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V8 powered Lancair fatality

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RV7Guy

Well Known Member
There was a fatal Lancair crash in Florida, I believe. It was a Corvette motor conversion. He had earlier had the plane worked on for fuel flow issues. Anyone have any more information?

This actually looked much more promising than another alternative engines.

Sad situation. I hate seeing this.
 
It happened Monday at North Perry. I don't think there will be any word for a while at least until the NTSB report comes out.
 
There have already been 10 Lancair accidents in the US this year so far with 13 fatalities, 4 caused by engine stoppages, 1 of these with catastrophic engine failure. These are hot airplanes in an engine out situation with high descent rates.

Very bad to hear of another one now.:(
 
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Gosh darn it

ahuggggggg shizzzz, ughhhh!

RV's are better alternative engine platforms. At least if the fan stops you have a chance.

Very sad...... :(:(
 
ahuggggggg shizzzz, ughhhh!

RV's are better alternative engine platforms. At least if the fan stops you have a chance.

Very sad...... :(:(

That's a silly rumor to start. I lost half my propeller over open water in the Bahamas a few years back. We glided over 20 miles and landed without incident.

While Lancairs do land a little hotter than RVs, they glide wonderfully and, if pilots don't panic and stall the airplane, can be landed successfully on any highway or, worst case, landed gear up in a field in under 500' of landing space with little damage other than ego.

Many of the accident reports I've seen lately suggest "loss of control." That sounds like someone trying to keep the nose up when the fan quits. While I am not an investigator of incidents such as these, it certainly sounds like at least some of these people were not practicing their emergency procedures.
 
Glides like a Brick

There have already been 10 Lancair accidents in the US this year so far with 13 fatalities, 4 caused by engine stoppages, 2 of these with catastrophic engine failures. These are hot airplanes in an engine out situation with high descent rates.
(

One of the recent Lancair crashes at Falcon Field in Mesa AZ was caused by a refueler putting in Jet A instead of 100LL. The engine had troubles right after takeoff. The pilot appeared to try to turn back and lost control and crashed into an orchard. Two wide roads were available but he was very low, full of fuel and three people aboard.

One of my neighbors had a Lancair IV and now has a Lancair IVPT. When full of fuel they glide like a brick. Lighter they glide better but you'd still need lots of space to survive.
 
...One of my neighbors had a Lancair IV and now has a Lancair IVPT. When full of fuel they glide like a brick. Lighter they glide better but you'd still need lots of space to survive.
I feel like I harp on this too much, but do think it is a basic aerodynamic thing that pilots should know.

A heavier load will mean the airplane will be on the ground quicker, but the actual best glide ratio is unaffected by weight. The speed at which the best glide ratio occurs changes with weight but not the ratio itself.
 
That's a silly rumor to start. I lost half my propeller over open water in the Bahamas a few years back. We glided over 20 miles and landed without incident.

While Lancairs do land a little hotter than RVs, they glide wonderfully and, if pilots don't panic and stall the airplane, can be landed successfully on any highway or, worst case, landed gear up in a field in under 500' of landing space with little damage other than ego.

Many of the accident reports I've seen lately suggest "loss of control." That sounds like someone trying to keep the nose up when the fan quits. While I am not an investigator of incidents such as these, it certainly sounds like at least some of these people were not practicing their emergency procedures.

Pulling the nose up when getting near the ground power off is instinctive unless you have lots of training to make that otherwise, especially in aircraft with high sink rates. We've had two Lancair power out forced landings here in the last couple years (turbines) and the people walked away from them fortunately by maintaining best glide speed down to the flare. Aircraft were toast but they were fine.

Lots of RV guys stall or get too slow (high sink rates) too after engine outs so pilots need to maintain those skills in any aircraft.
 
FAA-H-8083-3A

I feel like I harp on this too much, but do think it is a basic aerodynamic thing that pilots should know.

A heavier load will mean the airplane will be on the ground quicker, but the actual best glide ratio is unaffected by weight. The speed at which the best glide ratio occurs changes with weight but not the ratio itself.

Larry is right. Here is an excerpt from FAA-H-8083-3A, Airplane Flying Handbook, page 3-16

"Variations in weight do not affect the glide angle provided
the pilot uses the correct airspeed. Since it is the
lift over drag (L/D) ratio that determines the distance the
airplane can glide, weight will not affect the distance.
The glide ratio is based only on the relationship of the
aerodynamic forces acting on the airplane. The only
effect weight has is to vary the time the airplane will
glide. The heavier the airplane the higher the airspeed
must be to obtain the same glide ratio. For example, if
two airplanes having the same L/D ratio, but different
weights, start a glide from the same altitude, the heavier
airplane gliding at a higher airspeed will arrive at the
same touchdown point in a shorter time. Both airplanes
will cover the same distance, only the lighter airplane
will take a longer time."
 
That's a silly rumor to start. I lost half my propeller over open water in the Bahamas a few years back. We glided over 20 miles and landed without incident.

While Lancairs do land a little hotter than RVs, they glide wonderfully and, if pilots don't panic and stall the airplane, can be landed successfully on any highway or, worst case, landed gear up in a field in under 500' of landing space with little damage other than ego.

Many of the accident reports I've seen lately suggest "loss of control." That sounds like someone trying to keep the nose up when the fan quits. While I am not an investigator of incidents such as these, it certainly sounds like at least some of these people were not practicing their emergency procedures.

This pilot has had an emergency landing in this plane once before. He had his turbo intake suck up a paper towel. It ended up clogging the airflow to the engine. He did a semi-gear up landing and walked away. The plane wasn't to badly damaged.
 
May be true

The aerodynamics may be true but if you are lighter and can stay up longer the more options you have. I would always want to be lighter if faced with an engine out situation.
 
Wing Loading

Wing loading is the issue here. High wing loading = high descent rates and impact speeds when the motor quits.
 
One of the recent Lancair crashes at Falcon Field in Mesa AZ was caused by a refueler putting in Jet A instead of 100LL. The engine had troubles right after takeoff. The pilot appeared to try to turn back and lost control and crashed into an orchard. Two wide roads were available but he was very low, full of fuel and three people aboard.

One of my neighbors had a Lancair IV and now has a Lancair IVPT. When full of fuel they glide like a brick. Lighter they glide better but you'd still need lots of space to survive.

Even the F-4E Phantom with 3 bags of gas, 4 Aim-7's, and full gun ammo could glide. I know - I lost both engines momentarily near the arctic ice cap due to broken throttle stops. Blessedly, both restarted quickly - the rescue 'copters were 3 hours away at best and our estimated time of survival in the water around 15 minutes.

Point being, unless you are performing a short field takeoff you should have enough speed that dropping the nose will allow some glide. If you haven't practiced this (not close to the ground, of course) you may panic and try to hold the aircraft up by force of will - but there are no documented instances where that force is sufficient to keep an aircraft from stalling and plummeting.

If the engine quits - Suck it up, you are going down. That accepted, keep the nose pointed towards the least fatal spot on the ground. If you don't do these two things, you lose your opportunity to land where and how you choose.
 
