What to do about RV-12 GPS?

[RudiGreyling]

Hi RVators,

I had a brief email discussion with Scot at Vans if they are going to make the GARMIN GPS also a Mandatory Purchase to get E-LSA status. The short answer is YES, you will have to choose between a 296, 396 or 496 in the avionics package, but you HAVE to take at least one.

I tried to tell him that the GARMIN GPS is a removable unit on the RV12, many pilots has one already, and that there are many GARMIN models that will fit the current RV12 panel hole. Not even to start to discuss different Base Maps for international customers, and the non WX satellite functionality for NON USA customers.

I can understand them being sticky about an Engine, Prop, Airframe components, but a removable Garmin GPS As long as you build the panel to take the Garmin Removable GPS why should they be so sticky about forcing us to buy GPS from them to keep E-LSA compliant. It does not make sense for this specific REMOVABLE component on the RV12 panel.

So I wanted to create a poll to see if I am alone, or gather some momentum on this issue. I would be interested to see what people think.

EDIT: SEE UPDATE POST #21 BELOW

Regards
Rudi

 

[Reilly]

I am not at all happy if they choose to do this. I already have my own 296 so why should I be forced to purchase another one.

 

[Fl Mac]

Hi RVators,

I had a brief email discussion with Scot at Vans if they are going to make the GARMIN GPS also a Mandatory Purchase to get E-LSA status. The short answer is YES, you will have to choose between a 296, 396 or 496 in the avionics package, but you HAVE to take at least one.

I tried to tell him that the GARMIN GPS is a removable unit on the RV12, many pilots has one already, and that there are many GARMIN models that will fit that hole. Not even to start to discuss different Base Maps for international customers, and the non WX satellite functionality for NON USA customers.

I can understand them being sticky about an Engine, Prop, Airframe components, but a removable Garmin GPS As long as you build the panel to take the Gamin Removable GPS why should they be so sticky about forcing us to buy GPS from them to keep E-LSA compliant. It does not make sense for this specific REMOVABLE component on the RV12 panel.

So I wanted to create a poll to see if I am alone, or gather some momentum on this issue. I would be interested to see what people think.

Regards
Rudi

You are not alone.

They have the ability to be more flexible on this issue, they just chose not to be. If you are building the plane yourself, I realy do not see an overwhelming reason to do E-LSA.

 

[Fl Mac]

I was just thinking about another issue. I have no intension of selling my unfinished kit, but with the economy the way it is you never know. If all components have to be purchased from Van's what does that do with the private sale of kit parts. If I sell my tail and wings to someone and they are not on record with Van's as having purchased them, can they get E-LSA? Will there have to be a process to transfer my sales receipt to the new person? This could make the value of the kits that we are purchasing $0.

Also, I live less than an hour from Lockwood aviation (the largest Rotax service center). I can see a benefit from purchasing the engine from them.

 

[Geico266]

I was just thinking about another issue. I have no intension of selling my unfinished kit, but with the economy the way it is you never know. If all components have to be purchased from Van's what does that do with the private sale of kit parts. If I sell my tail and wings to someone and they are not on record with Van's as having purchased them, can they get E-LSA? Will there have to be a process to transfer my sales receipt to the new person? This could make the value of the kits that we are purchasing $0.

Also, I live less than an hour from Lockwood aviation (the largest Rotax service center). I can see a benefit from purchasing the engine from them.

All you need to do is contact Van's and they will "transfer" your builder number and the kits to someone else.

Lockwood is a fine Rotax service center, great people, but the engine will have to be bought from Vans, at a (I'm guessing) lower cost.

 

[ccarter]

Uh... that's a no brainer

As pilots we are always mindful of efficiency. I'm not building (or going to build) a 12 but continue toying with the idea of a 3B someday. In fact I was having a discussion with myself in the shower just yesterday about how I would equip a 3B panel now that the 7 build is behind me. What could I do to make it better. One of the first issues that came up was the ability to move my 496 between the 7 and the 3B (since I can only be in 1 cockpit at a time).

