What is your full flap go around technique?

[ArVeeNiner]

So, I've had to do a couple of full flap go arounds in the 20 hours of flying my plane. My brain is still calibrated for those draggy planes of the past so during a go around, I apply full power, level off, suck up the flaps, then climb As we have all discovered, these planes accelerate rather quickly and it's easy to exceed the flap extension speed before the flaps are completely retracted.

So, what is a good full flap go around procedure? Perhaps partial power then raise flaps, then full power?

 

[mcattell]

The flaps on my RV-9A are set to retract fully at a touch of a button with my flap control system. I apply full power and press the button. No big deal for an RV to quickly retract the flaps fully and no big sink like in a Cessna. I was told this when I first started flying my RV and didn't believe it either. So at first I experimented at altitude and sure enough.

 

[PCHunt]

Go around Technique

Apply full power for go-around.
Raise nose as necessary to keep airspeed below flap limit speed.
Accept, and be grateful for, the superior climb rate.
After flaps are retracted, lower nose to desired airspeed.
Do not exceed 200 kts indicated beneath Class B airspace.

(Airspeed is controlled by pitch attitude, not power.) ...........There now, that oughta start a never-ending debate!

 

[John Clark]

(Airspeed is controlled by pitch attitude, not power.) ...........There now, that oughta start a never-ending debate!

True most of the time, except perhaps on an ILS, then it becomes pitch to the glideslope, and throttle for airspeed.

Just thought I'd help start the debate

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[roee]

Pitch for Vy

To reinforce Pete's point, I think, the key element is pitch for the desired airspeed. What I generally do (not yet in an RV, but should apply just the same) is this: Not "full power, level off, raise the flaps, climb", but rather "full power, pitch for Vy, raise the flaps, continue to pitch for Vy". That's the immediate go-around. Then, sometime after that, you can adjust pitch for cruise climb when appropriate, depending on terrain, etc.

 

[PCHunt]

Respectfully disagree

John, may I respectfully disagree: When on an ILS, in the good ole days flying my Boeing XXX, or my Piper Warrior, I would always trim for airspeed, and vary the throttle to maintain glideslope.

I think it is my Navy training for carrier landings that taught me that. And many of my cockpit-mates commented on how closely I stayed to the appropriate airspeed on final.

You say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe.

Whatever works. In reality, it is the proper combination of pitch, or angle-of-attack, and power that makes the plane perform as the pilot wishes.

With the exception of cruise flight, where the power is fixed, I prefer to "pitch for airspeed."

And pitch is more powerful: If you and I fly in any powered airplane, and I control the pitch with you controlling the throttle, I can maintain any given airspeed, and you can't change the airspeed with the throttle.

And then there's gliders. How do you control the airspeed in a glider?

Anyway, just having fun with an old never-ending-debate.

True most of the time, except perhaps on an ILS, then it becomes pitch to the glideslope, and throttle for airspeed.

Just thought I'd help start the debate

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[sailvi767]

There is no need to level off on the go around. Once you go around you want to start climbing ASAP. You will have no problem in a RV retracting the flaps while climbing. Attempting to level the aircraft off could easily result in a decent if you get some other distraction which could be a very bad thing. The level off is what is also leading to your flap overspeed issue.

George

 

[pierre smith]

Easy-peasy.

And then there's gliders. How do you control the airspeed in a glider?

.

Uphill goes slower and downhill you're faster....from my very first flying lesson.

Best,

 

[terrykohler]

You're Not Alone on the Go-Arounds

So, I've had to do a couple of full flap go arounds in the 20 hours of flying my plane. My brain is still calibrated for those draggy planes of the past so during a go around, I apply full power, level off, suck up the flaps, then climb As we have all discovered, these planes accelerate rather quickly and it's easy to exceed the flap extension speed before the flaps are completely retracted.

So, what is a good full flap go around procedure? Perhaps partial power then raise flaps, then full power?

Just after I finished my 9A, my first couple of attempts at a short field resulted in go-Arounds. Extra speed on an approach with a FP 9 is not a good thing. Loaded to gross, you shouldn't be over 65kts (I use 60) on a normal approach. For short field (again at gross), I use 55. You'll need to work out your own numbers, but they shouldn't be substantially different.
The technique you describe for go-around is good. Your first pitch should be to Vx. Once you've cleared obstacles, pitch to Vy. Next time you practice, take a look at your attitude at both of these speeds. Depending on your height and seating position, you will see where the horizon is in relation to your glare shield at full power. With a little practice, you should be able to hold these speeds without having to bring your eyes back and forth to the AS indicator.
As far as flap retraction, count how many seconds it takes for full retract. Use half this value for the initial retract, and complete retraction after you've established Vy.

