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rv12newbie

I'm New Here
Just ordered the FASTENERS and EMPENNAGE/TAIL CONE kits. While I have a standard equipped home shop, this is my first attempt at ever building a plane; something I never thought I would ever do until a couple months back. Should I buy the AC SPRUCE $2,100+ RV-12 TOOL KIT, which seems to contain lots of what I do not own? Thanks in advance for any advice - and this is probably the first of a host of "dumb" questions I will have in the coming days/weeks/months/year(s)
 
My $0.02.

Most of the well-known aircraft supply stores have tool packages, and you'll probably be fine with any one of them. However, I would look more for packages that contain individual tools that you (or your builder friends) might prefer, such as a pneumatic squeezer/puller, DRDT2 dimpler, brand name drill motor, etc. Then let those be your guide (i.e. if the package includes these or not). You will most certainly add on to your package with other aircraft-specific tools. Personally, I would use the intial purchase opportunity to buy more clecos. I have never met a builder who didn't end up buying more clecos. Congrats on your decision to build!
 
You don't need to go hog wild on tools for the rv12.

The tools I use most are good deburring tools (hand and my trusty old delta grinder), the magnificent cleaveland main squeeze with all the needed dimple and rivet dies....a smaller cheaper "nutplate" squeezer....the bigger harbor freight Pneumatic puller (39 with the coupon....lasts for 20k rivets...!), a decent compressor with an air drill, although some find it easier to buy the whole kit, the rv12 is a different animal....there is some nice to have stuff, I suppose you could go bare bones as well. I looked at all three kits and found building my own was a better way to go....everyone got a little bit of my money, with eBay and HF filling in the blanks.

The plans will have a good selection of tools you will need. You do not need nor would I recommend you invest in the drdt or a pneumatic squeezer.
 
I have an introduction to tools at:

https://sites.google.com/site/jalcomputing/home/rv12-lsa-build/setting-up-the-shop

While you are waiting for the tools you can start to build a pair of EAA tables and watch a few videos such as "Aircraft Sheet Metal Tools" available from VANS.

Welcome to the world of aircraft construction.

Jeff

Oh. Here is a great kit to practice on. I have used this kit to teach High School students interested in aircraft construction. It is also the kit that I learned on at Synergy Air. The only weird tool needed to complete this project is a nail driven dimpler.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin...-478-267&browse=misc&product=training-project
 
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Read the vans list of tools for building the rv12 in the plans. You can download that part of the plans, you do not have to wait. Hold off on a pneumatic squeezer. Compare that list to the offerings. I went with Cleaveland and was very happy. Even if you do not get their "set" you will want their "Main Squeeze" squeezer rather than the ones from the other suppliers - some searching on the forum will confirm that. great tool.

The set I got from Cleaveland was nowhere near $2100!!! IMO That is to much to spend on tools to build an RV-12. I waited a bit before I got the electrical stripper and crimpers but those were not too expensive either. Your most important tool is a grinder with scotchbright wheel. Also a small bench top metal cutting bandsaw. SEARTH THIS FORUM for more advice.
 
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Welcome Aboard

Good to have another member in the 'Force. Some superb advice here already. Several vendors, including those who advertise on this site, offer very good tool kits, and for an RV-12, don't run to 2 grand. I chose the RV-12 kit from Cleaveland and am very satisfied with it.

As others have already said, their "Main Squeeze" is much easier to use. Nearly all of the solid rivets used in the RV-12 are size 4 (1/8"). They are physically difficult to set with a standard hand squeezer, especially if you have to do a whole group at a time. Not so with the Main Squeeze. Hit the icon link to their site and search it. IMHO, their dimple dies are also a must have.

I also recommend the practice kit from Van's, but realize that most of the RV-12 construction is quite different due to the predominance of pulled rivets rather than solid driven rivets. Still, you will gain a lot of good experience with the practice kit.

An air drill is nice, but I find myself using a mid-price Craftsman 12v battery drill almost exclusively, for about half what my air drill cost. It has so far been adequate to every task.

My tool kit came with 350 #30 clecos. I have yet to come up short, but hey, how could more be a bad thing?

Since so many of the rivets are not the flush type, a DRDT frame seems a bit extravagant for the relatively few places that must be dimpled. Van's has engineered the -12 kit so that every flush rivet location is reachable with a hand squeezer equipped with the standard 3" yoke. I picked up a used C-frame dimpler, and so far have used it only once. Try to avoid buying tools you don't really need, and then add to your set only as you need to. The pneumatic squeezer and a DRDT dimpler frame together would set you back easily more than a grand. They are wonderful tools that are just about essential for any other RV, but I feel are kind of over the top for the -12.

Spend your money on a good buffer motor, preferably on a pedestal stand. Note that I did not say grinder motor. You need one designed for a buffer, which has the extended spindles and turns at 3300-3400 rpm. Put a light duty 6" Scotchbrite wheel on one side and a medium duty one on the other. You will use this rig A LOT. Also get the same wheels in 1" and 2" diameters. These are for use in a drill press (if you have one) and/or a hand drill.

One item that's not in any tool kit I've seen, but is arguably necessary, is a pneumatic cleco tool. Operating cleco pliers hundreds of times a day is about as certain a way to develop tennis elbow you can find, short of playing tennis all the time. I speak from experience...it hurts. Last time I saw, Avery Tools had cleco guns for a pretty good price, around 90 bucks.

