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What is that noise?

AX-O

Well Known Member
Not RV related but good to know. Especially since many of us use these headsets in our RVs due to the high noise levels.

The aircrew had noise cancelling headsets and did not hear the landing gear horn going off. I have often wondered what noises I can’t hear when I don my noise cancelling headset. I guess if it is a constant noise that does not change frequency; it could be cancelled out very well. Hence the reason for the headset in the first place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Hs5ChcYbaNU&vq=large
 
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Luckily, we have the ability to hook up warning audio inputs into most of our audio panels, or intercoms, and get the warning directly into the headset.

This was a consideration when I was figuring out how to hook up my stall warning system.

Wonder what the guy in back with the camera thought of it all???
 
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Not directly related, but I never put on my headset when I start the engine. This way, any unusual noise from the engine will be heard right away.
 
I'm not buying it. Too bad the video didn't include the intercom, that would explain a lot. Somehow I doubt that the phrase "before landing checklist" was heard. :rolleyes:

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Occasionally in flight I pull my earcup out a little to listen to my engine purr. The wife does the same. During landing, I position my left earcup so that I can hear stall buzzer. Power is pulled back so ANR's are not needed anyway. Something to think about.
 
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Interesting

Great reminder to use your GUMPS check at least once.

I have not had a problem hearing high pitch sounds such as buzzers through my noise cancelling headsets.
 
Luckily, we have the ability to hook up warning audio inputs into most of our audio panels, or intercoms, and get the warning directly into the headset.

I am with you Mike. I was just trying to bring up that there may be noises out there that we may not be able to hear. In this case, a warning via the EFIS would have worked but what else is out there that I don?t hear?
 
I can't throw stones because my total time in retractable gear airplanes is still in fairly low 2-digits, all with instructors and/or much more experienced pilots on board, but incidents like this were happening a long time before noise-cancelling headsets came along. I remember reading one case where a Bonanza driver landed gear-up despite the tower controller telling him several times to "check gear". Later on the pilot said he couldn't understand the controller because of the horn blowing in his ear.:rolleyes:
 
ANR headsets and high pitch sounds

I agree with xavierm, my ANR David Clarks are tuned to remove the low tones such as the engine exaust rumble etc. I have no problem hearing high pitch sounds.

When I first brought my David Clarks home, I had to stop at my son's school and wait for him to get done with marching band practice. So, I took them out of the box, dropped in the batteries, and put them on. Interesting that all of the drum noise disappeared and I could only hear the brass! That's when I ralized they are tuned to get rid of the low tones.

When companies like Boes have booths at the air shows, they set up displays with a sound generator making engine noises that you can stand under wearing their headsets to show how ANR removes the engine noises.
 
Like I said, you can't fix stupid.

Or distracted, maybe? I know a very smart, very experienced test pilot instructor who almost landed a 310 gear up on the next approach after being waved off the first one due to someone else not clearing the runway in time. He did hear the controller, and got the gear down. Easy to get distracted when things aren't going as expected.
 
Axel, do you wear ANR at work??

No, we don't wear ANR at work. We are mandated to wear double hearing protection due to the excessive noise levels in our current platform. So we wear a helmet and molded CEPs. Some guys don’t wear the CEPs because they don’t like the fact that they can’t hear certain sounds they are accustomed to. Those guys are consistently losing their hearing. :(
 
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I agree, a lot of gear-ups and similar accidents happen when the usual pattern is broken, e.g., on short final tower says "go around", pilot retracts gear and climbs; tower says "tight 360 approved, cleared to land". Pilot forgets gear.

I always start the engine with my headphones removed. After I yell "clear", I want to hear if someone outside yells, "Ack, don't start!". Also, I've been in the right seat in some aircraft where the intercom comes on with the master, and I hate to hear the left seat guy yell "Clear" as loud as he can into the intercom!
 
LX is a Luxembourg registration. The gear up landing was probably the best outcome for the circumstance. If they had realized the error on short final and tried to do a go-around, it would probably end up in a CFIT situation. Not many options at that airport. Scary!
 
That isn't the fault of ANR headsets. I've been wearing them for years, in multiple aircraft, and the warning tones are clearly audible through any ANR headset I've used, including three generations of Bose, Zulus, and Telex.

Wearing Zulu 2 headsets in the Cirrus, I can hear my cell phone ring. Not in the RV, but that's because of the higher noise level.

That is an example of task saturation/distraction. I'd guess that the initial warning was when the aircraft was high and fast, and maybe north of Vle. The pilot was trying to get the airplane slowed to a short field approach speed, anxious because of the short, one-way airport.

It's very easy to ignore warning horns, especially if you're used to hearing them. This is a problem in aircraft with low gear extension speeds.

A really good example of this phenomenon is here
 
I'm not buying it. Too bad the video didn't include the intercom, that would explain a lot. Somehow I doubt that the phrase "before landing checklist" was heard. :rolleyes:

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Agreed. I can hear the stall warning just fine in my 172 over my Bose X ANR.
 
...and the lesson?