Pulling the nose up when getting near the ground power off is instinctive unless you have lots of training to make that otherwise, especially in aircraft with high sink rates. We've had two Lancair power out forced landings here in the last couple years (turbines) and the people walked away from them fortunately by maintaining best glide speed down to the flare. Aircraft were toast but they were fine.

Lots of RV guys stall or get too slow (high sink rates) too after engine outs so pilots need to maintain those skills in any aircraft.

Thank you - that is exactly my point. We are in a sport that has danger. If you don't prepare for the danger, it WILL be deadly.
 
This pilot has had an emergency landing in this plane once before. He had his turbo intake suck up a paper towel. It ended up clogging the airflow to the engine. He did a semi-gear up landing and walked away. The plane wasn't to badly damaged.

Glad to hear you're ok! Hope you fly with friends and share both your experience and coach them to train!
 
If the engine quits - Suck it up, you are going down. That accepted, keep the nose pointed towards the least fatal spot on the ground. If you don't do these two things, you lose your opportunity to land where and how you choose.

Right you are.

An idea here, that will be both enjoyable, and educational.

Go get some time in a glider. Learn to fly without an engine before you are forced to do so.

And, when all else fails-------Remember the third law of aviation, "if a crash is inevitable, hit the softest, cheapest thing available, as slowly as you can."
 
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I didn't have the accident the pilot who crashed Monday did!

Ah, and we don't know yet what happened in that accident? So, maybe his previous experience was no help, or maybe it was just his time.

I like the previous poster's suggestion that we all get glider time.

All skills are "perishable," and need renewal from time to time.
 
I'm guessing that the average Lancair has a lot better glide ratio than an RV so that part of the article is not accurate nor are the stats according to the NTSB database. The higher speed at impact does make a Lancair forced landing less survivable than say an RV or 172 if rough ground or obstacles are encountered.

Lots of training would help reduce accidents.

The Space Shuttle has a poor glide ratio and very high glide speed but every controlled landing to date has been successful.

You can't stall and you must have enough energy for the flare and initiate it at the right time. If this is the same pilot who had the paper towel in the intercooler a few years back, he did a really good job piloting on that one, resisting the desire to raise the nose and try to make the runway. He landed about 20 feet short and ripped the gear off. http://www.epi-eng.com/propeller_technology/propeller_damage_issues.htm
 
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This just came in from AOPA this morning.

http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?WT.svl=HPASFBLOG

Good article, I posted my 2 cents worth at the end. Lynn Farnsworth beat me to most of it; he has more Phantom time than I do and also flys one of the faster Legacies.

As I was writing it, it occurred to me that we have much better simulators today than existed in my "glory days." Maybe it would be a good idea to have required simulator practice of engine failure on takeoff / landing so that people can practice SAFE "crash landings?" Microsoft Flight Simulator with a Force Feedback joystick should be sufficient, and it simulates most aircraft types.

I have to believe it is that moment of indecision when the power quits that leads to so many bad endings - perhaps if they trained for that precise event, it would become a non-event and save lives.
 
I have to believe it is that moment of indecision when the power quits that leads to so many bad endings - perhaps if they trained for that precise event, it would become a non-event and save lives.

Totally agree.

This is what I was getting at in a prior post, when I suggested folks get some time in gliders.

Engines are not needed for flight, training is.
 
That's a silly rumor to start. I lost half my propeller over open water in the Bahamas a few years back. We glided over 20 miles and landed without incident.

While Lancairs do land a little hotter than RVs, they glide wonderfully and, if pilots don't panic and stall the airplane, can be landed successfully on any highway or, worst case, landed gear up in a field in under 500' of landing space with little damage other than ego.

Many of the accident reports I've seen lately suggest "loss of control." That sounds like someone trying to keep the nose up when the fan quits. While I am not an investigator of incidents such as these, it certainly sounds like at least some of these people were not practicing their emergency procedures.


I must take Georges side on this one. RV"s are safer than fast glass. I been there and done that. Not that lancairs or glasairs dont glide well, we all know they do, its just the speed they arrive at the scene of the crash that makes them so much more unsurvivable.
There are many threads that refer to how impact and speed dont follow the same graph. So a lancair IV that arrives at 90knots is a lot more deadly than a RV at 60 knots.
Practising procedures do help and yes should be frequently exersized, but wont remove all that extra speed ie impact.
 
High Impact Speeds

This latest Lancair crash occured right after takeoff, in the initial climb phase . When an engine fails in this phase of flight, there are few options in a high wing loading aircraft but to slam straight into what ever is in front of you at a high rate of speed and gathering descent rate. Lancairs have about 90 sq feet of wing area, which means 90+ mph impact speeds IF you keep it under control after the engine quits.

If an F4 experienced a dual engine failure right after takeoff, no amount of pilot skill would save the day. That's why they have two motors and ejection seats.

Training is good, but so is a reliable and well-maintained engine.
 
We all talk about training but very few pilots actually do it!

I know about 30 Lancair pilots and only 2 of them have EVER practiced a glide to landing in either a IV or a Legacy.

This is the reason there are fatalities. It's simple!

And all propeller airplanes glide to landing just fine -- ALL of them.

Dave T.
Lancair Legacy RG
 
Totally agree.

This is what I was getting at in a prior post, when I suggested folks get some time in gliders.

Engines are not needed for flight, training is.

I think the training should be done in the plane you fly. Know your plane. I am not saying that glider training won't help but an RV is not quite as good at gliding as a glider.
 
I must take Georges side on this one. RV"s are safer than fast glass. I been there and done that. Not that lancairs or glasairs dont glide well, we all know they do, its just the speed they arrive at the scene of the crash that makes them so much more unsurvivable.
There are many threads that refer to how impact and speed dont follow the same graph. So a lancair IV that arrives at 90knots is a lot more deadly than a RV at 60 knots.
Practising procedures do help and yes should be frequently exersized, but wont remove all that extra speed ie impact.

All that is true - horizontal velocity makes it likely that even a well-flared landing can result in injury. However, I have been focusing on the fact that many of the reported crashes involve "loss of control" - which is not the same as "landing too fast."

Landing gear-up in a Lancair in all but the roughest terrain will be like a ride in a tobaggan on gravel or grass - a bit bumpy and a rapid decelleration. Unless you drive straight into a vertical obstacle, however, you should survive it. If anything, I would think that a fixed gear plane would be more likely to flip and cause injury than a straight-ahead gear up landing.

Unless we are comparing apples to apples (e.g. straight ahead forced landings, not loss-of-control crashes) I don't believe that we can accurately compare the safety statistics. Too, things DO happen faster in glass, so there is that unmeasurable factor of whether or not the pilot simply chose an aircraft beyond their personal capabilities.
 
This latest Lancair crash occured right after takeoff, in the initial climb phase . When an engine fails in this phase of flight, there are few options in a high wing loading aircraft but to slam straight into what ever is in front of you at a high rate of speed and gathering descent rate. Lancairs have about 90 sq feet of wing area, which means 90+ mph impact speeds IF you keep it under control after the engine quits.