 

[Fl Mac]

All you need to do is contact Van's and they will "transfer" your builder number and the kits to someone else.

Lockwood is a fine Rotax service center, great people, but the engine will have to be bought from Vans, at a (I'm guessing) lower cost.

Transferring the builder number works.

Lower cost would be good. Hope Vans will have the volume to do that. If creating a captive audience will produce lower costs, I am on board with the concept. I wonder if shipping the engine all the way across the country will blow any savings out of the water.

 

[BrentHumphreys]

The wings are removable too. Shouldn't you be able to buy them from somewhere else

 

[RudiGreyling]

The wings are removable too. Shouldn't you be able to buy them from somewhere else

Brent, naughty you

 

[jte65]

I have a 296 but will buy the 496

I will buy the 496 (looks like I must buy one of them anyway given I am building as an E-LSA). I have a 296 for my Skyhawk but I do like the XM weather option and also like the faster refresh and other upgrades associated with the 496 so I had wanted to upgrade anyway. Might just sell my 296 on eBay once I have the 496.

Now, if they were to offer the new 696 as an option, I have to say I would seriously consider going that route. The screen is spectacular and the unit looks much less like a portable unit. Unfortunately, that changes the panel configuration so it does not look like that is coming anytime soon.

 

[RudiGreyling]

I will buy the 496 (looks like I must buy one of them anyway given I am building as an E-LSA). I have a 296 for my Skyhawk but I do like the XM weather option and also like the faster refresh and other upgrades associated with the 496 so I had wanted to upgrade anyway. Might just sell my 296 on eBay once I have the 496.<SNIP>

Hi Jet, yip the 496 is a good upgrade, if you "have" to. If I "have" to then I would like the 495 non WX unit + African maps since the WX satelites do not cover non USA territories, so it is functionality i can't use even if i wanted to.

Rudi

 

[Phyrcooler]

Van's needs to do a budget panel!!

While my build plans are on hold temporarily... (twins... resulting in "oh, I think we need a bigger house!)... I am still hoping that VAN's will do a much more basic/budget panel and approve it for ELSA. Basic instruments (steam or MGL Velocity Singles), ICOM radio, lower cost transponder, and no GPS (let the pilot use his own hand held). This would cut thousands off the build cost - opening up this project to more budget builders - while maintaining ELSA certification that VAN's wants us to build under.

DJ

 

[Fl Mac]

While my build plans are on hold temporarily... (twins... resulting in "oh, I think we need a bigger house!)... I am still hoping that VAN's will do a much more basic/budget panel and approve it for ELSA. Basic instruments (steam or MGL Velocity Singles), ICOM radio, lower cost transponder, and no GPS (let the pilot use his own hand held). This would cut thousands off the build cost - opening up this project to more budget builders - while maintaining ELSA certification that VAN's wants us to build under.

DJ

Now you are going to have to build 2 twelve's.

 

[N941WR]

While my build plans are on hold temporarily... (twins... resulting in "oh, I think we need a bigger house!)... I am still hoping that VAN's will do a much more basic/budget panel and approve it for ELSA. Basic instruments (steam or MGL Velocity Singles), ICOM radio, lower cost transponder, and no GPS (let the pilot use his own hand held). This would cut thousands off the build cost - opening up this project to more budget builders - while maintaining ELSA certification that VAN's wants us to build under.

DJ

DJ,

My panel is similar to Van's (D100 EFIS w/ D10 EMS, 496, Icom radio, G320 transponder, and intercom).

Linking the D180 with the Garmin really gives the pilot a lot of great options and is lighter than steam gauges. The weight issue being critical to LSA aircraft, that probably had a LOT to do with Van's selection.

Why he went with the 327 transponder I don't know. It may be lighter than the 320. As a VFR pilot, I felt the 320 was the best option for me. Had the Icom 210 been out when I was putting my panel together, I would have used that and its internal intercom, saving even more weight.