Guys much smarter than me have landed gear up....for all the reasons you guys are listing, and more.
To deconstruct this accident; true, a lot is missing. ..the pilot HAS to be thinking...'why won't this thing come down!?!?'...as he points the nose at the numbers. ( great glide ratio without that pesky gear hanging out!)

What is interesting is how everyone is in a state of disbelief/shock after the 'landing'. The pilot seems most concerned with his prop ( the most visible evidence that he screwed up!)
No one re-enters the cockpit to verify that fuel, electrical etc is off, nor to retrieve a fire extinguisher, logs etc which could instantly be lost in a fire!
I'd be nose to the tarmac to see if a pool of fuel is forming under the aircraft!
Anyone been in a similar situation? Granted everyone here was unharmed physically....but what is the best course of action? Walk away 100' and sit on the grass?...collect yourself, before you call your insurance agent?

some food for thought.
 
Did his approach have to be that steep? It looked like he was about 1500' AGL on base, but when he turned final he was only 400' AGL and it only took him 1 min. and 9 sec. to contact.

Do you think he was there to film and show his buddies how steep he could approach with the prop in flat pitch and thought he was hearing the stall warning?
 
Megeve

This happened in Megeve, France.
In France there are several airfields in the Alps and Pyr?n?es mountain ranges where it is required to have a "mountain" rating to be allowed use these airfields.
This was most probably a training flight to get the mountain rating. The instructor on the right seat (I know him, he's one of the guys in my local aeroclub) was training the pilot/owner of the airplane. He was not instructing to fly this particular airplane, just the mountain rating, so he may have not been familiar with that airplane.
The left seat pilot/owner was probably distracted by the unfamiliar environment.
Also you can hear in the conversation in french in that there was another airplane in the vicinity and both front seat guys were looking for it a some stage, which added to the distraction.
It is amazing how sometimes things that seem so obvious to an outside observer are overlooked by the actors in some situations. In the airline world we see that in simulators when crews are under big pressure, or unfortunately in accident analysis.
In this case the gear warning went unnoticed by all and I believe ANR headsets or no headsets would have made any difference. They just didn't hear the gear warning when it seems sooooo loud when watching the video...
This could happen to anyone, low time private pilot or super experienced airline or military pilot!
Fly safe.
 
Anyone been in a similar situation? Granted everyone here was unharmed physically....but what is the best course of action? Walk away 100' and sit on the grass?...collect yourself, before you call your insurance agent?

No, thank goodness.

Start building or buy an RV-10.
 
This could happen to anyone, low time private pilot or super experienced airline or military pilot!
Fly safe.

I respectfully disagree. Checklist discipline is a must whether flying a SE airplane or a transport type. There really is no excuse to ever land gear up, distracted by traffic or anything else provided the pilot or crew exercise proper use of checklists. Two guys, 1 a CFI, do not pull out a checklist or even a quick GUMPS check? Shameful, really.
 
I respectfully disagree. Checklist discipline is a must whether flying a SE airplane or a transport type. There really is no excuse to ever land gear up, distracted by traffic or anything else provided the pilot or crew exercise proper use of checklists. Two guys, 1 a CFI, do not pull out a checklist or even a quick GUMPS check? Shameful, really.

I agree completely with Clarkie. Here is another video, that I have used in safety seminars, that makes several points. The two guys in the front are talking about something other than landing the airplane. Notice that their heads never turn even to look for traffic. This is a Cessna 210, so you can see if the main gear is down by looking out the window. The touchdown is nearly half way down the runway, might be an indication of lack of drag. This event could have been saved at several points with a simple glance out the window.

http://s382.photobucket.com/albums/...r/?action=view&current=Whats_that_beeping.mp4

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
The two guys in the front are talking about something other than landing the airplane.

This is why I have always insisted on a sterile, silent cockpit within 10 miles of an airport, distractions will kill you. Many times I have had to flat out tell passengers to shut up!
 
The two guys in the front are talking about something other than landing the airplane.

This is why I have always insisted on a sterile, silent cockpit within 10 miles of an airport, distractions will kill you. Many times I have had to flat out tell passengers to shut up!

I frequently make use of the pilot isolate switch for this very reason. I don't want to keep my friends from chatting amongst themselves about all the cool sights, but it's hard for non-pilots to understand how distracting they can be, especially when they like to talk over the radio.
 
This happened in Megeve, France.
Thanks for the "insider" information. I received this video from someone in the FAA (a list on the web) with the title ?what is that noise? and the ANR as the culprit. I guess that was erroneous. Will let them know.
 
I have no comment to make about the actions of these pilots or any others who may be in a similar situation. I have done stupid things before that, if you were to have observed them as they happened, most assuredly would have had you questioning my intelligence. Even so, I am not a stupid person. Perhaps we can all be guilty of ignorance sometimes (i.e. what is that noise? ).

Anyway, that leads me to what I wish to contribute. So, it seems to me that we should begin to examine such incidents as these to see how they can be mitigate and, hopefully, prevent them from happening to others in the future. It does seem to me that a possible simple solution should involve the warning itself. The truth is we can all think of times when we have allowed our mind to "block out" certain signals that we should normally be paying attention to.