If an F4 experienced a dual engine failure right after takeoff, no amount of pilot skill would save the day. That's why they have two motors and ejection seats.

Training is good, but so is a reliable and well-maintained engine.

I think you might want do a bit more research on Lancair stall speeds - I believe you are operating from some misconceptions. It's bad enough when the AOPA folks start chanting that all RVers are "dangerous hot-dogs;" it doesn't help when within the experimental community we help promote erroneous notions.

Since they don't tend to take off out of short grass mountain airstrips, they generally have enough forward velocity at 50' to change heading by up to 30 degrees before flaring to land - and most airports try to ensure there are some options out there. 30 degrees is enough to choose to place your plane squarely between two trees or buildings. Since almost all of these accidents occurred further than that from the runway, I have to believe they had time to scan 10-2 o'clock and make a decision on a place to put it in. That is, if they didn't simply panic and pull the stick back in their lap because they hadn't trained for the eventuality. But, when we finally see the photos it almost always looks like they stalled and plummeted - not that they ran straight into the side of a concrete building.

As for the F-4 - yes, that is exactly why they put in ejection seats, and the "correct" action - which we practiced each and every month in the simulator - was to say, "Eject!" 3 times and then pull the handle. Following the practiced procedure WOULD "save the day," because the aircraft is expendable and the people are not.

Finally, I would ask a couple of questions of all you RV drivers:

Do you personally practice what you would do in the event of engine failure on takeoff? Have you ever practiced it mentally right after takeoff, simply looking outside and saying to yourself, "Boom - just lost my engine - aim right THERE and maintain airspeed until impact?"

If you have not (and I do regularly), then what do you imagine YOU will do if that day comes?
 
We all talk about training but very few pilots actually do it!

I know about 30 Lancair pilots and only 2 of them have EVER practiced a glide to landing in either a IV or a Legacy.

This is the reason there are fatalities. It's simple!

And all propeller airplanes glide to landing just fine -- ALL of them.

Dave T.
Lancair Legacy RG

Gliding not the problem. Speed you arrive at is.
 
All that is true - horizontal velocity makes it likely that even a well-flared landing can result in injury. However, I have been focusing on the fact that many of the reported crashes involve "loss of control" - which is not the same as "landing too fast."

Landing gear-up in a Lancair in all but the roughest terrain will be like a ride in a tobaggan on gravel or grass - a bit bumpy and a rapid decelleration. Unless you drive straight into a vertical obstacle, however, you should survive it. If anything, I would think that a fixed gear plane would be more likely to flip and cause injury than a straight-ahead gear up landing.

Unless we are comparing apples to apples (e.g. straight ahead forced landings, not loss-of-control crashes) I don't believe that we can accurately compare the safety statistics. Too, things DO happen faster in
glass, so there is that unmeasurable factor of whether or not the pilot simply chose an aircraft beyond their personal capabilities.

Must agree with the extra danger of the gear hanging out. Many fatalities have been caused by flipping over. Much less chance in a retract.
I guess training, good judgement and lotsa luck are your friends in a engine out situation .
 
Horizontal velocity better than vertical

I think the misconception about how to land a "hot" plane with an engine out is that most people have the idea that the slower you hit the better off you are. That's not true.

That works for a Cessna, but in a plane with a skinny wing you have to get enough speed to get your momentum going parallel with the earth after the flare, then your chances are much better at surviving. Even if you had to fly it into the tops of trees.
 
I think the misconception about how to land a "hot" plane with an engine out is that most people have the idea that the slower you hit the better off you are. That's not true.

That works for a Cessna, but in a plane with a skinny wing you have to get enough speed to get your momentum going parallel with the earth after the flare, then your chances are much better at surviving. Even if you had to fly it into the tops of trees.

Hitting something faster is safer than hitting something slower?

I think you are confusing airspeed and collision speed. The idea is to have the lowest vertical speed and the lowest horizontal speed POSSIBLE. So as most have stated you have to land faster in a Lancair than you do an RV or a Cessna or you will stall.
 
No silly just engineering and facts

That's a silly rumor to start. I lost half my propeller over open water in the Bahamas a few years back. We glided over 20 miles and landed without incident.

While Lancairs do land a little hotter than RVs, they glide wonderfully and, if pilots don't panic and stall the airplane, can be landed successfully on any highway or, worst case, landed gear up in a field in under 500' of landing space with little damage other than ego.

Many of the accident reports I've seen lately suggest "loss of control." That sounds like someone trying to keep the nose up when the fan quits. While I am not an investigator of incidents such as these, it certainly sounds like at least some of these people were not practicing their emergency procedures.
WHAT IS A SILLY RUMMOR?

It is my opinion the RV is a far superior platform for alternative engines because of the low stall speed, period, end of story, no silly or rumor.

You glided 20 miles? A stat mile is approx 5280 feet. On a good day with a tail wind you might see 9 to 1 glide ratio at the MOST. So 20 miles / by 9 is approx 2, so your where at about 11,500 feet? Yes you have options galore at 11,500. If you mean 20nm than you where above 13,000 feet. OK so how does that help if you are low and slow? A Boeing 747 can glide further than an RV and Lancair.

Read about AIR TRANSAT, a Airbust A330 that glided to a dead stick landing in the Terceira Azores (I have landed many times). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

"While Lancairs do land a little hotter than RVs" has got to be the understatement of the week. Its like saying a Ferrari is a little faster than a mini van. Also a little more speed = LOTS more energy. Your chance of survival or avoiding serious injury goes down exponentially as speed increases.

I totally disagree that a Lancair is as safe as an RV in an engine out situation. Kinetic energy is a square function and the Lancair is HOT and has high wing loading. It is in fact like a jet. Now as I pointed out above, jets have had successful engine out landings, some not so successful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_173
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52

It can be done but give me a plane with low landing speed any day for an engine out/off field landing.

Yes a lancair may have good glide ratio but its best glide speed (and thus vertical rate-O-descent) are also high. YOU ARE COMING DOWN FAST or faster than a RV. A Boeing 747 has a glide ratio of 18-to-1! Way better than an RV or Lancair. However off the top of my head the B747 best glide speed is Mach .79 or 290 kts! so your VSI is still pointed down pretty steep.


The rest of your post I agree with............"fly the plane", "don't stall", "don't lose control", "don't get too slow", "slow down (full flaps) right before impact", "tighten seat belts till you can stand it", "turn electrical and fuel off before impact", "hit w/ wings level".....................

Every pilot should be able to recite their emergency procedures immediately, even from being awaken from a deep sleep. It should be ingrained like a knee jerk reaction when the Doc hits your knee with the whacker. It should be like a Pavlov's Dog that drools when it heard the bell.....lower nose, trim best glide, pick a spot (which you should already have a situational awareness of) and go there. Than trouble shoot. EVERY FLIGHT BEFORE TAKE-OFF YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT (mentally rehearse) WHAT YOU WILL DO IF THE FAN STOPS.