John Clark:
This is the first time I find myself on the other side of the fence with you. I feel like I did when I first learned that Santa Claus wasn't real (just kidding, John).
In any event, I find low time instrument pilots tend to chase the glide slope with the stick. The approaches look like sine waves, sometimes with increasing amplitude. Having them focus on power to track the GS really smoothes things out and seems (at least to me) to shorten the learning cycle. Personally, I started out on the other side but became a true believer about half way thru my flying life.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

 

[Geeman]

Go arounds

I am new to flying the RV-6....last weekend. I came from having about 300 hours in a 172. Landing a C172 is obviously a piece of cake and I can count on one hand the number of times I had to do a go around due to a botched landing. Well I now have about 8 hours in the RV-6 and I got really really good at go arounds. I did more the first day than I did in three years in the Cessna. During a go around I applied full power and pitched up for airspeed. As I established a good climb I would start raising the flaps, never had a problem exceeding flab speed. I am happy to say, last night I flew solo and practiced a few more landings...no go arounds...no big bounces. I am getting the hang of it. These planes are awesome. Good luck. It is a blast...isn't it?

 

[terrykohler]

Think About This From Another Perspective

There is no need to level off on the go around. Once you go around you want to start climbing ASAP. You will have no problem in a RV retracting the flaps while climbing. Attempting to level the aircraft off could easily result in a decent if you get some other distraction which could be a very bad thing. The level off is what is also leading to your flap overspeed issue.

George

Most go-Arounds happen at short fields (you should practice these on longer runways, using a "target", but most pilots stop doing this once they've gotten their first ticket). I would not recommend a pitch to climb attitude without first acquiring sufficient speed to climb. This is especially true on a short field approach. You're not only asking for a stall, but you're also actually increasing the distance required to clear obstacles. Yes, many RVs, particularly those with 360's and CS props, can be pitched high immediately on takeoff, but the consequence of an engine failure at that point would be catastrophic (you can try it out at altitude). First Vx to clear obstacles (or at least 50 ft AGL, then Vy.
Whether I'm doing a go-around from 10 feet or 200 feet AGL, my speed shouldn't be substantially different, especially on a short field. I always want to make certain that I have sufficient speed before I pitch up. On a go-around, particularly on a short field, that's only going to happen if I level first.

Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

 

[John Clark]

Anyway, just having fun with an old never-ending-debate.

Me too, the physics haven't changed recently, it still takes power to climb and the big picture is about energy management.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

I'm interested in how the 9 compares to, say, the 7.,

When I was doing transition training with Tom Berge. He showed me that the RV can climb just fine with full flaps. His point, which I was to come to understand better, was that on a go-around, don't worry about the flaps.

Airspeed is obviously important, but as I headed for some trees on the left of the field, another item became just as important -- rudder.... lots and lots and LOTS of right rudder to counteract the torque.

The flaps? Not so much.

How does the 9 compare?

 

[jjconstant]

For me it all depends on how far into the flare you are. A friend of mine (who is a million times better and more experienced and certificated pilot than I am) and I have gone up in my plane and we do a game to see who can be lowest and slowest over the runway without letting the wheels touch. When you're that far behind the power curve I have found that there is definitely an area in the flap retraction cycle where you lose or gain lift. If you're really close to the runway and really slow and heavy you definitely want full power and get the nose to a normal climb angle, in this case decidedly lower than where it has been for most of the length of the runway My flaps retract fully with a flick of a switch. When my friend does this transition it's all very smooth, when I do it there is definitely a pitch transition/burble that happens around 20 degrees. There is also the possible factor of ground effect, even with the short wings. On the other end of the scale, when not that far behind the power curve, full power and full flaps is what many of us have used in phase one for the seemingly mandatory VFe structural test The conclusion I've come to is that for a normal go around I just go to full power, retract the flaps and slowly pitch for a climb attitude. Slowly, because the flaps have to be fully retracted for climb attitude to look right.

And + 1 for throttle controls glideslope, at least in this VFR pilot's brain...it just seems easier for me when I'm slowed down.

