Van's Air Force
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Video - In Trail Aerobatics
- Thread starter DakotaHawk
- Start date
AlexPeterson
Well Known Member
Nicely done! Looks like a couple hits on the prop wash!
java
Well Known Member
Knowing you're a "formation guy", I'd like to hear more why. Not having formation experience, all of it "scares" me right now, but I'd like to pursue it eventually, and am always anxious to learn and understand from those more experienced.
Is it formation aerobatics in general? Is it the particular techniques displayed? I just don't get the context. Really, just trying to understand here... no judgement as I'm not qualified to do so.
Christopher Murphy
Well Known Member
about half way thru
A little far back for close trail and a little close for extended trail... What was the manuever about half way through the vid.... did lead snap roll? Pretty high closure rate a couple of times.
Definitely not up to FFI standards.
CM
ps. if you fly formation in public you better be ready for the critics!
A little far back for close trail and a little close for extended trail... What was the manuever about half way through the vid.... did lead snap roll? Pretty high closure rate a couple of times.
Definitely not up to FFI standards.
CM
ps. if you fly formation in public you better be ready for the critics!
Sid Lambert
Well Known Member
At 3:29 I'd have put it back in the barn and cleaned the pooh out of my pants.
DakotaHawk
Well Known Member
Varying separation while in trail
I better be ready for the guys back at the debrief after the flight! They are my best critics!
"In trail" formations spread out and close up distances as the speed of the flight changes. For example, as Lead climbs into the initial entry of a loop, he's going uphill and obviously going to lose energy/speed in the climb - therefore the next guy will have some closure rate on lead. As soon as Lead goes over the top of the loop, he's going downhill while the next guy will still be going uphill, and there will be a separation rate.
This closure/separation is adjusted by using angles only. We all enter the in-trail portion of the flight with our throttles set, and don't move the throttle for the entire series. So if Two is falling behind, he'll turn inside the turn to make up the lost ground. If Two is getting too close, he'll move outside the turn to back off. This happens whether the "turn" is horizontal ie a 180* turn, or vertical ie a loop or some combination.
So at 3:28, when you see Two closing on Lead, you'll also see that Two pulls to the outside of the roll to open up the separation. The results are visible just a few seconds later when Lead comes back into camera view with greater separation. (Two had Lead in sight at all times!)
When I began practicing In Trail a couple of months ago (with a safety pilot on board), it was difficult and scary. But as I began to understand the way the the planes all react, it became very enjoyable. I think In Trail is easier and safer than close formation, just because of the greater separation.
Fly safe! It's supposed to be fun!
Pretty high closure rate a couple of times.
ps. if you fly formation in public you better be ready for the critics!
I better be ready for the guys back at the debrief after the flight! They are my best critics!
"In trail" formations spread out and close up distances as the speed of the flight changes. For example, as Lead climbs into the initial entry of a loop, he's going uphill and obviously going to lose energy/speed in the climb - therefore the next guy will have some closure rate on lead. As soon as Lead goes over the top of the loop, he's going downhill while the next guy will still be going uphill, and there will be a separation rate.
This closure/separation is adjusted by using angles only. We all enter the in-trail portion of the flight with our throttles set, and don't move the throttle for the entire series. So if Two is falling behind, he'll turn inside the turn to make up the lost ground. If Two is getting too close, he'll move outside the turn to back off. This happens whether the "turn" is horizontal ie a 180* turn, or vertical ie a loop or some combination.
So at 3:28, when you see Two closing on Lead, you'll also see that Two pulls to the outside of the roll to open up the separation. The results are visible just a few seconds later when Lead comes back into camera view with greater separation. (Two had Lead in sight at all times!)
When I began practicing In Trail a couple of months ago (with a safety pilot on board), it was difficult and scary. But as I began to understand the way the the planes all react, it became very enjoyable. I think In Trail is easier and safer than close formation, just because of the greater separation.
Fly safe! It's supposed to be fun!
Phlyan Pan
Well Known Member
Definitely fun to watch. There were a couple of pucker moments but that's what makes it fun.
