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What is NOT included in the Vans kits?

K

kenpilot

Active Member
I'm trying to put together a cost estimate for building an RV-10. It doesn't need to be perfect by any means. I'm listing only new parts, so I have a reference. And I'm only wanting this to be +/- $25k perhaps.

It's pretty cool that the Vans website lists all the part numbers included in the four RV-10 kits combined. But having never built one of these, does anyone have some tips on discovering what is NOT included?

For example, we all know avionics are separate. But seats and seatbelts feel like a critical component of the airplane. The only parts listed for "harness" or "belt" are the attaching mechanisms, not the belts themselves.

So far, this is what I've discovered is absent from the parts list (unless I just don't know how to search):
  • Avionics (obviously)
  • Paint (obviously)
  • Rear seats (only front seats are included)
  • Seatbelts
  • Interior panels that make the aircraft nice and quiet
  • Control stick grips
  • Fire extinguisher
  • Wheel pants
  • Fuel caps
  • Battery
  • ELT
  • Antennas

The same goes for the engine/propeller. Here's what I've compiled so far that is absent:
  • Alternator
  • Propeller governor
  • Vacuum pumps
  • Entire exhaust system
  • Heat muffs
  • Oil cooler

Does anyone have a record of what they had to purchase toward the end of the project to make it complete?
 
Wheel pants and fuel caps are part of the kit, or at least they were for my -8, and I don't imagine other kits are different.

We could have an entire info session on the nickel-and-diming that comes from FWF stuff, but an easy way around that is to buy a FWF kit from Van's, which is what I think a lot of people do. Obviously that only applies if you go with a standard engine option.

Don't forget about wiring, though maybe you're including that in your avionics line item. I probably have $1000 into materials for building my harness, and that's DIYing everything on a relatively simple RV-8. Expect the costs to go up for a more complex -10, especially if you pay someone like SteinAir to build the harness for you.

Then there's a ton of minor items that keep creeping up towards the end of the build. I've spent a hair under $1200 at Aircraft Spruce in the past year. Most of that is assorted hardware purchases - bolts, screws, washers, materials, stuff like that I need for fabbing various end-of-build things, but also:

  • ASA oil separator kit
  • An extension I need to make my mixture control cable work (I didn't go with a standard engine setup)
  • Firewall penetration kits for wiring
  • Silicone boots for battery/alternator cable terminals
  • A big pile of assorted adel clamps for FWF cable/wire routing

You're going to find a wide variety of purchases for the end of the project, because that's the point where everyone starts making the project their own, and there are a million ways to skin a lot of different cats.
 
Thanks, Philip. If the cost of these miscellaneous things is small enough, I could just have a general line item for that. What concerned me was the big things. A new alternator and mounting kit can be as much as $1000 alone. The front seats are $10,000 combined, so maybe I need to add another $10,000 for the rear seats.

And just to add, I'm staying away from "mods" in this thread, as my goal initially is to determine if i can even afford the base project.
 
Don't underestimate all of the little things you will end up needing to buy to complete the airplane.
My spreadsheet of "things to buy" ended up at around $63,000. This was 9 years ago prices. I still have about $7500 left to buy for my IFR upgrade (one of these days). :D

I can send you a copy.
 
Oh I don't even want to try and total up all the receipts from my build. Any time someone asks me how much it cost for me to build my bird (a fully-loaded IFR 9A), I legitimately say "I don't know, I don't want to know. I have it insured for $xyz, though".

The rule of thumb I had heard when calculating the budget for my build is take whatever you come up with from your itemized major list, and pad it by another 20-30% for all the minor random things, parts for rebuilds, and general budget inflation as you come across new(er) things you may want to implement as you build.
 
I suggest you budget 250k minimum. By the time you’re ready to build, an IO 540 will be pushing 80k unless you buy used. Don’t forget 5-8k for tools. Avionics going up in costs. Shipping costs to factor in as well. Plus the bling factor. You say you want a basic 10 but there is a lot of extras that will tug at you until you cave in and buy them. Some are certainly worth it e.g plane around 3rd door latch for example. Look at some of the builder blogs and you will get a great idea of what goes into the whole build.

Hope this helps and good luck with your build!