It is all well and good to say it but you need to practice or think about it more than once every two years. I always like to do a power off landing abeam the numbers occasionally. I'll be honest, some times I mess it up and come over the #'s too fast and high (although the runway is 6000 feet long). Other times I cut it too close and end up having to add power (just for safety). Every one gets rusty.


Structure? Fiberglass or composites are terrible in deformation and absorbing energy. You hit it will get to a point and just fail, mean while transferring all that energy to the payload, YOU, the pilot. Metal deforms and absorbs energy. I am not making it up. This is not trivial. It is the dirty little secret of composites. Now with better energy absorbing seats, belts and even air bags (in an airplane yes) you can compensate for this. Passenger jets have 18G seats made to GIVE and absorb energy while not breaking lose, two contradictory requirements which makes design of aircraft seats difficult to certify. (Seats use to be 9G but they found the impact pulse was more critical thus the 18G's).

No silly or rumor just engineering facts, aerodynamics and airmanship. In NO WAY IS THIS LANCAIR BASHING. There are a few glue and string guys that come on the RV forums and spout how superior their Lancair is over a RV, but they are in denial about the negatives of the design. Every design has good, bad and ugly characteristics.

I will state again, in MY OPINION the RV is a safer plane than a Lancair, and of the RV's, the RV-9 is probably the safest with its VERY low stall speed. The safest plane? Well it depends on the pilot. A Lancair requires more skill and responsibility, because its a less forgiving plane.
 
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I like RVs but I think the glide ratio of a Lancair is at least 50% better than an RV and the best glide speed is not double so the rate of descent at best glide speed must be similar to an RV. The trouble comes when you don't maintain best glide but let it slip down to 75 or 80 knots. The rate of descent will well exceed 1500 FPM I'm guessing (Paul and other Lancair guys chime in here). Don't mind the store in an RV and you can get similar descent rates at 60 knots.

Agreed that once you touch down at 80-90 instead of 60 knots, things can be worse, especially if you hit more solid objects but you can easily be killed in an RV if you hit a big tree at 50 knots too. Touching down on level ground in a level attitude should not be too much of a concern in either aircraft.

The problem is not the plane, it is the guy on the controls most of the time.

An engine failure right after takeoff in any plane is bad and if there are things to hit, you can easily die in any plane.

I might add while some people have a dim view of alternative engines, one of the fatal Lancair accidents in 2008 involved massive failure of the Continental engine and three more had engine stoppages or partial power losses for unexplained reasons. Hardly a glowing endorsement of certified engines. There have been a number of turbine engined Lancairs also suffering power losses and forced landings recently up here. This post in the Alternative Engines section serves what purpose and has what to do with RVs? Maybe it is again beaten into our heads not to stall the airplane yet again.

I'll say it again, it matters not what is stamped on the valve covers if you only have one and it stops. Your forced landing skills better be up to par in any single engined aircraft you fly.

The CAFE test on the Legacy is here: http://www.lancairlegacy.com/Gallery_images/CAFE_Legacy_report.pdf

Glide ratio is 13.3, lowest sink is 1038 FPM, dirty stall a surprisingly low 57 knots. Hardly a deathtrap if you fly it right.
 
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This may be slightly off topic but is something I have thought alot about and just wanted to share my thoughts.

I always hate hearing about an accident. However, at the same time I try to find a lesson from the situation (as I am sure nearly every pilot does) ask what I would have done in that situation. I was working at Falcon Field when a lancair/columbia crashed there right after takeoff. So, of course there was a lot of hanger talk about it. The consenses, from the hanger talk was that it stalled after the engine quit. So, while I had already thought about what I would do if I lost an engine immediately after takeoff, at least that little rambling I have my students give about what there gonna do if something happens. The accident forced me to think and solidify how I am going to happen that situation if it ever happens to me. (KEEP THE NOSE DOWN)

When I was in training, we lost one our main brakes which reduced our turning radius and stopping power. While we were taxiing in after landing, we had to make a turn. Couldn't do it and couldn't stop and we were slowly kreeping towards a taxi light. I, at that point was hoping on a wing and a prayer that the brake would somehow stop us before we hit the light. My instructor on the other hand, reached down and pulled the mixture and avoided an engine rebuild.

This situation totally freaked me out because I didn't think during the situation to pull the mixture. So, I had it set in my mind that if this situation ever happened again, I would pull the mixture. It's better to shut the engine off than hit a light, duh. Fast forward a few years, and I am giving a discovery flight, this time I am the instructor. I was letting the discoveree taxi, he got a little left, I told him right, he pushed left, straight for a runway light, I hit the brakes, not good enough. Guess what, I pulled the mixture. Didn't hit the light and no rebuild.

One more example. My very very good instructor that took me through private and was basically my mentor in aviation, on several occasions, pulled the power on me unexpectedly, 5-15 ft off the ground on takeoff. He grilled in the response that I needed to have. (Flaps down nose down land straight ahead, and we would actually land straight ahead on one of our longer runways.) Sure enough, one of my first students, who was a private pilot, left the oil cap off, and right after liftoff, said, "I HAVE OIL!". looked over saw the oil, instinct kicked in and landed straight ahead and kept it on the runway. I had always thought that was just my instructor's pet peve but now I am grateful that he forced me to be in that situation and to think about and develope/be taught a response for what I would do in that situation. (I know we could have possibly made it around the pattern several times with the cap off without our engine quiting on us. But I didn't know that it was just the cap at the time, and we had runway that wouldn't be there in a couple of seconds.)

What is the point? I believe it is important to put ourselves, at least in our minds, in the pilot's seat in these accidents and develope an automatic response to a bad situation. Make the decision to sacrifice the plane rather than lives ahead of time so that decision doesn't have to be made under pressure. Just my two cents, like I said I have given this quite a bit of thought over the years and just wanted to express it in writing. Needless to say, it is awsome that this site has a place to discuss accidents and incidents.

Disclaimer: Don't do anything stupid.
 
Good points but....

I like RVs but I think the glide ratio of a Lancair is at least 50% better than an RV and the best glide speed is not double so the rate of descent at best glide speed must be similar to an RV. The trouble comes when you don't maintain best glide but let it slip down to 75 or 80 knots. The rate of descent will well exceed 1500 FPM I'm guessing (Paul and other Lancair guys chime in here). Don't mind the store in an RV and you can get similar descent rates at 60 knots.

Agreed that once you touch down at 80-90 instead of 60 knots, things can be worse, especially if you hit more solid objects but you can easily be killed in an RV if you hit a big tree at 50 knots too. Touching down on level ground in a level attitude should not be too much of a concern in either aircraft.

The problem is not the plane, it is the guy on the controls most of the time.

An engine failure right after takeoff in any plane is bad and if there are things to hit, you can easily die in any plane.