 

[sailvi767]

Most go-Arounds happen at short fields (you should practice these on longer runways, using a "target", but most pilots stop doing this once they've gotten their first ticket). I would not recommend a pitch to climb attitude without first acquiring sufficient speed to climb. This is especially true on a short field approach. You're not only asking for a stall, but you're also actually increasing the distance required to clear obstacles. Yes, many RVs, particularly those with 360's and CS props, can be pitched high immediately on takeoff, but the consequence of an engine failure at that point would be catastrophic (you can try it out at altitude). First Vx to clear obstacles (or at least 50 ft AGL, then Vy.
Whether I'm doing a go-around from 10 feet or 200 feet AGL, my speed shouldn't be substantially different, especially on a short field. I always want to make certain that I have sufficient speed before I pitch up. On a go-around, particularly on a short field, that's only going to happen if I level first.

Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

Terry, We may be talking about to slightly different things here. There is a rejected landing which is something that happens in close and very low and slow and a go around. My learning has always been a go around is something that happens after a missed approach. A rejected landing is what happens when you screw up the last few feet which is something I have a great deal of practice at in the RV. Even a 150 HP RV6 should have no trouble on a go around with a power application and a smooth rotation to a reasonable climb attitude with flap retraction after the pitch attitude for climb is established.
If you are IMC and are doing a go around I still maintain that a attempt to level the aircraft at the missed approach point is a mistake. I know I have never been taught that in any aircraft I have flown. As I mentioned at the start of this post there may be some terminology differences between a go around and a rejected landing.

George

 

[dhammer]

And then there's gliders. How do you control the airspeed in a glider?

No problem!! Point the nose where you want to touch down and the speed brake handle is now a throttle - back to slow down and forward to speed up.

 

[Snowflake]

As an interesting aside to the never-ending debate, when flying formation, you use power for forward-aft position (ie. for short term airspeed changes) and pitch for up-down changes (ie. for short term elevation gain or loss). Effectively, throttle for speed, and pitch for altitude. But it's not sustainable for more than a couple of seconds.

 

[Mike S]

Going back to the original question, my flap switch is close enough to the throttle---on purpose---that I can hit it with my thumb as I push the throttle all the way in.

With the Show Planes Flap Position System, all I need to do is hit the switch up, and it will retract the flaps all the way.

Quick, easy, and allows me to concentrate on flying the plane.

 

[ArVeeNiner]

Thanks for the replies. The next time I go up this weekend I'm going to try the various recommendations at altitude.

Thanks again!

 

[rvsxer]

John, may I respectfully disagree: When on an ILS, in the good ole days flying my Boeing XXX, or my Piper Warrior, I would always trim for airspeed, and vary the throttle to maintain glideslope.

I think it is my Navy training for carrier landings that taught me that. And many of my cockpit-mates commented on how closely I stayed to the appropriate airspeed on final.

You say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe.

Whatever works. In reality, it is the proper combination of pitch, or angle-of-attack, and power that makes the plane perform as the pilot wishes.

With the exception of cruise flight, where the power is fixed, I prefer to "pitch for airspeed."

And pitch is more powerful: If you and I fly in any powered airplane, and I control the pitch with you controlling the throttle, I can maintain any given airspeed, and you can't change the airspeed with the throttle.

And then there's gliders. How do you control the airspeed in a glider?

Anyway, just having fun with an old never-ending-debate.

An autopilot will generally fly a good ILS every time, and will "pitch to the glidepath" and "power (if available and variable) to speed". If the autopilot does such a good job, why not do it the way the autopilot does it? Why fly above and below the glideslope to hold speed? A visual approach is the same, only your desired path to the runway is defined by visual cues. 5,000 hours ago an instructor I had told me to "aim at the touchdown spot with the elevator inputs and as long as you weren't at idle or full throttle, control the speed with the power. This cured forever a problem I'd had with landings. (Sorry for the "thread creep").

 

[NickAir]

Auto Flaps for a go around

Going back to the original question, my flap switch is close enough to the throttle---on purpose---that I can hit it with my thumb as I push the throttle all the way in.

With the Show Planes Flap Position System, all I need to do is hit the switch up, and it will retract the flaps all the way.

Quick, easy, and allows me to concentrate on flying the plane.

I do love the auto flap switch just above and left of the throttle on my -7 to flick it with my thumb as needed to retract the flaps just like Mike above.

My -6 had the flap switch located on my grip which was OK, unless turbulent upon landing. In turbulence I prefer the panel flap switch compared to the grip switch.

My -6 and -7 both had near 8 full seconds of flap retraction time. This makes hitting the flap switch acceptable as an immediate, go around, action while moving to full throttle and never needing to remove my hand from the throttle.

Had tower tell me to, go around, the other day and it is just automatic to do.

Two CFI friends say that the, Go around, is one of the first things they teach a new student to be proficient at.

 

[Bavafa]

, I would always trim for airspeed, and vary the throttle to maintain glideslope.

