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trashed my ailerons?

IowaRV9Dreamer

IowaRV9Dreamer

Well Known Member
I know lots of people are at OSH, but I thought I'd try for an answer anyway...

I've been building away, working on both ailerons at a time. I did my best job countersinking the spar, which wasn't apparently good enough. I didn't think much of it, so I kept on building. Completed the skeleton, riveted on the nose skin / counterbalance, and tonight I was all set to rivet the skins to the main spar.

This is when I found out the holes are too big. The clecos don't hold, and the rivets don't fill the holes. I did get an Oops rivet to work, but I don't think I want to use all oops rivets since the spars are pretty much the only structure in the aileron.

So what do you experts think? I think I need to buy new ailerons! Of course I found this out at the end when I can't reuse any of the parts. :mad:

I'd love to hear if this has happened to anyone else.

I found on Clay's website (very bottom of this page) that he avoided this problem by countersinking the spar with the rear skins in place. The nose skin was dimpled per plans. Apparently the 0.016 extra metal in the rear skins gives enough room. Seems OK to me... what do you think?

I always mess up countersinking, even in the slow handheld electric drill.

I'm sad, but I get a company paid trip to OSH tomorrow!
 
If oops rivets work I'd use those, you can buy quite a few for less than the cost of two new ailerons. Just a thought.
 
not trash, just a learning experience

I am sure right now it feels pretty bad to you but how will you feel a year or two from now if you don't fix it right. What seems right to you?

Me? I built 3 ailerons and 3 elevators and I may do the rudder over again. That trailing edge wedge can be a bear, but when I built an eight (8) foot back riveting plate to do the flaps it got lots easier. Cheap learning experience. Each and every one I did came out better and I did it much faster.

Oops rivets work. No problems with them and they are cheap.

Oh, by the way you get no sympathy from us folks out here about "having" :) to go to OSH.

Mike Ice
just installed the motor today
RV-9
 
oops rivets ok?

I have lots of oops rivets... I was worried about using them exclusively since I thought they weren't as strong (bigger hole, same head size)...

I'll ask at the factory tent tomorrow! :D
 
Rather than buy them, if it's not too many, why not "make" your oops rivet? I read somewhere an article about pre-squeazing a rivet to start the swelling action. Then you insert it into the skins/structure, and finish squeazing. Good luck!
 
The NAS 1241AD3 rivets that CaptainRon suggests look pretty good to me. I wouldn't use "OOPS" rivets exclusively. They were designed to be used occasionally, not continuously. Personally, I would use these NAS rivets or go to standard 426-AD4 rivets.
 
Going against the grain here. DO NOT USE OOPS RIVETS. Somewhere in the manual Vans states then maximum number of oops rivets that can be used, it?s a pretty low number too. Generally, I would limit the number of oops rivets to less than 5% in a run. I would call Vans for the replacement cost of the spar. I replaced left side of the rear spar and the cost was cheap (around $30 IIR). Inexpensive piece of mind in my book. Hope this helps.
 
Mel said:
The NAS 1241AD3 rivets that CaptainRon suggests look pretty good to me. I wouldn't use "OOPS" rivets exclusively. They were designed to be used occasionally, not continuously. Personally, I would use these NAS rivets or go to standard 426-AD4 rivets.
Click to expand...

I would agree. You don't want your control surfaces to tear apart. Well you probably don't want any part of the plane to tear apart!
 
I had a similar problem on one of my flaps. The factory suggested I make a doubler strip out of .020 and place it under the flange of the spar. I then riveted through the skin, the spar and the doubler and everything came out fine.
 
I did the same thing, and after getting lots of opinions I still found myself losing sleep over it. Silly, probably.

Regardless, I made another set of ailerons. It was not too expensive to reorder the necessary parts.

Another local 9A builder made the same mistake -- he used a sawzall to cut out the counterweights to reuse them. I didn't bother, now I have some nice decoration for the hangar.

I suggested that Van's fix the directions in this area, but they declined to do so.
 
regular & "oops" head diameters

Actually, the head diameter of a 1097AD4 "oops" rivet is not the same size as a 3/32" rivet.

The "oops" is .183" with a .125 shaft diameter.

The 3/32" is .163 with a .094 shaft diameter

According to my calculations,

edit: must recalculate as I didn't "square" before the 3.14 :D

edit again, the head area of the "oops" comes out ahead. However, since the next reply list's a head diameter of .171 for a 3/32 rivet, I'm going through a pile and have seen .163 to .169 ....so far.

I've also read that these 1097AD4 (so called oops rivets) were used to attach fuselage skins to the MD80 (or could have been the DC-9 or perhaps both). Unfortuantely, I can't find the exact info at the moment


So----- what's the real scoop, strength wise and everything else? :confused:

L.Adamson
 
Last edited:
NAS 1241AD3 rivets

The standard rivet head I measured was .171", the "oops" rivet was .183", and the NAS 1241AD3 measures .177". The longest size that GAH had at the time I ordered them was -4's. I was hoping for -5's or -6's and to just shorten them as necessary.
 
Problem with Directions?

Paul Eastham said:
I did the same thing, and after getting lots of opinions I still found myself losing sleep over it. Silly, probably.

Regardless, I made another set of ailerons. It was not too expensive to reorder the necessary parts.

Another local 9A builder made the same mistake -- he used a sawzall to cut out the counterweights to reuse them. I didn't bother, now I have some nice decoration for the hangar.

I suggested that Van's fix the directions in this area, but they declined to do so.
Click to expand...

Pual,

What's the problem in the plans? What's causing the confusion? I'm just about to start the ailerons and flaps, and would like to avoid this mistake?
 
thanks guys, and a small OSH report

Guys - thanks for the suggestions. I'm not sure the problem is with the directions, but more with my technique. The directions say to countersink the aileron spar, and "I" found it very hard to do without widening out the holes too much. This is because the spar is only 0.040. I'm sure others could do a better job.

I am guessing that countersinking the spar with the rear skin on (0.016) will provide a better solution - but I haven't tried it yet.

I am at OSH today - it is incredible and I highly recommend it to all. I've never seen so many RVs. I talked to Ken about my ailerons and he suggested 1) rivet it anyway if possible 2) make a doubler strip 3) replace only the spars. We talked about oops rivets and they don't recommend that they be used in quantity.

When I get back I will try some of these ideas. Worst case = new ailerons, not a big deal.

BTW and OT - the new Cessna Skycatcher is awesome! I'm not a big LSA fan but that is one great aircraft. I really like the whole thing, it is a very nice package. Maybe it is the whole "new airplane" thing, or the sticks, or the cool little Garmin G300 panels, but it looks like a lot of fun to fly.

Have fun (I'll be back at OSH in the AM - can't wait!)
 
With all the other things to worry about . . .

Build the ailerons that make you happy. I scrapped one, and while I hated the idea of taking a step back, it did wonders for my confidence. I'm not a perfectionist, but recognized a part I really didn't want to call my own. It hangs on the wall a reminder to practice and not rush.

Rick 90432 SB wings, QB fuse on the way!
 
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