I might add while some people have a dim view of alternative engines, one of the fatal Lancair accidents in 2008 involved massive failure of the Continental engine and three more had engine stoppages or partial power losses for unexplained reasons. Hardly a glowing endorsement of certified engines. There have been a number of turbine engined Lancairs also suffering power losses and forced landings recently up here. This post in the Alternative Engines section serves what purpose and has what to do with RVs? Maybe it is again beaten into our heads not to stall the airplane yet again.

I'll say it again, it matters not what is stamped on the valve covers if you only have one and it stops. Your forced landing skills better be up to par in any single engined aircraft you fly.

The CAFE test on the Legacy is here: http://www.lancairlegacy.com/Gallery_images/CAFE_Legacy_report.pdf

Glide ratio is 13.3, lowest sink is 1038 FPM, dirty stall a surprisingly low 57 knots. Hardly a deathtrap if you fly it right.
Ross, NO ONE said death trap, just not as safe in an engine out off field scenario as a RV.

Stall for RV-9A from the Cafe foundation is as low as 49 mph or 42kts.

(57/42)^2 = 1.84 or 84% MORE ENERGY! Ouch! :eek:

I believe the Lancair IV-P is about 60 knots dirty and 78 kts clean ! (ref Cafe Foundation) RV's have MUCH LOWER clean stall speeds.

Glide ratio is hard to measure with an engine running (idle), which cafe foundation is limited to, as we all are during flight test. Cafe foundation reported glide ratio and sink/speed (sometimes with partial power to simulate "zero thrust" which is not a true engine out glide ratio):

Lancair 320 - 15.8:1 ; 664 fpm @ 104 mph CAS
Lancair IV-P - 13.8:1 ; 820 fpm @ 123 mph CAS
Legacy - 13.3:1 ; 1038 fpm @ 96 mph CAS
RV-9A - 12:1 664.2 fpm @ 81.7 mph TAS
RV-6A - 11.4 ; 749 fpm @ 80.5 mph CAS
RV-8A - 9.5:1 ; 907.7 fpm @ 81.6 mph CAS


I think 14" of MAP was used for the Lancair Legacy test, which us not ENGINE out. Even dirty stalls where done with some power. The power they used was somewhat arbatry from report to report, using different MAP/RPM from plane to plane.

The reason for partial power for stalls is to stabilize the plane and give more elevator control authority. The reason to add a little power for glide is to eliminate the affect of prop drag................but that is not fair for REAL WORLD ENGINE OUT. In fact the Lancairs with their multi blade MT's props are more likely to have much less glide than reported, than they did using some power for their tests. Cafe did use partial power glide ratio test; they where trying for "Aerodynamic" best L/D of the airframe with out influance of prop drag, aka "zero thrust".

The Lancairs have good glide but at a higher fwd airspeed and slightly higher SINK overall. However when considering clean stall speed, the Lancair Lagecy and IV-P are very high, making a big difference. In an emergency close to the ground will you get the flaps out? Vs1 and Vso for a RV are pretty close.

The point I made before was a B747 has a 18:1 glide ratio. Which plane would you rather make a dead stick landing onto a short field with?

The biggest factor is the pilot. Is the pilot going to finesse the airplane for best glide in an emergency? Is the pilot going to get the flaps out at the last second under pressure? The RV difference in clean / dirty stall speed is not that different. With the Lancair it could be deadly not getting the flaps out.

Cheers George (RV's are better than Lancairs......... disagree? you are on the wrong list. :D )
 
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Hitting something faster is safer than hitting something slower?

I think you are confusing airspeed and collision speed. The idea is to have the lowest vertical speed and the lowest horizontal speed POSSIBLE. So as most have stated you have to land faster in a Lancair than you do an RV or a Cessna or you will stall.

Not confused at all. In a "hot" plane if you are too close to the stall you cannot arrest the sink rate in the flare and you will stick like a lawn dart. If you maintain your speed until after the flare your momentum is heading forward (horizontal), and not down (vertical) and unless you hit something unmovable you are much better off. And if you carry the speed down you have the chance of making a small correction in direction to miss a unmovable object. Trying to go as slow as possible to crash site is not the ticket in a lancair. Fly it in and get your momentum going parrellel with the ground. Statistics show that if the nose is up when you hit then you have much better chance of surviving, even into trees.
 
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Not confused at all. In a "hot" plane if you are too close to the stall you cannot arrest the sink rate in the flare and you will stick like a lawn dart. If you maintain your speed until after the flare your momentum is heading sideways, and unless you hit something unmovable you are much better off. Trying to go as slow as possible to crash site is not the ticket in a lancair. Fly it in and get your momentum going sideways, not down. Statistics show that if the nose is up then you have much better chance of surviving, even into trees.

Are you saying. hold onto your energy until you get in ground effect and then bleed it off? By "sideways" do you mean "forward" "across the ground"?:confused:

Ramblings trying to figure out what is being said:
If your in the region of reverse command, (where if you pull up you go down faster and if you push forward you go down slower) you will have a nose high attitude when you hit the trees and you will be going slower. but you will be going down faster.:confused::confused:
 
I like RVs but I think the glide ratio of a Lancair is at least 50% better than an RV and the best glide speed is not double so the rate of descent at best glide speed must be similar to an RV. The trouble comes when you don't maintain best glide but let it slip down to 75 or 80 knots. The rate of descent will well exceed 1500 FPM I'm guessing (Paul and other Lancair guys chime in here). Don't mind the store in an RV and you can get similar descent rates at 60 knots.

Agreed that once you touch down at 80-90 instead of 60 knots, things can be worse, especially if you hit more solid objects but you can easily be killed in an RV if you hit a big tree at 50 knots too. Touching down on level ground in a level attitude should not be too much of a concern in either aircraft.

The problem is not the plane, it is the guy on the controls most of the time.

An engine failure right after takeoff in any plane is bad and if there are things to hit, you can easily die in any plane.

I might add while some people have a dim view of alternative engines, one of the fatal Lancair accidents in 2008 involved massive failure of the Continental engine and three more had engine stoppages or partial power losses for unexplained reasons. Hardly a glowing endorsement of certified engines. There have been a number of turbine engined Lancairs also suffering power losses and forced landings recently up here. This post in the Alternative Engines section serves what purpose and has what to do with RVs? Maybe it is again beaten into our heads not to stall the airplane yet again.

I'll say it again, it matters not what is stamped on the valve covers if you only have one and it stops. Your forced landing skills better be up to par in any single engined aircraft you fly.

The CAFE test on the Legacy is here: http://www.lancairlegacy.com/Gallery_images/CAFE_Legacy_report.pdf

Glide ratio is 13.3, lowest sink is 1038 FPM, dirty stall a surprisingly low 57 knots. Hardly a deathtrap if you fly it right.

My Glasair 3 decented at over 3000fpm at 90knots. It also stalled at 75knots weight depending. If I did a off field in that flying manhole cover my chance of survival would have been very slim unless I had perfect terrain. I think not all hot glass is the same .Some are a lot safer than others. The Lancair IV is not.
 