Anyway, just having fun with an old never-ending-debate.

Ditto ! (adding a few more character to satisify the minimum of 10 character response

 

[N941WR]

Kelly,

Have you tried a balked landing stall? That is where you slow the plane down at altitude, in the landing configuration (full flaps), then add full power and pull it back into a climb, only you keep pulling it back until the thing stalls.

In the -9 (and most of the other RV's), all you will see is sky before it shudders and breaks.

I think you will be surprised at the attitude you will have before the stall onset occurs.

One word, keep the ball centered! Years ago, on my second solo flight in a then brand new 152 (I said it was a long time ago), I did this, the 152 rolled over on its back, and I split-S?ed out.

 

[N363RV]

Airspeed is your lifeline

Congratulations on your first flight!

You have many good answers in this thread and I have enjoyed the thread creep. I also flew cessna product(s) for years before building my vans rv 6a. I have performed go arounds in 150, 152, 172 and 182 as well as the 6A.

In the anemic 150 that I owned, I had to go around at a small airprot with a field elevation of about 700 feet. The runway is 27 feet wide, 1900 feet long with a grove of 65 foot trees about 400 feet away from the end of the runway and is usally pretty to fun to land on. But I was attempting to go in there on a windy day and just as I was about to touch down (flare being held), a gust of wind blew me off the centerline. I hammered the little airplane and honked the stall horn part of the way down to the end of the runway until it finally got enough airspeed to begin to climb. I didn't dare pull the flaps in until I got the little airplane to climb.

Now with the 182, the same scenario is very different. I simply apply power and pitch for 65 mph. In VFR conditions, I would just fly the pattern back around and land again without messing with the flaps.

Same airplane (182) but at an airport with a field elevation of 6100 and high density altitude.... well, I would take advantage of the ground effect untill I could get my airspeed back to 70 mph and then begin climb strait out and get the flaps back up. I had a Johnson bar, so I had to be careful to put the flaps back in slowly.

Vans RV6A... I have bounced (porpoise... avoid this by keeping airspeed slower ~80 mph and keep your nose up upon landing) the Vans more times that I would like to admit. Your airspeed is nearly irrellvent at this point as you are about to crash your airplane unless you get the airplane back off the ground. I have an o-360 and constant speed prop. Down low, my home airport in texas has a field elevation of about 560 feet. Even in the hottest conditions, after I have applied full power and holding the nose up, I am flying again and have a powerful climb rate. My airspeed will pass thru 100 mph in just a few short seconds, but as others have suggested I pitch for slower airspeed... which puts me at pattern altitude as I am turning crosswind. So, as I am turning I decrease the power and pitch down (I don't want to climb anymore) and keep the airspeed around 90. Yes... I leave my flaps down and fly the pattern and attempt to land again.

Vans RV6A... Airfield elevation 6100 feet... density altitude about 10000. Opps, I bounced again..and again... so I apply full power. I love this airplane, but in any airplane it is critical to watch the airspeed...especially if you are used to porpoising your airplane at airports with lower field elevations and do it again at higher field elevations. In this situation, I choose to keep the 6A in ground effect until I could get the airspeed up to 80 mph, then I began a normal climb (strait ahead) and did pull my flaps up to get more airspeed. I also choose to make shallower turn on my crosswind turn. After I got back into my downwind, I got set up to try again.


On the ILS front, I prefer to fly the plane the same way every time.
Slow the plane (6A) to 90 mph, put in 20 degrees, Prop in all the way. By the time you get to the FAF (Final approach fix), you should already have level flight established and your pitch/power settings are set. These will be different depending on your altitude. As you cross the FAF your glide slope is heading down and you meet it and stay with it by decreasing power... usually just a little. Your airspeed may drop a little, but a slight nudge with (power or pitch depending on which camp you are in, I actually use both with a little bias towards power) will keep you on the glideslope and keep the airspeed about the same.
Now... the go around. When we hit the MAP (Missed approach point) and you have decided to NOT LAND, you can apply full power, but you need to get your flaps pulled up right away. A lot of folks on this thread have "The button". I have a hat switch on my stick, so I hold it up as I am applying power. You don't need the drag anymore and you already have lots of airspeed, so the climb rate will be strong. In real life you will be trimming down so you don't fight the plane as it will attempt to climb like a sick angel.

Remember, all my expreience comes from flying with an O-360/CS prop. With smaller engines and FP prop, you can still do all this stuff successfully, but caution needs to be exercised with the high density altitude airport scenarios.

Good luck and have fun flying your new airplane.... and watch your airspeed.