Bang for the pound is just so good with the Dynon's, again, that has to be what Van's was thinking. Besides, had they gone with steam gauges, people would be complaining about "why not Dynons?"

PS. Good to hear the twins are doing well! Nora told me I need to build a four seater now.

 

[Little_Richard]

I don't think this is something Vans really wants to do. I think they are kind of being forced into it by the FAA in a way.

The way I understand it is to be registered as ELSA, the plane you have built (or are building) has to match the original plane that was originally approved by the FAA themselves.

Since Vans is the one that will be giving you the registration paperwork (as I understand again) they are the ones that are taking on the responsibility of proving the plane was built EXACTLY to the plans and that the plane has been equipped EXACTLY like the one that was originally approved.

Without having records to show you have purchased ALL of the parts and equipment that is supposed to be in the plane, they have no way to know whether or not it was built like it is supposed to be built and like it was approved to be built.

I agree, it makes sense that if you already have a component like the GPS or want to use a motor bought from somewhere else that should be OK, but it would be a paperwork / bookkeeping NIGHTMARE for VANS and they would likely have to raise the price on everything and it is just cheaper in the long run if everyone just buys all of the CORRECT and APPROVED parts from Vans.

Otherwise, you can always build it for approval as E-AB and you would not have to buy all these components from Vans if you did not want to.

Again, this is just the way I understand the ELSA licensing and since I am not part of the FAA, there may be holes in what I have said...

 

[Mel]

Since Vans is the one that will be giving you the registration paperwork (as I understand again) they are the ones that are taking on the responsibility of proving the plane was built EXACTLY to the plans and that the plane has been equipped EXACTLY like the one that was originally approved.

Richard, Everything you say is true except for the above paragraph. It is the responsibility of the applicant to show the inspector that the plans and instructions were followed to the letter. The kit manufacturer must provide the applicant with a "Statement of Compliance" form 8130-15 that states that everything provided in the kit is per the original SLSA aircraft. Unless HE provides everything, he has no way of knowing that "your" stuff complies.

 

[JohnF]

mandastory Garmin RV-12

I am disappointed that I have to purchase a Garmin that I do not need or want.

I use an Anywhere Map and get aeronautical data base updates every 28-days for $105 per year. Updates to terrain, waterways, etc, come free.

Also I can display XM weather via Bluetooth and GPS link from/to stand-alone GPS into my iPAQ 4700 PDA display which I will keep and use no matter what.

AW Map gives me NMEA output to couple into the autopilot...will Garmin? I am uncertain.

What does it cost to keep the aeronautical data base updated with a Garmin? And how often is an update published even if you wanted to pay whatever it cost?

My personal opinion is that Van made one of his rare bad decisions in the selection/mandating of a Garmin.

 

[todehnal]

The Survey

If the current vote tally representation is proportional to the RV-12 starts, that means that at least 35 of us are wanting to go E-AB. The latest info regarding the move to alter the current E-AB rule is very promising and we may, just may, be able to pull it off. I'm sure that most everyone knows that only minor wording changes, to plug some holes in the current rule, as well as some enforcement action items, is likely to be presented by the FAA soon. Let's hope so. If that happens, hopefully Van's will follow through on getting the 12 kit approved, as supplied, for E-AB, and save us all a bunch of headaches.

I think the 12 is a real piece of engineering marvel and I am building it to plan, with only minor, personal, enhancements. The panel representing the majority of those changes. E-AB allows me to do that, without burdening Van's with my personal wants. Sure, I'll have more time to fly off, but I'll accept some additional solo flight time anytime! Bottom line; I don't want to have to built it, get it signed off, and then make it like I want it. Please don't force us to do that. It would be such a waste, and benefits no one.