"Structure? Fiberglass or composites are terrible in deformation and absorbing energy. You hit it will get to a point and just fail, mean while transferring all that energy to the payload, YOU, the pilot. Metal deforms and absorbs energy. I am not making it up. This is not trivial. It is the dirty little secret of composites..."

I'm with George on this one. Several years ago I met a fellow at Mojave airport who had (barely) survived an engine failure just after liftoff in a VariEze at about 90kts. The plane completely disintegrated on impact, leaving him, the debris, and his dead friend on the runway. He spent the next 9 months recuperating from his injuries. He had a Cessna 172 when we met, & swore to NEVER again fly in a composite plane.

Fast forward to about 18 months or so ago. I read somewhere the account of a similar incident regarding the pilot of a RV-3 where his best option was to land in the driveway of a mobile home park. After a successful landing at ~80kts, he saw a large tree straight ahead. He hit full right rudder and impacted the tree square on the tip of his right wing, which crumpled like a squashed beer can.
He was stunned and covered with gasoline, but was able to get out and stagger away without serious injuries.

I have a friend who bought and finished a partially built Lancair Legacy who wants to take me for a ride when he gets his testing hours finished. Frankly, after reading this and other similar threads plus the experiences mentioned in this post, I am rather loathe to accept his kind invitation. Maybe after he gets 120 hours or more on it, but definitely not now.

Just my dos centavos worth. No brickbats intended.

Joe
 
"Structure? Fiberglass or composites are terrible in deformation and absorbing energy. You hit it will get to a point and just fail, mean while transferring all that energy to the payload, YOU, the pilot. Metal deforms and absorbs energy. I am not making it up. This is not trivial. It is the dirty little secret of composites..."

Not completely true. I have crashed a composite that lands about 20KTS faster than an RV and sinks a **** of a lot faster. Walked away with trivial injury and the plane will fly again. Had I hit at the same velocity and sink rate in my F1 (a metal plane ) the engine would have deformed right into my lap leaving me quite dead.

There are many components on a composite that will absorb impact ie landing gear, engine and engine mount, cowling.

Your science about deformation is correct but the conclusion suggests that composite planes are death traps compared to metal aircraft. This just ain't so.

It depends on what you hit, how you hit it and as mentioned a combination of your vertical and horizontal velocities.

Survivability in a composite is everybit as survivable as in metal if not more so.
 
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I spent some time a few weeks ago harassing a couple of jerks on AOPA for insisting that ALL RV pilots were dangerous hot-dogs. It isn't true, and saying such things on forums which can be read by the Press gives the public one more chink in the armor of our freedom to fly. I don't let such things pass, because if we are to retain our freedom to fly we must be united as a community and not allow the use of inaccurate absolute statements that the Press might use against us in one of their "All small aircraft are DEADLY!" campaigns.

In the lengthy reply to you post that follows, please understand that I am not saying there is not a small degree of safety difference when flying a slower (and therefore inferior!... :) ) airplane than a Lancair - I am instead asking you to stop using ridiculous absolute statements liable to be misunderstood by younger pilots and non-flyers.

WHAT IS A SILLY RUMMOR?

What you said -

At least if the fan stops you have a chance.

And, like I said that is silly. Lots of people have "lost the fan" in Lancairs and have been fine.

It is my opinion the RV is a far superior platform for alternative engines because of the low stall speed, period, end of story, no silly or rumor.

You are welcome to your opinion, and it is probably true under some circumstances that there is a safety advantage in the RVs. But, the difference is more like a few percentage points on the bell curve than not having any chance. For me, given my own assessment of my piloting skills I believe that having a retractable gear aircraft gives me options that RVs simply don't give you that could save my life under some circumstances. Whether or not that compensates for the additional landing speed I cannot say and I believe that the result would be pilot-dependent.

In any event, spreading rumors that Lancairs are death traps in an engine out scenario is, well, silly.

You glided 20 miles? A stat mile is approx 5280 feet. On a good day with a tail wind you might see 9 to 1 glide ratio at the MOST. So 20 miles / by 9 is approx 2, so your where at about 11,500 feet?

No, I was at 8500' when the propeller broke. My Garmin 295 was running in the "cookie crumbs" mode, and after the flight it was very easy to measure the distance traveled. That equates to a 12.5:1 glide ratio, something you are not likely to see in your RV. Oh, and the wind was nearly calm, but based on GPS ground speed in cruise before the incident I was getting an extra 5 knots across the ground. Full disclosure - the engine did not quit but was in idle with 3/4 of a fixed pitch propeller.

Yes you have options galore at 11,500. If you mean 20nm than you where above 13,000 feet. OK so how does that help if you are low and slow? A Boeing 747 can glide further than an RV and Lancair.

Again, if you are not performing a max performance takeoff you have velocity above stall speed, enough that immediately lowering your nose will allow for a controlled impact.

Read about AIR TRANSAT, a Airbust A330 that glided to a dead stick landing in the Terceira Azores (I have landed many times). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236

I have - it's a good read! However, I'm not sure how that relates to landing a Lancair...

"While Lancairs do land a little hotter than RVs" has got to be the understatement of the week. Its like saying a Ferrari is a little faster than a mini van. Also a little more speed = LOTS more energy. Your chance of survival or avoiding serious injury goes down exponentially as speed increases.

Forward velocity is not typically what kills people in a power out incident. Failure to control the aircraft all the way to a landing point without any vertical opstacles in the way is. No one is arguing that, given NO place with a few hundred feet of clear area to land in that you are S.O.L., and that goes for RVs as well as for Lancairs with RVs having a better chance. What I am objecting to is your description of Lancairs as having no chance. It simply is not true.

I totally disagree that a Lancair is as safe as an RV in an engine out situation. Kinetic energy is a square function and the Lancair is HOT and has high wing loading. It is in fact like a jet. Now as I pointed out above, jets have had successful engine out landings, some not so successful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_173
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52

No, a Lancair is about like a Mooney - not a jet. Landing speed just over 60mph compared to about 45 for an RV. That is about twice the energy on landing as an RV, but not necessarily fatal.

It can be done but give me a plane with low landing speed any day for an engine out/off field landing.

I heartily encourage you all to fly the plane that you prefer! :)

Yes a lancair may have good glide ratio but its best glide speed (and thus vertical rate-O-descent) are also high. YOU ARE COMING DOWN FAST or faster than a RV. A Boeing 747 has a glide ratio of 18-to-1! Way better than an RV or Lancair. However off the top of my head the B747 best glide speed is Mach .79 or 290 kts! so your VSI is still pointed down pretty steep.

The rate of descent (FPM) for a Lancair is similar to an RV, so the time to landing is about the same. Then there is this maneuver called a flare...

I have no problem with the rest of your post, and even agree that a slower landing speed is safer IF that is the only consideration. But, since that is only a very small factor in the universe of causes of fatal landings, it would be nice if you were to understand that that alone does not mean that RVs are 100% superior in safety - because that is simply not true. As discussed previously, landing gear-up can prevent a fatal flipover ins some situations - so the degree of danger is extremely dependent upon the actual landing site - there is no single number to tell us in every situation what your "odds of dying" are. Given a pilot who is current and practices their emergency procedures, I would expect that a fatal result in an engine out situation is only a few percentage points more than an RV - a risk level that is up to the individual pilot to decide whether or not to accept.

