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Trouble in Paradise

Av8torTom

Av8torTom

Well Known Member
Ok, so I picked-up a nearly completed empennage yesterday. Today I was looking at the plans and noticed what I think is a HUGE mistake.

HSFrontSpar.jpg


The reinf. angle (HS-710) looks to be mounted upside down (in HS is laying on the upper surface in the photo).

Any suggestions??? - help!! :confused:

Tom
 
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Yep - upside down, and the two rivets at each end look kinda sketchy. How is the rest of the construction?
 
I'm an RV-6 guy but agree with your observation. It would't be *that* hard to fix for an experienced builder. (It's amazing the things that seem to be extremely challenging at first but which are easy 10,000 rivets later.) However, the two rivets that are adjacent on the vertical plane near the end of that reinforcement seem odd too. If those aren't according to plan, they could be a bigger issue than the (potentially) reversed flange.
 
Rest looks OK

The construction looks VERY good - everything nice and flat, trailing edge seams are perfect, and can't see many questionable rivets.

Can that piece be removed easily??? Yes, the rivets on the end are messed-up too.... uuughh!!!
 
Call Van's

The reinforcement angle is definitely mounted upside down. Although nothing attaches to the flange on the HS-710 reinforcement angle, it may be OK, but I'd call VAN's to get their take on it. I'd also be very concerned about the dual holes/rivets on each end of the angle.
 
EAA Counselor and Vans

I sent an email with the picture to Vans, and I just talked to an EAA counselor who happens to live in my town. He's going to take a look at it tomorrow.

The right side of HS-710 has two rivets which don't show on the plans. The left side only has one rivet, but there is another hole drilled below that without a rivet in it. Wondering if the piece came with two holes drilled in those locations.
 
Av8torTom said:
The right side of HS-710 has two rivets which don't show on the plans. ... Wondering if the piece came with two holes drilled in those locations.
Click to expand...

That piece comes undrilled - the builder makes it from angle aluminum stock.
 
Check the edge distance...

...of the two center rivets on the top (as pictured) angle. The edge distance may be compromised on the channel side of the spar not shown in the picture.

The rivets seem to be almost in the radius of the angle stock.
 
Edge Distance

Yes, don't know why they are so close to the bend in the HS-714. The edge distance on the other side is 3/8". I'm new to all this - what is an acceptable edge distance?

Thanks...
 
Two times the rivet...

Av8torTom said:
Yes, don't know why they are so close to the bend in the HS-714. The edge distance on the other side is 3/8". I'm new to all this - what is an acceptable edge distance?

Thanks...
Click to expand...

..diameter - measured to the center of the hole.

3/8 is fine....:)
 
That picture scares me. My -6A is far from perfect, especially the empennage that was the first riveting I ever did. However, I at least got the parts in the right places and my rivet lines are straight. I'm guessing those parts can't have been pre-punched because the rivet line on the angle that is oriented correctly wanders and then the doubled rivets that have already been discussed. The -7/7A plans show them to be straight and centered on the flange. I'm pessimistically thinking the entire front spar needs to be replaced; it would almost be easier to start over. I hope the adviser can give you better news when he visits; it's hard to really tell anything from a photo.
 
The rivet pattern in the angle at the top of the picture seems incorrect too. I built a 9 so not sure what a 7 looks like but that looks strange.
 
One thing to be careful of: the portions of those angles that extend into the 'sealed' portion of the HS - are the rivets good on those?

From my old build log photos:

06-29-03-HStab-Fore-Spar-Rivet.jpg
 
My concern is less about the reinforcement angle (because that can be seen and fixed) than it is about the rest of the empennage construction. You say that the rest of the construction looks very good but with the pre-punched kit it would be hard for it to look bad...from the outside. That one picture shows several questionable areas. It's just not the sign of a good builder. Get your tech counselor to do a thorough inspection. Fortunately, everything is always fixable - even if you have to rebuild a part. It's good practice for the wings anyway :)

Let us know what Vans has to say. They tend to be very unforgiving about problems with that reinforcement angle (with good reason I would assume). He screwed up one of the few critical areas on the empennage. You'll likely have to remove and replace the HS-710, which is no small job unfortunately. It involves opening the wing skins and possibly even removing the inboard ribs. But it might be a good opportunity to get a peek at the rest of the construction.

Either way, it's small potatoes to the overall build. Fix the issues and move on.
 
I made a similar mistake

When I built my emp, I mis-drilled those holes and would have had to double up the rivets as in your picture. When I called Vans, Ken Scott said I had effectively weakened that reinforcement to 1/3rd its strength... my response, "put me through to sales and I'll order a replacement piece of AA and remake the part."
 
No it doesn't, Tom

Av8torTom said:
The construction looks VERY good - everything nice and flat, trailing edge seams are perfect, and can't see many questionable rivets.

!!!
Click to expand...