Keith
 
kenpilot said:
Thanks, Philip. If the cost of these miscellaneous things is small enough, I could just have a general line item for that. What concerned me was the big things. A new alternator and mounting kit can be as much as $1000 alone. The front seats are $10,000 combined, so maybe I need to add another $10,000 for the rear seats.

And just to add, I'm staying away from "mods" in this thread, as my goal initially is to determine if i can even afford the base project.
Click to expand...

Unless things have changed, the basic kit included the seat foam but not upholstry. I had a local shop cover the foam in leather for $1600, no where near $10K.
No interior panels will make the interior quiet. Plan to buy 4 good noise attenuating headsets.
It’s the 21st century. Skip the vacuum pump.
 
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kenpilot said:
Thanks, Philip. If the cost of these miscellaneous things is small enough, I could just have a general line item for that. What concerned me was the big things. A new alternator and mounting kit can be as much as $1000 alone. The front seats are $10,000 combined, so maybe I need to add another $10,000 for the rear seats.

And just to add, I'm staying away from "mods" in this thread, as my goal initially is to determine if i can even afford the base project.
Click to expand...

Jeez. My 4 seats were an order of magnitude less than that.
Probably worth doing some research there. There is more than one vendor…
 
I have good records for my RV-8, which might help you see the proportions of the non-Vans equipment. I did make some modifications and used some non-standard components, so you should be able to do better than this. You also won't suffer the horrific shipping costs we live with in this part of the world. My original numbers were recorded in Australian dollars (pacific pesos), so I've roughly converted them to USD by multiplying by 0.67.

Total to date, nearly everything except propeller and avionics: $106670

Which includes the following main suppliers:

Aero Sport Power Pty Ltd : 50926
Van's Aircraft, Inc. : 22975
Anderson Aviation Australia Pty Ltd (Beringer) : 4541
Sky Designs Engineering LLC : 3671
Aircraft Spruce & Specialty Co : 3231
Vetterman Exhaust Inc : 1683
Rextel Pty Ltd (Seairland) : 1283
Racetech Inc (SDS) : 1176
B & C Speciality Products Inc : 1062
TS Flightlines : 970

I would expect there is probably another $50k to be spent before the wheels leave the ground.

So, all up, you could probably expect to quadruple the Van's kit costs.
 
Tools necessary for the build, plus things like wood for work tables and wing cradles. And don't forget to account for inflation for your 3-6 year project as well as the cost of the hangar you're going to have to eventually move it to to finish. Just watching the price evolution on Lycoming engines and avionics over the last 3-6 years has been very interesting. Likewise shipping costs. Start your project now in this period of economic uncertainty and there is no guessing what your engine ad other major unit parts will cost by the time you need them. But they won't be cheaper.
 
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The vans estimator is also a reasonable place to start.
Personally I don’t see the point in over analyzing it if you haven’t started.
If you think you can afford the vans estimated $$ numbers over say 3-4y then just buy the tail kit and start building. Refine your budget as you go.
The one thing people grossly underestimate is time. More so than $.
The sooner you start the closer you are to having an airplane!
 
kenpilot said:
I'm trying to put together a cost estimate for building an RV-10.
Click to expand...

My exact cost was $247,193.99 and I finished in 2020. Prices have gone up since then. I kept meticulous records of dollars spent and this included EVERYTHING from kit to sandpaper. Today, I'd budget AT LEAST $250,000. Since every builder I know wants to add "stuff" along the journey, I'd suggest you budget $275,000 for today's costs. With your + or - $25k, you should be able to build the plane you want.

Trying to estimate piece by piece before the build will probably be tough to do. You'd be surprised how many small trips to the aviation department at Home Depot you will make, and those add up too.

Good luck in your build!! Whatever it costs you, it's worth every penny!!
 
Shipping. It will be a lot more than you'll estimate

Like everything else, it's getting more expensive every day. There is little doubt in my mind that some suppliers are trying to make a little extra money off of it. It got bad enough that when dealing with suppliers that offer free shipping for orders over X amount, I'll order an avionics box (antenna, Engine interface module, etc.) with it to save the shipping costs. I adds up quickly. Can't imagine how it impacts builders in other countries.
 
Oops. Despite my best intentions, it seems I've started a "How much will my build cost?" thread. Please allow me to guide this back to the parts rather than the cost.