Time to head to the airport!
 
Lessons can be Learned.

Well George, as the numbers say, descent rates are similar on RVs and Lancairs so that argument doesn't wash. I think Paul L. stated that his 235/320 only descended at mid 600 fpm or so power off. I'm at about 1000 fpm on my 6A.

One guy up here has had two flame outs in two different turbine IV-Ps and bellied in both times with no injuries. It absolutely can be done. I agree that on rough ground, I'd rather be in a retractable to avoid the chances of the gear digging in and flipping an RV.

I can think of at least 4 fatal RV accidents in the last few years where the pilots did not stall but got well under best glide speed and died from high vertical impact forces. This nearly got me and I'll stress again- don't get yourself into this corner because at 50-100 feet, the rate that the ground is rushing up at you will almost certainly kick in the self preservation mode to yank back and you will be dead. If you get up to 1500 fpm at say 60 knots, that's 25 FPS, you have 2-4 seconds before impact and even lowering the nose immediately will not recover your airspeed before you have to flare. You won't have the energy or control response for a flare and you are GOING to get hurt.

The hardest thing I ever did at about 200 feet and 65 knots was to push even more forward than I already was which was already filling the windshield with earth. Another thing I did was a gentle turn of about 30 degrees bank to align the aircraft into wind and land parallel to the furrows. With the low aspect ratio RV wing, this caused a large loss in airspeed as induced drag increases 33.3%. So, good decision to land into wind to reduce ground speed, good decision to land parallel to the furrows (nose gear folded but we did not flip over), not so good decision to lose 15 knots of airspeed and increase the rate of descent so close to the ground. I had enough altitude to get back to about 75 knots at touchdown. Isn't hindsight great.

I'm still here, but I'll never forget that experience. I learned many lessons the hard way with this one.

Our pre-takeoff briefing includes the pilot not flying to call out airspeed (and interject with TOO SLOW callouts) in the event of an engine failure and to handle the emergency switches and fuel selector. Last week we were practicing power loss in climb attitude to get an idea of the amount of pitch over to maintain 85 knots. It is fairly serious on my RV because best climb is 85 knots. Everyone should do this simple exercise frequently. There is no excuse for stalling with two pilots aboard but we have seen many accidents like this. SPEAK UP. It could be your life too.

I hope we can agree whether you pilot a Shuttle, F86, Lancair, RV or J3 we all have a good chance to survive a gliding landing (given suitable terrain) as long as we maintain best glide speed to the flare. This part has nothing to do with the airframe and everything to do with pilot.

As a side note, we see many engine outs on auto engines caused by fuel pickup issues, especially in climb and high banked attitudes on low wing aircraft. I've steered people away from some proposed fuel systems before they built them. Use a proven layout and test it lots on the ground at extreme pitch attitudes before you fly. With EFI, submerged pumps in the wing tanks are a bad idea without a header tank as they can become unported at high bank angles, low fuel levels and with uncoordinated rudder use. The engine can stop immediately and some pump designs to not re-prime easily. Header tanks are a really good idea on low wing aircraft IMO.
 
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Gliding not the problem. Speed you arrive at is.

nah, as long as you land on something relatively smooth speed is not the issue.

hitting something that is close to perpendicular to your line of flight is the bad thing.
 
"Structure? Fiberglass or composites are terrible in deformation and absorbing energy. You hit it will get to a point and just fail, mean while transferring all that energy to the payload, YOU, the pilot. Metal deforms and absorbs energy. I am not making it up. This is not trivial. It is the dirty little secret of composites..."

I'm with George on this one. Several years ago I met a fellow at Mojave airport who had (barely) survived an engine failure just after liftoff in a VariEze at about 90kts. The plane completely disintegrated on impact, leaving him, the debris, and his dead friend on the runway. He spent the next 9 months recuperating from his injuries. He had a Cessna 172 when we met, & swore to NEVER again fly in a composite plane.

Fast forward to about 18 months or so ago. I read somewhere the account of a similar incident regarding the pilot of a RV-3 where his best option was to land in the driveway of a mobile home park. After a successful landing at ~80kts, he saw a large tree straight ahead. He hit full right rudder and impacted the tree square on the tip of his right wing, which crumpled like a squashed beer can.
He was stunned and covered with gasoline, but was able to get out and stagger away without serious injuries.

I have a friend who bought and finished a partially built Lancair Legacy who wants to take me for a ride when he gets his testing hours finished. Frankly, after reading this and other similar threads plus the experiences mentioned in this post, I am rather loathe to accept his kind invitation. Maybe after he gets 120 hours or more on it, but definitely not now.

Just my dos centavos worth. No brickbats intended.

Joe

just to be clear, you are basing your fear and loathing of composite planes on two subjective 2nd hand experiences?
 
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Take the emotion out of it, please

Not completely true. I have crashed a composite that lands about 20KTS faster than an RV and sinks a **** of a lot faster. Walked away with trivial injury and the plane will fly again. Had I hit at the same velocity and sink rate in my F1 (a metal plane ) the engine would have deformed right into my lap leaving me quite dead.

There are many components on a composite that will absorb impact ie landing gear, engine and engine mount, cowling.

Your science about deformation is correct but the conclusion suggests that composite planes are death traps compared to metal aircraft. This just ain't so.

It depends on what you hit, how you hit it and as mentioned a combination of your vertical and horizontal velocities.

Survivability in a composite is every bit as survivable as in metal if not moreso.
I was a Boeing engineer on composite analysis years ago out of college. I'm appreciate your opinion, its just not based on facts. Composites don't deflect, yield or deform, they take ultimate load and fracture. You can make sacrificial composite structure to absorb energy but not primary structure like wings and fuselage.

WHO IN THE HECK SAID DEATH TRAP? :confused: I NEVER SAID THAT! However they (all composite) planes just are not as "friendly" in a crash, period, especially ones with higher stall speeds.

With out emotions, look at cold hard facts. Composite structure can be very strong, durable and safe............... however the STRESS-STRAIN diagram says it all. IT DOES NOT ABSORB ENERGY. One strategy is make it heck for stout, so it does NOT FAIL at all ever. Yes that's great but also very heavy. Most composite planes are as heavy or heavier than equiv metal planes or rag-n-tube planes because "when in doubt make it stout". Most composite planes are overbuilt for flight loads, which is a bonus in a crash. When a metal plane crashes it "balls up". When a composite plane crashes it cracks and burns to the ground. You don't ball up composites.

The energy absorbing characteristics of structural composite materials are suckie (engineering term). Metal bends, deforms and absorbs energy. The RV is not Gods gift to aviation crash worthiness. Far from it, it is fairly light structure and YES your feet are right on the firewall next to the engine, BUT THAT IS NOT THE TOPIC. Lets stay focused. These discussions always turn to "but oh yea well your xyz is this and that". RV's have nothing to do with Lancairs, except they are both planes.