...the construction looks lousy! Look at the zig-zag line of rivets on the upper piece...never a line drawn, so I'd be very suspicious of the internal construction as well and do a careful flashlight/mirror inspection.

Good luck,
 
pierre smith said:
...the construction looks lousy! Look at the zig-zag line of rivets on the upper piece...never a line drawn, so I'd be very suspicious of the internal construction......
Click to expand...
I completely agree with Pierre. There is no way I would characterize this horizontal stab's craftsmanship as anything remotely approaching "very good." In addition to the HS-710 installed upside down, there are so many fundamental building errors and structural compromises depicted in the photo that I would be deeply suspicious of internal details the photo cannot show. This is exactly why I have always said I would be more comfortable buying a certificated airplane than a random homebuilt. A certificated aircraft guarantees the buyer some minimum level of craftsmanship that went out the factory gates. Alternatively, and as comments have shown, some people might well think this example of experimental building craftsmanship as "very good." Let the buyer beware.

23h7pf5.jpg

Take heart. This is NOT a showstopper. Brand new horizontal stab parts are relatively cheap and I'd not hesitate to do it all over. At least you as builder would know enough by now to NOT mimic the example you see here.
 
I guess I would vote that you start over.......

The empennage is just the start of a very long and enjoyable journey. I have always assumed that there are a couple reasons for building this first kit purchase. First, Van's intends to weed out those who just don't really know that building an aircraft is not their 'cup of tea', and second you need to develop and practice your own 'skills' using less expensive pieces and parts!

The workmanship that I am seeing in these pics would certainly explan the reason for a person selling a tail kit at this early stage. Certainly just my opinion but, even if you can't get a refund, order a new emp kit and start the journey on your own terms.
 
Thanks everyone

I assume replacing the front spar would involve essentially taking apart the entire HS. Don't know what I would be left with after drilling out all those rivets...
 
I drilled off the skins for my HS on the -10 after a gust of wind sent cradle and all crashing to the ground. It was very tedious work to drill carefully enough that I could salvage the skeleton. I have no idea if you could be careful enough to salvage the skins, too. Also no idea what you'd find when you got a look at the skeleton, going by what we saw in the picture. That's why I suggested you might want to start over. Depending on what the adviser sees when he visits you, you might be able to drill off the rear spar and salvage it; if the rear spar is also bad I wouldn't bother with trying to save any of the rest.

Regarding N999ZA's pictures, it doesn't look like those rivets are all the way up in the corner of the angle like the ones in Tom's empennage. I think the -7/7A plans I have are for earlier kits; they show pre-punched parts numbers but not for the forward HS spar parts and they do show that the rivet line should be straight. Either way, rivets should not be crowded into the corner like that.
 
flion said:
Also no idea what you'd find when you got a look at the skeleton, going by what we saw in the picture.
Click to expand...

About saving the skeleton ... with those double holes on both sides where the HS-710 disappears inside the HS, how would you put a new HS-710 on the front spar? Those holes are in the front spar, too, so you would also have to change the front spar (i.e. take the skeleton apart) if you want to put a rivet there. Or would you make a doubler? :eek:

A new empennage isn't that expensive, it's a good starting point and not so much work to build. I have to say that my wings are ordered but haven't arrived yet, so I'm not far into the total build, but I really enjoy it. I'd also vote for starting from scratch. After all, you then know what you have.
 
EAA inspector was just here

Once again, thanks all for your inputs and advice.

The EAA inspector was just here and he wasn't sure what to suggest. Said to see that VANs says (I have a call into them). He also agreed that the rest of the work (from what we could see) was excellent. It's a shame, it looks like the builder just royally screwed-up the very first job. I have a date with a borescope to take a look at the insides of the rest of the empennage parts.

I agree that taking this whole thing apart and trying to salvage parts is going to be tough. I think starting a new HS from scratch is the way to go and I just have to chalk all this up to experience... just don't tell my wife!!!...
 
How did it happen...

Looking at a set of -7 plans, if those parts were pre-punched - and yes, the line on the top (as pictured) angle is not straight - but is pre-punched that way.

My theory...

Both angles were attached upside down.

The builder then realised the stab could not be bolted down.

The bottom angle was removed, and a new part made up from locally obtained plain stock - with the holes in the channel part of the spar used as a reference. It was here that the holes got too close to the corner of the angle.

The builder then went and got help riveting - I hope...:)
 
Maybe not so bad???

Gil,

Thanks for your helpful comments. It wouldn't be too hard to pull HS-710 off, make or get a new one and replace the correct way. My biggest worry is the one extra hole in the front spar material alongside HS-404 on the right of my photo (On the left side the extra hole with no rivet is only in 710 and not through the spar - I have better pics is you're interested). Maybe the thing to do is remove 710 and see how things look underneath. Quite honestly, the holes in 714 are a little off, but the photo seemed to exaggerate this some.

