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Wing Bolts freezing in hangar

SHORTRV7

Well Known Member
Ok guys question: I am finally ready to install the close tolerance bolts in my -7. My hangar is freezing cold..... Will putting the bolts on dry ice still help shrink enough to get them in??? Should I put heat lamps on the spar???? or wait until warmer weather?? Anyone done this in really really cold weather??
 
Just keep the wing bolts at the same temp as the center section. I personally think that trying to freeze them is futile (as is heating skins before riveting them) because aluminum has a very low specific heat.

As for what I did -- I put a little fresh engine oil on the bolts (some folks use lubriplate, etc), made sure the wings were aligned with drift pins and then drove the bolts in with my rivet gun and a flush rivet set. This was at the suggestion of several repeat builders. It worked perfectly and getting those bolts in was no big deal at all.
 
Just keep the wing bolts at the same temp as the center section. I personally think that trying to freeze them is futile (as is heating skins before riveting them) because aluminum has a very low specific heat.

As for what I did -- I put a little fresh engine oil on the bolts (some folks use lubriplate, etc), made sure the wings were aligned with drift pins and then drove the bolts in with my rivet gun and a flush rivet set. This was at the suggestion of several repeat builders. It worked perfectly and getting those bolts in was no big deal at all.

I did this with my -6A bolts (and there's lots more of them) but used a brass rivet set that did not mar or otherwise affect the finish of the bolts.
 
If my calculations are correct, the difference in diameter of a half-inch steel bolt is slightly under 0.001 over a temperature difference of 200 degrees (F). So, the size difference for your bolt on dry ice (close to -100 F) in a freezing hangar should be about half a thousandth. I actually put mine in liquid nitrogen (happen to have this handy in my laboratory at work) and it didn't really seem to help. I just ended up with frozen LPS1 that fell off of the bolt. My suggestion is just use the LPS1 without the cooling.

My two cents worth of experience. (BTW, I used the coefficient of thermal expansion for stainless, which is higher than most other steels - its what I had handy).

greg

P.S. and the standard practice is to NOT get any lubrication on the threads, otherwise the torque values for the nut will be incorrect.
 
Here is what I did and it was amazingly easy.
I used alcohol (as pure as you can get it) and dry ice in a coffee can, one bolt the time. Leave each bolt in the dry ice for just a few minutes (3-4) and then insert them in. Just make sure the holes are lined up, using some cheap hardware store bolts and leave only one out. Then as you put one good bolt in, pull another one out and get it ready for the second bolt. I hardly had to bang on them with a light hammer and that was only for the last bit of the bolt to go all the way. $8-$10 worth of dry ice/alcohol saved me lots of cussing. Try it and you will be amazed.
 
That makes sense...

Here is what I did and it was amazingly easy.
I used alcohol (as pure as you can get it) and dry ice in a coffee can, one bolt the time. Leave each bolt in the dry ice for just a few minutes (3-4) and then insert them in. Just make sure the holes are lined up, using some cheap hardware store bolts and leave only one out. Then as you put one good bolt in, pull another one out and get it ready for the second bolt. I hardly had to bang on them with a light hammer and that was only for the last bit of the bolt to go all the way. $8-$10 worth of dry ice/alcohol saved me lots of cussing. Try it and you will be amazed.

...if Greg's calculations are correct - the 0.0005 inch difference he mentions is the difference between a slip fit and an interference fit...

Good idea on the alcohol....:)
 
Did the oil on the bolts stay after dry ice

Here is what I did and it was amazingly easy.
I used alcohol (as pure as you can get it) and dry ice in a coffee can, one bolt the time. Leave each bolt in the dry ice for just a few minutes (3-4) and then insert them in. Just make sure the holes are lined up, using some cheap hardware store bolts and leave only one out. Then as you put one good bolt in, pull another one out and get it ready for the second bolt. I hardly had to bang on them with a light hammer and that was only for the last bit of the bolt to go all the way. $8-$10 worth of dry ice/alcohol saved me lots of cussing. Try it and you will be amazed.

When you pulled them from the Dry Ice, were you able to put oil or LPS-1 on the bolts?????
 
T2

I always get a mental image of the frozen and crumbling Terminator cop in T2 when he gets washed up in the liquid nitrogen. Unlike wing bolts, he melted back together when things warmed up.
LPS-2 and gentle persuasion worked for me.
 
Wing Bolts

I used liquid nitrogen and a flat rivet set. Worked great.... I've done this now on five different RV's.....