Just my thoughts

Tom

 

[Peterk]

Van's doesn't need to approve it as EAB for you to go EAB. You can do that yourself...just convince the FAA/DAR. If you have done all of the record keeping etc I'm not sure you wouldn't have a good chance. Having completed all that is involved so far it is definitely not a "quick build". The speed is in the blind rivets, not in pre-assembled parts. In fact the only thing pre-assembled is the spar but it is with almost all kits. Pre-drilled holes are common in many EAB's as well. In fact some builders that have had particular DAR's watching their progress have agreed to sign it off as an EAB (according to some earlier on this forum). Personally, Van's set-up is fine with me. If it flies like the other Van aircraft (control excellence) and is powered by the world-wide endorsed Rotax....all for less than $60,000...what do I care about avionics. That is far down my list. Why anyone would consider a 696 for an RV12 I have no idea. Get a Baron.

 

[RudiGreyling]

<SNIP>

Since Vans is the one that will be giving you the registration paperwork (as I understand again) they are the ones that are taking on the responsibility of proving the plane was built EXACTLY to the plans and that the plane has been equipped EXACTLY like the one that was originally approved.

Without having records to show you have purchased ALL of the parts and equipment that is supposed to be in the plane, they have no way to know whether or not it was built like it is supposed to be built and like it was approved to be built.

I agree, it makes sense that if you already have a component like the GPS or want to use a motor bought from somewhere else that should be OK, but it would be a paperwork / bookkeeping NIGHTMARE for VANS and they would likely have to raise the price on everything and it is just cheaper in the long run if everyone just buys all of the CORRECT and APPROVED parts from Vans.
<SNIP>

Hi Little Richard,

most of what you say is try, except the GPS is a REMOVABLE component Designed like that from the start. Pilots carry it from plane to plane. It is NOT like an ENGINE, or any other airframe components. I think being sticky about a having to buy GPS as part of the avionics package to keep E-LSA is pushing it a bit far. If you bought all the panel components and the rest of the avionics then you are commited to the Garmin in anycase. Let us re-use our own existing Garmins please.

Regards
Rudi

 

[RudiGreyling]

UPDATE:

RVators,

I received a follow up email from Scott at Vans.

He says they will offer all the GARMIN GPS of the 296 size and format and International Databases and non WX 495 as an option in the Avionics package.

I think that will increase the market of people that will upgrade, becuase they "have" to.... We should get a better price as part of the Garmin Stack Package. Then you lucky USA guys can flock of your old ones on Ebay!

Anycase back to the build for me, hopefully when they release the Avionics Package I will be ready to order.

Regards
Rudi

 

[N941WR]

Rudi,

You bring up a good point. Why does Van's even care about a GPS? Airplanes have actually been known to fly without them. Heck, once I even owned a plane with a single non-powered navigation instrument. If I remember correctly, they called it a compass.

 

[Threetracker]

I already have a Garmin 396...with weather

I treated myself to a 396 with weather two years ago and it is mounted as a portable in my Ercoupe. I love it and there certainly isn't a need for a fancy GPS in a coupe...but it surely is fun and also efficient.

In my RV-12 my first chopice would be to move the com and transponder to the glove box location and put a Garmin 696 in the center panel. I know that the RV-12 isn't a Baron...but this is going to be quite an efficient litlle cross country trooper and I expect to spend a number of weekends zipping around Oregon and Washinington states from Albany, Oregon. Carrie and I would love an RV-10...but let's face it; we ca neither afford to operate a 10 and will enjoy more options than the Ercoupe allows. A Garmin 696 is pennies more...and it's a great toy.

I answered the poll by saying that I will go AB ...my first choice would be to just move some boxes from center to the right side and go 696.

Jay and Carrie Sluiter
Albany, OR
N124CS reserved

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Hi Little Richard,

most of what you say is try, except the GPS is a REMOVABLE component Designed like that from the start. Pilots carry it from plane to plane. It is NOT like an ENGINE, or any other airframe components. I think being sticky about a having to buy GPS as part of the avionics package to keep E-LSA is pushing it a bit far. If you bought all the panel components and the rest of the avionics then you are commited to the Garmin in anycase. Let us re-use our own existing Garmins please.