These are new photographs. This ones shows the extra rivet in 710 and obviously the forward spar. The resulting hole in the spar is closer to the edge than 2x the whole the diameter.
710extrarivet.jpg


This next photo shows the extra hole in 710. A corresponding hole in the spar was NOT drilled, and therefore no rivet.
710extrahole.jpg


So it looks that if I remove and replace 710 then the only remaining defect will be the extra hole in the spar material shown in the first photo in this post.
 
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az_gila said:
The builder then realised the stab could not be bolted down.

The bottom angle was removed, and a new part made up from locally obtained plain stock - with the holes in the channel part of the spar used as a reference. It was here that the holes got too close to the corner of the angle.
Click to expand...

And I would add that I'm not sure the replaced angle is the proper material. Looks a little like Home Depot stock...
That is some very scary looking work. I would put it on the driveway and back over it with the car. Then take it to the local recycler. Sorry. And shame on whoever took your money for that.
 
Av8torTom said:
So it looks that if I remove and replace 710 then the only remaining defect will be the extra hole in the spar material shown in the first photo in this post.
Click to expand...

And probably the edge distance on your new HS-710 for the hole on the "single hole side" (second picture in your last post). I mean ... there is only one hole in the forward spar and in the flange of HS-405 (yup, that one too), but it looks as if this hole is also too close to the edge of the angle.
 
okay, i'll come out and say it

the build quality on that immediately turned me off, also, there should be holes missing in those pieces for the future attachment to the fuselage, or am I thinking another piece here? I haven't gotten to that phase yet but I seem to recall leaving four holes blank

DSC01690-1024.jpg
 
Absolutely Right

There should be 4, 3/16 diam. holes for assembly with the fuselage. They are riveted.

I looked closely at 710 and 714 and there are stickers on them which say HS-710 and HS-714, so I feel pretty confident that they are not Home Depot stock.
 
Replace

After talking to VANs, the decision was to replace the HS. $695 for everything, so at least I'm still ahead by a couple hundred bucks....

Thanks everyone for your helpful suggestions and support.

Tom
 
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Av8torTom said:
After talking to VANs, the decision was to replace the HZ. $695 for everything, so at least I'm still ahead by a couple hundred bucks....

Thanks everyone for your helpful suggestions and support.

Tom
Click to expand...

Since your doing that...the scrap HS will at least make a great practice piece in the meantime. :)

(Any chance if you break it down for fun, you might post pics of the insides? I'm just really curious what the rest is like...)
 
Av8torTom said:
After talking to VANs, the decision was to replace the HZ. $695 for everything, so at least I'm still ahead by a couple hundred bucks....
Click to expand...
Sorry that it didn't turn out better, but I think you agree that you'll be happier with new bits in there.

You might want to use the HZ for practise drilling out rivets. If nothing else, it'll give you some good experience that you'll need later. And you may find other things that make you even happier about your decision to buy new parts and keep going.

If you haven't bought the new parts yet, you could always try posting a "wanted" ad in the classified section... Just specify that it be an *unused* (or maybe at least unclosed) tail kit... :p
 
An Honorable Man

Update:

The person I bought the empennage from, after seeing this thread, called me up and offered to buy it back from me - without me asking.

He was not the builder (which I knew when I bought it) and was unaware of the construction defect. He's building a 9A and he can use the rudder and VS, so it's a win-win for us both.

It's nice to know the are still people of high honor and integrity in this world!!

Knowing what I know now, I think I will purchase the empennage kit from VANs and start from scratch.

Thanks again everyone...
 
Did I tell you in your Rubicon thread that the empennage is the most exciting and memorable part of the airplane :D? Yours definitely is.
 
Whoever you are sir....

Av8torTom said:
Update:

The person I bought the empennage from, after seeing this thread, called me up and offered to buy it back from me - without me asking.


Thanks again everyone...
Click to expand...

....you have my respect....a gentleman and a scholar!

Kinda revives your faith in the human race!

Best,
 
Av8torTom said:
Update:

The person I bought the empennage from, after seeing this thread, called me up and offered to buy it back from me - without me asking.

He was not the builder (which I knew when I bought it) and was unaware of the construction defect.
Click to expand...

DefectS plural.

I'm with the other poster who wanted to see the inside of it...can the two of you open 'er up and let us see what this looks like on the inside?

Glad you opted to start over...I think that was actually dangerous construction, and failed to meet minimum workmanship in numerous areas.
 
Flying Scotsman said:
DefectS plural.

I'm with the other poster who wanted to see the inside of it...can the two of you open 'er up and let us see what this looks like on the inside?

Glad you opted to start over...I think that was actually dangerous construction, and failed to meet minimum workmanship in numerous areas.
Click to expand...

yeah I beat myself up over a few things on my HS, too timid to drill out a few rivets and fix, i would take a break and read and study and read more about other builders and refuse to continue until fixed

after seeing this, I think i may have been a little more OCD than others :)
 
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