For a bush plane that might crash into trees middle of no where, give me a steel truss airframe (aka, Cub, Maule), super strong, maintains integrity (yields not fractures) and absorbs energy.

Given a choice of making an off field engine-out landing in a Lancair IV-P -OR- RV (any), put me in the RV. Given a choice of any plane, a super Cub with stall kit, 5 pt harness and helmet. :D I know talk of crashing is emotional, but we assume some risk when we fly regardless of the model plane we fly. This idea you can crash and die is not really news. I highly suggest not crashing. :D


You're changing the subject with your composite plane saved your life and think the F1 (Rocket) would have been fatal story. It is also vague. What kind of plane and accident was it? Sorry I don't know the details.

There are scenarios where a composite plane might not fail in a crash, maintains engine mount, wing tanks and cabin envelope remains intact. Where a metal plane in the same crash may deform too much and be worse. Sure they say wearing your seat belt in a car can kill you sometimes? Could happen.

If you make the composite plane very strong, which many are, it adds weight, lots of weight. You can't make a plane 100% crash proof survivable.

You're also right, a hit directly on the noise of an RV, pushes the engine up and back, more than likely rotating it into the cockpit area. With the compact design of RV's, your feet are right there. I have seen two accidents where the impact direction and force was great enough to cause this to happen, both fatal, most likely stall spins. The whole plane was intact but the engine came back into the cockpit. Lesson? Don't stall-spin or stuff your RV straight into the ground because it will hurt (not for long however). HOW TO FIX THAT? You could "fuse" the engine mount (make it weaker so it fails first) and beef up the aft firewall structure that takes engine loads.

The idea in an off field crash, you hope if you hit something, the landing gear, wings, tail, aft fuselage takes the blunt of it and the energy VECTOR is more horizontal than vertical.

Lets face it, we sit over a wing spar (not directly thank goodness), under a plastic bubble*, with thin metal sides and a couple of angles. Still that stuff does provide protection. You really hope the wings, tail, aft-fuselage and gear take most of the initial impact, to absorb the energy. An accident with a large vertical component (like a spin) is hard to survive in any airplane because the human body can take many many times more G-force in the Fwd/Aft direction than vertical. *(Except for the -10, which happens to have a composite roof. The RV-10 is probably safer because its bigger, more metal to absorb energy.)

The topic is not to BASH RV's to make composite airplane pilots feel better. Composite pilots should know the limitations of the kind of material their plane is made from. Why not accept that limit? Knowledge is power. People ascribe all kinds of great things to composites, some of it is true, but there are down sides.

What you find with Lancair or **Legend accidents, is they burn to the ground after an off field landing. The fuel tanks often lose integrity (meaning fail). I avoid flying planes with fuel tanks behind the instrument panel or under the seats. Many Glasairs have wet-center section tanks. No thanks. Keep the fuel out side the fuselage. RV's separate wing "fuel cells" are pretty good. May be a bladder would add more protection but also weight **(Turbine two seat tandem P-51'ish kit plane)

Everyone is so sensitive. Composite planes with higher than average landing or stall speeds are therefore have LESS crash survivability statistically and from an engineering standpoint. Their is no debate about that. There are many many ways to mitigate this, but typical composite kit planes don't have these safety features, one being 18G seats. I worked on aircraft airline seats, and they are made to move and bend with out failure to absorb energy without transfering that energy to the seat occupant. They cost a lot and there may be no room in a homebuilt plane for one. (Take a good look next time you are on an airliner.....look under those uncomfortable seats at the structure....a lot of work went into them to make them sturdy but "soft" enough to not transfer forces into the occupant.)

I don't have a grudge against composite materials and studied it in college and analysed it for a living, for a time. It is great stuff, but aluminum has a slight edge in an accident material wise. Design and how you use those materials is a different issue. I am talking material only.

Planes like the Sukhoi Su-29 Tandem two-seat aerobatic aircraft, has 60% composite. Why not 100%. Because they where smart and used steel truss fuselage (covered in graphite/honeycomb panels). Why? Its better, lighter and crash survivability is better than an all composite fuselage. The SU-29 has an ejection seat option! The wing limit is 18G ultimate (12G limit)!
 
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This is an interesting discussion on crash survival composite vs. metal. I submit that either can be designed to accomplish lower deceleration forces. Lots of people have survived 50G crashes in composite F1 and Indy cars because they were designed for this. Airplanes are generally not designed for crash forces in the horizontal direction - well maybe the seats these days.

George's advice not to crash is really the best.

In my forced landing, the G meter tell tale was stuck at 7 Gs (vertical component). I attribute our lack of injuries from this component to the Temper Foam seat cushions and 4 inch open cell foam boosters we had. Even a few inches of stopping distance dramatically reduces G forces the body sees. Structure deformation on impact is very important in this equation. My neck was only slightly sore for a couple days. Horizontal deceleration was maybe 2 Gs so that was nothing and we hit no solid objects.

Whether composite or metal, no deformation equals high G loads being transferred to the occupants.

I had the sad task last month assisting the TSB investigate an accident which killed a friend of mine. This was a composite aircraft and the lack of structure deformation made the G forces on the pilot completely unsurvivable unfortunately. In this case, the same would be true for a metal structure. The aircraft was very intact except one wing broke off at the root. All the major pieces were substantially intact and could have been used again. An amazingly strong aircraft but not good from an occupant G force perspective.

The way most aircraft we fly are designed today, I believe that sheet metal aircraft offer the best deformation and lowest occupant G forces in crashes with 5-15 Gs of vertical and horizontal component but much depends on the actual dynamics and vectors at impact. When G forces exceed 25 in an aircraft, you are probably dead. Above 15 Gs of vertical component, you will probably have some fair to serious spinal injury. 15 Gs in the horizontal is fairly survivable with proper harnesses and belt angles if major deformation of the structure does not intrude and injure the occupants directly.

George is right in saying that statistically you have a greater chance of being killed in a Lancair engine out than an RV. With better training, perhaps the odds can be improved a bit.
 
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You're changing the subject with your composite plane saved your life and think the F1 (Rocket) would have been fatal story. It is also vauge. What kind of plane and accident was it? Sorry I don't know the details.

George, take a look at this thread. Photos on post 37
 
just to be clear, you are basing your fear and loathing of composite planes on two subjective 2nd hand experiences?

Danny7, just to be clear, where did you get my supposed "fear and loathing of composite planes" based upon "two subjective 2nd hand experiences" from? That is quite a stretch from what I posted, or intended.

For what it's worth, I tend to use an economy of words and thoughts. When I used "loathe to accept.." it was intended as an idiom meaning disinclined or reticent. If you wish to suggest something more appropriate, I am open to constructive comments. However, if your intent was only to criticize or to deflect attention from my comments, then may I suggest, in the words of a blogger on another forum, that you "not waste your time on molehill mountaineering".

Peace, Joe
 
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