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Vertical Stabilizer

mnmisage

mnmisage

Member
Hi all!

I have been lurking on this site for nearly a year just trying to learn as much as I could before jumping in and buying the empennage kit. I received it in mid January and have been chugging along nicely really enjoying myself until today when starting to assemble the ribs to the front spar of the vertical stablizer.

The holes weren't lining up when I tried to cleco the front spar (VS-1202) to the lower main rib (VS-1208). It took a while to figure out the reason but it looks like the flange on the rib was not bent at the right place on one of the sides resulting in an asymmetry that is preventing the holes from lining up. I don't know how I didn't notice it before but the flange on one side of the rib is 1/5" shorter than the other side.

Can anyone confirm whether or not the flanges on VS-1208 are the same size?

Thanks for the help of all the first builders whose questions, comments, and blogs helped in making the decision to build a plane!

Mark

www.n624rv.blogspot.com
 
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Not trying to state the obvious, but it should fit with no difficulty. The ribs can get deformed in the forming process and may need to be fluted. This is more of a problem with the wing ribs. Check your pats on a flat surface and see if either the front spar or main rib is warped a bit. Double check that you are fitting everything in the right orientation. The only time I had holes fail to line up was when I had something reversed or otherwise incorrectly fitted. It is possible that Van's incorrectly manufactured one part or the other. It is more likely that it just needs to be tweaked. I was amazed that through out the whole airframe how well all the ribs, spars and skins fit.
 
Mark Henderson said:
Not trying to state the obvious, but it should fit with no difficulty. The ribs can get deformed in the forming process and may need to be fluted. This is more of a problem with the wing ribs. Check your pats on a flat surface and see if either the front spar or main rib is warped a bit. Double check that you are fitting everything in the right orientation. The only time I had holes fail to line up was when I had something reversed or otherwise incorrectly fitted. It is possible that Van's incorrectly manufactured one part or the other. It is more likely that it just needs to be tweaked. I was amazed that through out the whole airframe how well all the ribs, spars and skins fit.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark. When I lay the rib down on a flat surface resting on the flanges, the whole rib leans to one side since the flange is so much shorter on one side. The holes for the skin are much closer to the bend on the short side than they are on the other.

It just looks like the flange was bent at the wrong place during manufacturing.

Once I figure out how to post pics, I will try and attach one since I have no idea if my descriptions are making any sense.
 
This is a view from one of the ends of the rib. Note the difference in the flanges
http://picasaweb.google.com/nmisage/Posts#
Posts
 
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Are you talking about the difference in the distance to the angles from one side to the other? That is normal.



The holes should line up. You might need to move the rib a little to get them to line up with the skin, but the flanges should be dead on. If they are not lining up something is not right according to the plans. Double check to make sure the orientation of the rib is correct, and make sure the front spar is correct.
 
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The strange thing is, the rib still nests with reasonable clearance into the forward spar. My wife made a good observation when she said that not only does one flange appear to be too small, the other appears too big. It is almost like it was off center when it was put into the stamp or whatever rig is used to fold the sides. Here is an overhead view.
http://picasaweb.google.com/nmisage/Posts#5443061182261886866
Posts
 
The top view with your front view, I think really gives it away. It should be symmetrical. Send both photos to Van's, and call them Monday. Check all the other ones. Get them replaced!!

Like Larry said, if it does not fit, something is wrong!
 
That rib looks defective to me. If you look at the lightening holes they are not centered in the indents. Also, the little slots on the top & bottom should be the same distance from the edge. Hard to describe with words, but something is wrong for sure.

Good catch Mr. & Mrs. Mark. Not very often there is a defective part.











Mr. Mark, Check your link to your blog.
 
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Mark... I just happen to have an extra rib from my vertical stab and I think you are right about the flanges on your rib just being off a bit. From my recent experience with the v stab:

1) Don't fret that two of the single holes on the leading edge of the flanges on the lower rib do not quite line up with the 1202 front spar and skin. Indeed as Vans suggest you can get a rivet in there.
2) Consider using a 3/16 straight reamer in the 1203 rear spar/ spar caps before putting on the nut plates, otherwise the bolt may not pass easily when you try to bolt the upper hinge assembly. I like to push and back twist until i hear a click and then forward thread the bolt by hand.
3) Beware that some torque wrenches do NOT BREAK at setting, but the handle only clicks and tilts. In other words, some torque wrenches do not have a clutch.
4) Don't worry, the rudder skin WILL clear the v stab skin at full stop even though it looks iffy.

Have fun,
Jeff
 
Thanks everybody for all of the help! I am sending the pics to Van's and ordering a new rib. I have looked all of the others over when I was trying to get a clue as to what was wrong with the main rib and they all look and fit right.

Mark (and Nancy)
 
Jason,

It looks like ours came from the same bad batch. Van's was supposed to be shipping me a replacement yesterday and they did mention that another builder also received a bad rib. If that was not you, I would call or email them tomorrow and tell them to send a replacement. I looked over all of the other VS ribs when I did a trial fitting and everything else looks good. I think it is just an isolated issue (and quite a rare one from what I have gathered)

It sure was nice to post this issue on the forum on Saturday afternoon and quickly receive so many helpful suggestions from the RV-12 trailblazers!

Mark Misage

www.n624rv.blogspot.com
 
Hi Mark

Had an email from Ken at Vans and a replacement is on the way so hopefully will be able to finish up the first 'bit' soon

Jason
 
Good to hear! Your rib has many more miles to travel than mine but I hope you receive it soon. I have been keeping myself busy deburring the VS skins and will probably start the rudder this weekend.

I looked at your blog yesterday and it looks like we are at the same point in the project. Nice dimples!
 