I'm aware that prices change constantly, and I'm confident that I'll spend more than I planned to. As the saying goes, take your best estimate and double it, then throw away the paper and spend money til it's done. Or as I tell my own students: if you budget only for the private pilot training, you won't have any money for the actual "flying hobby" itself afterwards.

But even without $$$$, I'd still like to compile a break-down of major items that don't come with the kit. I have several non-money motivations for this:
  • If I see a used component for sale, I'll know if I should snag the deal or skip it because it'll already come with the kit.
  • Reduce unnecessary delays if I discover something major is missing and then find out it's on backorder.
  • Better focus my research
  • Be able to show my wife how the project would be spread over several years (just using proportions, not raw $$)
  • If I have that spread-out plan, I can then decide how much of the project to take on each year, to plan around the supply-chain delays.

Replies:
  • BobTurner, yes definitely skip the vacuum pumps. I never want to see one of those again in my lifetime.
  • MacCool, so far I have the Cleveland RV-10 recommended tool set. Selecting which tools to use is a completely separate topic, but it was very informative to study that list and imagine how much space I might need to make it all work in the garage. I picked out the few items I'd buy up front when my wife and I do the Vans practice kits (toolbox, airfoil), vs. the tools I'd need later. And I added some items I don't have in the garage that they assume you have (air compressor, tool bench, vise).
  • Richard, I'm actually doing an experiment lately... If I think I could maintain a 14 hour/week pace and maybe build the RV-10 over 2-3 years, I'm logging time now working on the house, cars, current RV-6, etc. to see how that pace feels. The worst thing I could possibly do, I think, is start building an RV-10 and never finish, so I'm trying to prepare myself mentally for this commitment.
  • Randy, your meticulous records sound very relevant to my current research. Would you mind sharing a copy over DM?
  • Freemasm, shipping is a big question mark on my sheet. I've heard it can be thousands, especially the freight for the kit crates. My friend recommends I just get a truck+trailer and go get the crates myself. It would be a drive from CO to OR, so not too bad.
 
kenpilot said:
...shipping is a big question mark on my sheet.
Click to expand...

Vans quoted me $1,000-$1,200 in May to ship my wing kit to my home in Prineville, OR which is 170 miles from the Van's factory. Needless to say, I picked it up myself.

re: tools
I haven't started my build yet but I originally thought I'd spend around $5,000 on tools. I'm at $9,000 and counting. The more YouTube videos I watch, the more tools I buy.
 
Don’t forget common mods. I have TS Flightlines hoses, a fuel pump/filter, and an andair fuel selector. Also autopilot servos and the dynon pitot tube. Vans pitot is downright archaic.
 
Estimator

I actually do keep and log every receipt down to nitrile gloves and solvents. It's all categorized in spreadsheet tabs so I know how much each component cost plus ancillary purchases by category like tools, supplies, etc. I mainly did it in case a government entity wanted to hit me with tax. I know exactly how much tax was paid on every item.

I also have a spreadsheet I call the "wishlist". It's anything I found interesting or required over the course of the build. As time went on required items were placed on a separate sheet with actual cost for budget and planning. They were deleted as they were purchased. Only two items left. The prop and the O² system.

Anyway, if you want the Wishlist, I can e-mail it.
My Basic Builder Log is available for download on my blog. Link below. It may help track time and costs and it's already set up. Even has an Epoxy/Paint calculator.
 
I'm back... Thank you all for your replies. This was a helpful perspective, and I'm a lot closer now to understanding what goes into a build. I went through the Cleveland toolset recommended for the RV-10, and I added a bunch more items that most workshops would have that my bare garage doesn't yet have. At Oshkosh, I met the couple building N14VE, and I've spent days now going through the YouTube channel. So I think I can wrap my head around this project better now. It's much less intimidating.

It sounds like "mods" are the quickest way to balloon the cost of the project. I've heard about many of them, but none stand out to me as a must-have. Perhaps I'm just more interested in the avionics than I am the airframe, and I already know the panel will be custom.

Larry Larson, thanks for the links for epoxy calculator. That will be helpful later.

Randy, it sounds like your records would be the most valuable here, since you have an RV-10. I'd love to take a peak at them. Would you mind sharing? DM is fine too.
 
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