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavafa
Here is what I did and it was amazingly easy.
I used alcohol (as pure as you can get it) and dry ice in a coffee can, one bolt the time. Leave each bolt in the dry ice for just a few minutes (3-4) and then insert them in. Just make sure the holes are lined up, using some cheap hardware store bolts and leave only one out. Then as you put one good bolt in, pull another one out and get it ready for the second bolt. I hardly had to bang on them with a light hammer and that was only for the last bit of the bolt to go all the way. $8-$10 worth of dry ice/alcohol saved me lots of cussing. Try it and you will be amazed.

...if Greg's calculations are correct - the 0.0005 inch difference he mentions is the difference between a slip fit and an interference fit...

Good idea on the alcohol....
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
RV-6A VSB (Very Slow Build)
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
 
. . . Anyone done this in really really cold weather??
I recently inserted the close tolerance bolts on my right wing 2 weeks ago. The temperature in the hangar was hovering somewhere around 30-35 deg F. I had previously inserted 4 7/16 not-so-close tolerance hardware bolts in the wing (Although it was a bit of a wrestling match at the time, for my helpful friend and me, we were able to finally get the HW bolts in with minimal issues). When it came time for installing the close tolerance bolts I did not use any lubricant, I did not freeze the bolts. While a friend grabbed the wing tip end and gently moved the wing as needed, I simply drove out one of the HW bolts while leaving the other three in place. I then took my nondescript claw hammer and tapped the close tolerance bolt a handful of times to drive it into the hole. It went in like it belonged there. I then repeated the process for the other 7/16 close tolerance bolts. None of this turned out to be a problem what so ever even without any type of treatment to the bolts.

I have to admit I had the same feelings as everyone else had about getting the bolts in. I truly thought I was in for a battle. It turned out to be one of those tasks that was similar to building the fuel tanks and using ProSeal. More of a problem in my head than it really turned out to be in real life.

However, there was one aspect of installing the close tolerance bolts that proved to be a real pain in the neck (or backside). Every time I read about installing these bolts, there was a great deal of discussion about how to get the bolts into the holes. That is not the true problem when installing these on an "A" model. The real problem is how to get those two bottom nuts on and tightened up on the 7/16 bolts. The landing gear web restricts you from being able to get a wrench onto that nut. If that webbing were just 1/4 to 1/2 higher everything would work just fine, but it is not. Question to Vans or other engineers out there. Can that landing gear webbing be redesigned to allow for a wrench into that space?

Getting a wrench onto the outboard bottom 7/16 nut proved to be much more of a problem than getting the bolts in ever did. So, FYI for anyone who has not already come across this issue here was my solution.

I had thought about grinding down an old wrench to allow it to reach in under the landing gear webbing and was prepared to go down that road until I discovered that I could take an 11/16 crow foot wrench on the end of my ratchet and wedge it just right in the small space between the bolt end and the landing gear webbing (of course this is all while laying prone in the floor of the cockpit reaching between the leg gear structure and the spar carry through). I could just hold it tight enough to keep the nut from turning as I then placed an air wrench on the bolt head and turned the bolt until it finally tightened the nut. I know this is not good practice to turn a bolt to tighten a nut but there is absolutely no way to turn the nut in that tight space.

I am sure all of those repeat builders out there see this task as just another task to accomplish and therefore not really that big of a deal. However, for a first time builder it would have been great to have had some heads up on how to best accomplish this feat. Left to my own imaginings, I did come up with a solution. Maybe it was not the best, maybe someone else has a better method. If so, I would have loved to have heard about it before I began the process but it is past me now. I was able to successfully get the bolts secured using this method. For those yet to experience this task on "A" models, you now have some insight on my solution. Perhaps it will keep you from having to scratch your head as I did.
 
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Completed Wing Bolts

I want to thank all of you here that responded to the Tread, Vans Airforce is the best.
Installing the bolts was by no means easy, but went pretty well. The temperature in my hangar was around 34 degrees. The method I used was to put a bolt on dry ice for about 5 minuets, I then oiled (motor oil) the receiving hole in the spar. This seemed to work well, however one person responded to the tread and put them in dry. They did take a fair amount of hammering with a brass blunt punch to not harm the bolt head. Would you believe the last bolt was the hardest of them all!!!
Anyway, thanks to all and I hope this tread helps others.
 
Don,
How far along are you on your build? Where in OK are you building?

I am building at Tuttle, OK. I moved my 9A to the airport about three weeks ago. I was able to get the right wing on before our cold, ice, snow hit but have not been back out to the hangar since then to make any further progress. The left wing is ready to put on if I can just get out to the hangar to work on it.

Since moving to the airport my ability to work on the airplane has changed dramatically. My shop at the house was insulated and heated. The hangar has neither. It is a drastic difference especially since this is turning out to be one of the coldest and snowiest winters we have had in a long time.
 
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