Real productive weekend even managed to squeeze some solid rivets and only screw one up so far...... Wait till my inspector comes round!

Anyway quick question from Page 06-05 regarding VS1212A-R and VS1212A-L I've secured this to the VS1203 where the ribs meet and in the top hole as the plans suggest and in 3 places each side at the bottom with the solid rivets.

Now my question is this do I fill the remaining holes (excluding the flange holes as these will be secured when the skin is fitted) on the VS1212's with LP4-3 rivets?
 
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Jason,

I was productive as well today and was able to complete the VS although I still need to bolt the top hinge on and wire the bottom.
I was wondering the same thing but looked on
http://schmetterlingaviation.blogspot.com/2009_10_01_archive.html
and found a log entry discussing the very problem. To make a long story short, you rivet all of the holes that go through the spar and spar cap on the web (except for the rib holes) but leave the flange holes unfilled until you skin.
While I was waiting for the rib, I was able to do all of the prep work on the rudder parts so that should go together in relatively short order. I am having a blast building this plane! The toughest part has been having to stop working on it and go to my real job!

Mark

www.n624rv.blogspot.com
 
Page 06-05 Step 5

Jason,
I believe that step 5 means to rivet all holes in the web of VS-1203 to the VS-1212A left and right lower spar caps, except where the ribs will be riveted in steps 6, 7, & 8. The very top right of Figure 3 says, "LP4-3 Typical.
I hope this helps.
Joe
 
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Squeeze harder?

Hard to tell, Jason. But from one of the photos it looks like some of the rivets on the bottom rudder rib need squeezing some more. Do you have a rivet size gauge?

Cheers...Keith
 
Keith I've seen them but don't have any so if you could provide a link I might well invest to save time....... Squeezing solid rivets is hard work but good physio for my hands - Any tips to make it a little easier?
 
Topturn said:
Keith I've seen them but don't have any so if you could provide a link I might well invest to save time....... Squeezing solid rivets is hard work but good physio for my hands - Any tips to make it a little easier?
Click to expand...

Get a pnuematic squeezer. ;)
 
Using only the rivets called for in the plans as I don't know enough to use anything else. Pnuematic squeezer would be nice but I'm not sure funds allow at the moment although the one that comes with the Avery Tool Kit for the bulk of the rivets is a top bit of kit having already pulled two blind rivets by hand today
 
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Jason,

It appears to me you are using the wrong "rivet sets" in your rivet squeezer, not the wrong rivets. The manufacture's head on the domed rivets should not be flat, they should stay domed. There are domed rivet sets (that go into the squeezer) that you should be using. It appears from the photos you are using flat ones.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/rivdimplesets.php

Are you using domed rivet sets?
 
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Topturn said:
I do have doomed sets in the kit and used them previously with a dimple die if that makes sense? I guess I have some de-construction to do now this is what I have in my tool kit http://www.averytools.com/p-875-cupped-squeezer-sets.aspx
Click to expand...

We all make mistakes. I don't think it would have hurt much, but it is not the corrected method and may have weakened the rivet head. Remember, this is the vert stabilizer holding the rudder on the airplane.

Drilling out rivets is an art. The goal is to not even touch the sides of the material you riveted. Take your time, and develop a "surgeons" touch with the drill. Use a drill the next size smaller to avoid problems with egg shaped holes.

Post pictures of your drilling to help the next guy.

Good luck!
 
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I've invited the inspector over to take a look and will get back once he's been over and this whole prrocess is about learning
 
Topturn said:
I've invited the inspector over to take a look and will get back once he's been over and this whole process is about learning
Click to expand...

Excellent idea! It is always good to have a second pair of eyes on a project.
 
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Rivet gauge & squeezer

Jason,
Until you buy a rivet gauge, you can make a one by drilling a 3/16" hole in a piece of scrap. The shop head of a 1/8" rivet should not go through the hole. Likewise, a 9/64" hole can be used to check the shop head of a 3/32" rivet.
There are many posts about rivet squeezers. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=43649&highlight="main+squeeze"
I have the Cleaveland Main Squeeze and love it. It has a greater mechanical advantage than other brands. You can buy only the handles and use your existing yoke and dies.
http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SCHKITW
Joe
 
Geico266 said:
Excellent idea! It is always good to have a second pair of eyes on a project.
Click to expand...

And I'll add, the Avery videos on the basics are pretty darn good to help you along. Or better yet, find a fellow builder in your area. You could start with one of the local EAA chapters or clubs. You could cover the basics in a short evening.

Another way to find builders in your area is via the VAF white pages.

OR just put a post on a couple of the VAF forums and ask for a bit of help getting started.

http://www.vansairforce.net/rvwp_country.pdf
 
Squeezing

Short of buying a pneumatic squeezer you can usually rest one handle of the "armstrong" variety on the work bench and push with the other one. This is easier and more controllable. Not really necessary for 3/16 rivets but makes life easier with the 1/8 inch ones.

Cheers...Keith
 
Guys as always brilliant advice and I ordered some rivet gauges last night whilst at work so that will help when they arrive and meanwhile I'll make a gauge from some scrap I have in the garage.

Inspector coming over tomorrow night so I'll take his advise on what I've done so far and amend anything that might be required . I've had a day off today decided it was wise to wait and see what the man says tomorrow before having too many bits underway / jobs to redo.
 
LAA Inspector has been over tonight and signed off the VS Frame and the Rudder Frame so tomorrow I can half rivet the skin on the rudder and will do the same when the replacement rib arrives from Vans on the VS.

Using the flat head in the squeezer isn't an issue but suggested in future I use concave head as that's what its meant for. I'm really pleased tonight and will head off to work with a smile on my face.
 
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