Regards
Rudi

Your correct, it is removable. But you're forgetting one major thing, it does connect to the airplane through a standardized pre-built harness that will allow the builder to do the initial installation in about 10 minutes. This harness will only work with the Garmin 2-49X series of portables.
Are you willing to pay the addition costs that would be involved in assisting every customer that called for help asking "what pin should I connect to with my brand XX GPS". Or are you willing to pay the additional costs involved in maintaining the records of hundreds of customers as to whether their avionics kit needs a GPS shipped in it or not, and then are you willing to pay the additional costs involved because a pre-negotiated avionics package price is being impacted because you want to delete part of it.
The point is Rudi, it is a lot more complicated that you probably imagine.
So, to avoid all of the above and more, if you already have a Garmin portable of the correct model, sell it to your brother in law, or on E-bay, and get on with finishing your RV-12.

 

[RudiGreyling]

Your correct, it is removable. But you're forgetting one major thing, it does connect to the airplane through a standardized pre-built harness that will allow the builder to do the initial installation in about 10 minutes. This harness will only work with the Garmin 2-49X series of portables.
Are you willing to pay the addition costs that would be involved in assisting every customer that called for help asking "what pin should I connect to with my brand XX GPS". Or are you willing to pay the additional costs involved in maintaining the records of hundreds of customers as to whether their avionics kit needs a GPS shipped in it or not, and then are you willing to pay the additional costs involved because a pre-negotiated avionics package price is being impacted because you want to delete part of it.
The point is Rudi, it is a lot more complicated that you probably imagine.
So, to avoid all of the above and more, if you already have a Garmin portable of the correct model, sell it to your brother in law, or on E-bay, and get on with finishing your RV-12.

Hi Scot, I am only talking about re-using our existing 2 to 49x series of GARMIN portables that will fit the current RV12 harness and panel. Those are the most popular series of aviation GPS in any case. I am not talking EAB and changing panel or wiring or other brand xx GPS. It would be a simple for Vans to offer the Avionics package without the GPS and then add it as an option.
I think being sticky about E-LSA status becuase I did not buy my GARMIN 2 to 49x portable from VANS even though I built the panel to take it, is stretching it a bit, looks like 50% of E-LSA builders thinks so too, or that is what poll indicate

Remember the discount you get for the new GARMIN GPS as part of avionics package you will loose on selling your existing GARMIN GPS at 2nd hand used price. So you are not gaining anything, just an unnesasary hassle.

Regards
Rudi

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Or are you willing to pay the additional costs involved in maintaining the records of hundreds of customers as to whether their avionics kit needs a GPS shipped in it or not, and then are you willing to pay the additional costs involved because a pre-negotiated avionics package price is being impacted because you want to delete part of it.
The point is Rudi, it is a lot more complicated that you probably imagine.
So, to avoid all of the above and more, if you already have a Garmin portable of the correct model, sell it to your brother in law, or on E-bay, and get on with finishing your RV-12.

looks like 50% of E-LSA builders thinks so too, or that is what poll indicate

Regards
Rudi

Your poll would then imply that 50% of all RV-12 builders already own a Garmin 2/3/496 portable. I think that is highly unlikely.

One thing that you and other builders need to keep in mind is that you are purchasing a production line manufactured LSA airplane, that just happens to not be fully assembled. You are a member of the employee group that is working on the production line. The entire design and packaging of the kit is focused on this (If you happen to live outside of the USA, you are still buying the same kit). Try and buy a new car or truck now a days without a radio/stereo because you happen to already own one that you plan to install. It is not possible. Sure, you can buy it with the lowest grade of radio (equiv to an RV-12 with a 296) but it will still come with a radio. An RV-12 kit is the same way for all of the same reasons and many more. In case you were not aware, Van's has to sign an FAA 8130-15 form (for USA E-LSA builders) certifying that they provided the customer with all of the approved parts and documentation to build their RV-12 kit as an E-LSA. They can't do that if the did not sell you all of the parts.