Christopher Murphy
Well Known Member
lead and lag pursuit
Your video demonstrates very well the effects of lead and lag pusuit. Flying in trail is a fun way to increase your skills. My caution, and I think others will agree and I am NOT ADVOCATING it, but when flying formation aerobatics it should be done in close formation or in extended trail. Doing aerobatics in the between range leads to the high closure rates I mentioned and the risks should not be taken lightly.
I did enjoy your video and things can be learned from it.
CM
ps I would like to see 4's video.
Your video demonstrates very well the effects of lead and lag pusuit. Flying in trail is a fun way to increase your skills. My caution, and I think others will agree and I am NOT ADVOCATING it, but when flying formation aerobatics it should be done in close formation or in extended trail. Doing aerobatics in the between range leads to the high closure rates I mentioned and the risks should not be taken lightly.
I did enjoy your video and things can be learned from it.
CM
ps I would like to see 4's video.
Last edited:
DakotaHawk
Well Known Member
I don't think 4 was running video. I enjoy sharing videos of flight - maybe my videos inspire someone to learn something new, or get back out to the shop and buck a few more rivets... And I enjoy the feedback. I can learn from comments made here as well as comments made as my group de-briefs after the flight.
There's others who I fly with who aren't really interested in putting together a video for distribution. Too much effort, don't like the feedback, whatever.
Rhino889
Well Known Member
Thats exactly what you did.
Thanks for sharing... now back into the workshop for some quality rivet time.
strahler13
Well Known Member
JV,
Ever get an answer?
Mark
Ever get an answer?
Mark
java
Well Known Member
Just what you can read here.
Sid Lambert
Well Known Member
The first one was pretty cool and made me smile. The second one was pretty close from the camera shot but you couldn't see the whole situation.
I'm not saying with proper training this isn't safe and it **** sure looks fun. I'm just saying I can do normal formation but some of the advanced stuff is over my head.
Flyfalcons
Well Known Member
Looks like a lot of fun, Tim. If we ever get our recall (and if I ever finish my plane), we'll have to meet up and you can show me that kind of fun.
RVG8tor
Well Known Member
Love it
I can't wait to be doing this with my -8 even some BFM in my future if I find the right partner. Flying trail formation like this teaches you a lot and can improve pilot skills. You will learn to recognize closure rates that will help you when joining up in formation, things like if the other airplane is staying in one spot on the canopy you will hit him if he is moving aft you will go in front of him conversely if he is moving forward you will pass behind. Trail formation is taught in military pilot training early on due to this very fact. This training will also help if god forbid you find yourself with an imminent midair, with practice you will be able to access closure and aspect angle and make the correct move to prevent a collision instead of the guy with no training that may make things worse. Of course good look out discipline and this type of assessment should not be a factor.
Trail formation is also great fun, however one needs to find someone with experience to teach you this stuff but once you understand lead lag and turn radios and the use of the vertical there is no better flying than being the trail guy in formation.
Thank for sharing, this is a one area of flying I am looking forward to doing, soon hopefully soon.
Cheers
I can't wait to be doing this with my -8 even some BFM in my future if I find the right partner. Flying trail formation like this teaches you a lot and can improve pilot skills. You will learn to recognize closure rates that will help you when joining up in formation, things like if the other airplane is staying in one spot on the canopy you will hit him if he is moving aft you will go in front of him conversely if he is moving forward you will pass behind. Trail formation is taught in military pilot training early on due to this very fact. This training will also help if god forbid you find yourself with an imminent midair, with practice you will be able to access closure and aspect angle and make the correct move to prevent a collision instead of the guy with no training that may make things worse. Of course good look out discipline and this type of assessment should not be a factor.
Trail formation is also great fun, however one needs to find someone with experience to teach you this stuff but once you understand lead lag and turn radios and the use of the vertical there is no better flying than being the trail guy in formation.
Thank for sharing, this is a one area of flying I am looking forward to doing, soon hopefully soon.
Cheers
Bill Wightman
Well Known Member
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Very nice...
....the guy in the rear has his 'stuff' together!
Best,
....the guy in the rear has his 'stuff' together!
Best,