In the two video examples presented here we are talking about audio noises that all those involved blocked out as unimportant to their task at hand. Most previous posts have been discussing the issues in terms of how to avoid this potential error. To this point we have been dealing with the; prevention of distractions, adherence to checklists as memory tools and various other PREVENTIVE measures for keeping us from becoming a member of such a club. I agree with all of these propositions. We should all be using such procedures. However, it also seems to me there is an equally fundamental potential solution to these type of events.

I am referring to the actual warning signal itself. Now, I understand that both examples given in this thread were dealing with certificated GA aircraft. In fact, the original video was in a foreign country with rules and regulations that may be very different from those we face with the FAA. However, whether it be certificated domestic, foreign or experimental aircraft the blaring horn that sounds the same no matter what the warning should be examined. With the capabilities we have today we should be able to relatively easily have these warning beeps, horns, buzzers, etc. changed to actual words that would have meaning when enunciated (yes, I do understand the bureaucratic obstacles involved in getting authorization for changes to certificated aircraft).

There really should be no reason why we could not have these beeps, horns, buzzers, etc. changed out to: "LANDING GEAR NOT EXTENDED!"; "RETRACT FLAPS!"; "RPM OVER-SPEED, TAKE CORRECTIVE ACTION" or any number of specific verbal warnings that are specific to whatever the current sensors will already be feeding that one little piezoelectric buzzer. For anyone who has flown behind any number of GPS, EFIS, TRAFFIC or various other electronic devices we use today, we are already familiar with these devices giving such specific aural warnings for "OBSTACLE", "TERRAIN, PULL UP!!", "TRAFFIC, MONITOR CLOSING RATE!" When I hear any of these verbal warnings in my ear I know without analysis what the warning is trying to communicate to me.

I know that most decisions made concerning whether some component of our aircraft will or will not be installed is based upon the ease, convenience or cost associated with installing that component. In my opinion none of these reasons should keep this change from taking place NOW as it relates to these types of enunciation warnings. Piezoelectric buzzers are simple no doubt. They are cheap to construct and install, at least they SHOULD BE. However, with the capabilities that more and more aircraft have with the instrumentation and intercoms installed, we should be able to make a transition to providing specific, definitive information about what exactly the sensor is trying to warn us about. Most all EFIS systems have audio capabilities, if not, the intercoms or enunciators on the market today surely have capabilities to provide verbal warnings. Perhaps not quite as simple as a buzzer activating at a certain voltage but if the system already has the capability to verbalize other warnings, getting them to also do so with landing gear or flap limit switch sensors, airspeed sensors or any number of other sensors that are feeding that little buzzer, should not be that big of a stretch in capabilities or complexities.

My .02.

Live Long and Prosper!
 
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Steve, sounds like a new product for someone to develop. One unit with multiple signal inputs...each tied to a specific warning. Make some user defined (canopy open, Excessive Carbon monoxide, etc)
 
I frequently make use of the pilot isolate switch for this very reason. I don't want to keep my friends from chatting amongst themselves about all the cool sights, but it's hard for non-pilots to understand how distracting they can be, especially when they like to talk over the radio.

The only problem with using the isolate switch is that you also just eliminated several sets of eyes. I brief passengers the same way I briefed jumpseat riders in an airliner, if they see traffic I would like to know about it. I would rather do a little training than lose the extra input.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I brief passengers the same way I briefed jumpseat riders in an airliner, if they see traffic I would like to know about it. I would rather do a little training than lose the extra input.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Amen, brother. Speak up if something, anything, doesn't look right.
 
Just my opinion...

I respectfully disagree. Checklist discipline is a must whether flying a SE airplane or a transport type. There really is no excuse to ever land gear up, distracted by traffic or anything else provided the pilot or crew exercise proper use of checklists. Two guys, 1 a CFI, do not pull out a checklist or even a quick GUMPS check? Shameful, really.

I am not a specialist, not even a CFI... But I 've been flying for 25 years from SE pistons, DC3, turboprops, jets up the 747, I have been involved in Flight Data Analysis for my current airline and I have always been interested in safety things. I've read hundreds of incidents or accident reports and from that I can tell you it can happen to anyone...
Of course there are many strategies that can be implemented to avoid situations leading to incidents/accidents.
It's a complex field but simply put, as you know, an incident/accident is always a chain of events that link together to eventually result in the incident/accident. Break any link in the chain and the accident won't happen. The strategies that can be implemented must be designed to break the links in the chain. The use of checklists, memory acronyms such as GUMPS, efficient training, proficiency, CRM, etc, are part of such strategies, and much more complex things are involved as well such as human psychology, research on fatigue, etc.
But any strategy can fail for multiple reasons and as long as there are retractable gear airplanes there will be gear up landings, and once again I believe it can happen to anyone. Yes I agree that the probability of this happening to a very experienced pilot is less than for a low timer, but it can happen.

But that's just my opinion...
 
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