You mention primarily allowing it to be deleted for people that already have the proper model...well then the guy that wants a different model will say, why is it ok for them and not for me...it never ends.
Like I said before, sell what you have and get on with your project. It maybe a bit of a hassle for the few individuals that end up in that position, but nothing like the hassle for Van's to deal with, to keep track of hundreds of customers and handling the paperwork to prove that they have the proper GPS even though Van's never sold it to them.

 

[MartySantic]

Should not be a Surprise To Anyone!

Nothing has changed. Van's has always indicated the 12 would be licensed in a certain manner. I fully support Van's with regard to their requirements as currently published. Thanks Scott for your candid comments. For those that have a problem, please sell the kit to someone who will abide, if you cannot honor the construction requirements. (I really had to comment!)

 

[Mel]

I'm gonna have to jump in here with my $.02.

You guys don't seem to understand that the RV-12 is being kitted as an E-LSA. The rules are different from E-AB. You can't pick what advantages you want from each category. You have to pick one or the other. Van's will be issuing a "Statement of Compliance" (form 8130-15) that says the kit is compliant with the ASTM standards and the prototype aircraft. He can't do that if he doesn't supply all of the materials that go into the aircraft.

 

[vernhendershott]

Hi Mel,

Very true as stated, but, Van's could very simply document the SLSA version as only having provision for a garmin GPS and then offer a $ 5.00 optional package to show us how to make any changes required for each of the garmin models or he could sell us whichever one we wished to purchase from him as an add on like he plans to do with lights and the other options.

This would make everyone happy and would not really cost him anything the certification of the original becomes simpler and we all get to do our own thing.

Best regards,
Vern

 

[L.Adamson]

Rudi,

You bring up a good point. Why does Van's even care about a GPS? Airplanes have actually been known to fly without them. Heck, once I even owned a plane with a single non-powered navigation instrument. If I remember correctly, they called it a compass.

That's true............

But then I've kept a line on every aviation "flight into terrain" accident for the last 40 years or so. A whole lot of airspace incursions too! I guess I'm what you call a GPS fanatic because I had one of the first moving map GPS's that Garmin released in the early nineties. I'm on my fifth aviation unit now, which is a Garmin 696 (a truly fantastic piece of equipment).

As to Van's, they lost two of there own, when they inadvertently entered IMC conditions. Surprisingly, too many pilots have done the same thing. This ranges from instructors to military, to commercial, as well as just low or high time private pilots; and even instructions from controllers.

And of course, this is an area where technology such as detailed moving map GPS and especially synthetic vision can improve the odds. There have been many cases, where the use of a good moving map GPS would have changed the outcome. This has been spelled out in several advisory board findings.

So, while many airplanes have flown without them, a lot of aircraft have also perished because they didn't have them! With all of today's restricted air spaces, etc; a GPS is really just a very good piece of technology, even if you don't fly in the mountains or at night. It's just one of the most practical instruments you can have!

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[JBPILOT]

Pardon a twist to this thread

I appreciate a good GPS. I can't decide if WX & monthly cost are worthwhile. I realize it is another potential tool for safety, but almost all my flying is in a fairly sparsely populated part of the country, and this plane is a fair-weather plane in my opinion.

Thinking 495. Opinions appreciated.

John Bender

 

[L.Adamson]

I appreciate a good GPS. I can't decide if WX & monthly cost are worthwhile. I realize it is another potential tool for safety, but almost all my flying is in a fairly sparsely populated part of the country, and this plane is a fair-weather plane in my opinion.

Thinking 495. Opinions appreciated.

All depends where you live I suppose. I'm in the mountain west, and we make weekend breakfast/brunch runs to a few surrounding states. The XM satellite weather has been extremely valuable for making real time on the spot decisions, when it comes to this time of year. I'm just using the cheaper version myself.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[Mel]

I love my 495!

I'm VFR and what you might call a "fair weather" pilot.
The WX is not worth the extra expense for me.
But that's me. YMMV!

 

[Phyrcooler]

...snip...The weight issue being critical to LSA aircraft, that probably had a LOT to do with Van's selection. ...snip...

Bang for the pound is just so good with the Dynon's, again, that has to be what Van's was thinking. Besides, had they gone with steam gauges, people would be complaining about "why not Dynons?"

PS. Good to hear the twins are doing well! Nora told me I need to build a four seater now.

I understand what you are saying... but politely have to disagree. The RV-12 has a great useful load... and I don't think that approving a very basic VFR panel (and possibly a couple pounds) would change that. I recently flew a Decathlon with minimal instruments, and spent the whole time looking out the window!

Personally, I still plan to build it as originally designed. But as the economy shrinks... I can't help but wonder if they'd have more sales if you could cut $5,000 or $6,000 out of the panel. At some point (even for me) those dollars may be the difference between building and not building.

(on a side note... the boys are doing well... just NOT sleeping as much as mommy and daddy would like!!! We are getting worked over! I'm so tired... I didn't get FL MAC's comment about building 2 twelves... until today I re-read it and went oh.. duh... there's 4 of us now! )
DJ

 

[RudiGreyling]

way of poll original question...

Wow I think we are getting way off topic here, and some people are getting heated ready for more debate.

My orignal statement and question still remain, Should we be forced to buy an DESIGNED and APPROVED REMOVABLE component i.e GARMIN 2-49x GPS that fits in the approved E-LSA RV12, to keep E-LSA status from vans???

And yes I think the poll is saying that +/- 50% of pilots that want to build an E-LSA RV12 have a compatible 2-49x GARMIN already that will fit the approved panel.

Regards
Rudi

 

[Dave Cole]

Simple answer...yes

Yes. If you want a Van's Aircraft certified E-LSA RV-12, you have to buy the entire kit from Van's exactly as designed by Van's.

"Should you" have to buy the "removable" GPS? Yes.

It's as simple as that.

 

[RudiGreyling]

"Should you be forced" was the question if answer is "YES" then "Why?" for this REMOVABLE component that we have already and in no way will make it less E-LSA? (me just being naughty to keep debate light hearted)

Anycase it does not look like I am going to win this one Anybody want an old 296 with South African Maps, it will serve you well on your African Safari when you come and visit me? he he

Regards
Rudi

 

[Mark Henderson]

It would be nice if Van's showed some flexibility on the GPS. Lots of people are using Garmin's and don't need the added expense of another GPS. I am still using a 295 that I would not want to put in the panel, so I am not one of those affected. But on behalf of those that don't need an upgrade, let them use what they have. It should not be that hard for a DAR to determine if the plane has a GPS on the Van's ELSA list.

If I wasn't already committed to going to Turkey on my honeymoon I'd take you up on your 296 offer and do the safari intead.

 

[gblwy]

695/696

Several folk seem interested in this "option". If SteinAir provides the wiring harness for the RV-12, presumably they could provide an alternative harness for a 695/6 if enough folk wanted it. Initially, this would be restricted to those prepared to stray from the LSA fold, but maybe over time Vans might embrace this as a valid option.

In the same way that the seats are subcontracted out, and you can opt to pay more for leather etc., why could the harness not also be subcontracted out with additional cost options. That way Stein, and not Vans, picks up any support issues (which should be minimal because it is still a standard, albeit different, harness).

Here's hoping...Keith

 

[Reilly]

I also think that a bit of flexibility here would be appreciated.

I have a 296 and would prefer to use it and save on some cost if possible.

I do understand what Vans is trying to do but I am sure that a win win senario could be reached here.

 

[EngineLogics]

Rudi,

Did is nou van al die gedebateer dad ek nou al heeltemal gemoedsbekaked geraak het.

Hoe gaan did daar in die land van melk en heuning. Ek is n Namibiaan wat hier in Houston, Texas woon. Vlieg n RV-4,


Groete

"Should you be forced" was the question if answer is "YES" then "Why?" for this REMOVABLE component that we have already and in no way will make it less E-LSA? (me just being naughty to keep debate light hearted)

Anycase it does not look like I am going to win this one Anybody want an old 296 with South African Maps, it will serve you well on your African Safari when you come and visit me? he he

Regards
Rudi