Most important of all, if you haven't joined a local EAA chapter, do that first. Hook up with every builder you can. There are other people in Cincinnati who have built or are building RVs. They have knowledge they'd love to share.

Last word: Most of us have found that this isn't a hobby, nor even a journey. To call it either would be a massive understatement.

Glad you could make it.
 
I teach kids to build RV-12s. The Main Squeeze is a nice product and all you will even need. A pneumatic puller is good and everyone sells them. Don't go overboard here. Avery and Cleaveland seem to be the most popular suppliers, and either can get you what you need, and both offer great service after the sale.

Bob

P.S. Since you are only about 50 miles East of us, stop by and watch the kids building one if you like, or ride in one they built last year. We are at OVO (North Vernon, IN)
 
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If you don't have any sheet metal experience (I didn't) I would recommend taking the EAA RV building workshop and then decide what you need.
 
There's always one more thing

...or two.

Right after I hit the submit button I thought about drill bits. Best advice I ever got was buy good ones. The drill bits that come with any of the better kits will be American made cobalt bits. Don't settle for anything less when it comes time to buy replacements. Even with cobalt, if it doesn't say US made, it ain't. And they are not the same by a long shot.

Second what RSchaller said above. There aren't any workshops scheduled near you in the immediate future, but maybe you're free to travel a wee bit. Suggest you go to www.sportair.com and take a look at the schedule.
 
You will also want the Cleaveland edge forming tool - a vise grip with rollers. Way better than the hockey puck type. You will use it on many edges of large pieces like the wings and Emp. Get the cleaveland deburr bit and use it in a power screwdriver (not drill). You will have many long edges to deburr. Use a 1.5 or 2 inch scotchbright wheel in a drill and your other hand in a leather glove. All of this is written in more detail in other posts. ALSO!!! Read Marty Santics Blog and the Schmetterling Aviation Blog ( you can even download PDFs of that blog covering the entire build in sequence and it is massively entertaining!) Reading those blogs I knew I could build the -12 and they were highly valuable as I had never worked in metal either.
 
Agree

With John - the Cleveland kit is really nice - no low quality tools in there. No matter where you buy your tools, you will likely want more (clecos) & what have you. Best of skill on your build. :cool:
 
It's also not a bad idea to get an extra countersink cage or two and set them up with #30 and #40 cutters. Saves a lot of fiddling and adjusting every time you want to countersink something. While you're at it, order a few extra cobalt #30 and #40 drill bits as well, and get a Q-bit in preference to an 11/32" bit if you have a choice. It's a better fit for some holes you need to drill.
 
Following up on XOverZero's suggestion of a buffer, Harbor Freight has a nice long shaft buffer at a very reasonable price. They also sell a floor stand to mount it on. These have worked well for me with minimum $ outlay.
 
I went with the Cleaveland kit as well and am also very satisfied. I did upgrade to the pneumatic squeezer since the Main Squeeze was unavailable at the time. I could of traded it back for full credit later when the Main Squeeze became available but by that time there was no way I'd let go of it. :) I already had an air driven die grinder that I use for the 1" and 2" wheels. That's definitely worth having. Someone mentioned the Harbor Freight buffer on a stand for the 6" wheel. I have one and really like it.

Jim

Good to have another member in the 'Force. Some superb advice here already. Several vendors, including those who advertise on this site, offer very good tool kits, and for an RV-12, don't run to 2 grand. I chose the RV-12 kit from Cleaveland and am very satisfied with it.

As others have already said, their "Main Squeeze" is much easier to use. Nearly all of the solid rivets used in the RV-12 are size 4 (1/8"). They are physically difficult to set with a standard hand squeezer, especially if you have to do a whole group at a time. Not so with the Main Squeeze. Hit the icon link to their site and search it. IMHO, their dimple dies are also a must have.

I also recommend the practice kit from Van's, but realize that most of the RV-12 construction is quite different due to the predominance of pulled rivets rather than solid driven rivets. Still, you will gain a lot of good experience with the practice kit.

An air drill is nice, but I find myself using a mid-price Craftsman 12v battery drill almost exclusively, for about half what my air drill cost. It has so far been adequate to every task.

My tool kit came with 350 #30 clecos. I have yet to come up short, but hey, how could more be a bad thing?

Since so many of the rivets are not the flush type, a DRDT frame seems a bit extravagant for the relatively few places that must be dimpled. Van's has engineered the -12 kit so that every flush rivet location is reachable with a hand squeezer equipped with the standard 3" yoke. I picked up a used C-frame dimpler, and so far have used it only once. Try to avoid buying tools you don't really need, and then add to your set only as you need to. The pneumatic squeezer and a DRDT dimpler frame together would set you back easily more than a grand. They are wonderful tools that are just about essential for any other RV, but I feel are kind of over the top for the -12.

Spend your money on a good buffer motor, preferably on a pedestal stand. Note that I did not say grinder motor. You need one designed for a buffer, which has the extended spindles and turns at 3300-3400 rpm. Put a light duty 6" Scotchbrite wheel on one side and a medium duty one on the other. You will use this rig A LOT. Also get the same wheels in 1" and 2" diameters. These are for use in a drill press (if you have one) and/or a hand drill.

One item that's not in any tool kit I've seen, but is arguably necessary, is a pneumatic cleco tool. Operating cleco pliers hundreds of times a day is about as certain a way to develop tennis elbow you can find, short of playing tennis all the time. I speak from experience...it hurts. Last time I saw, Avery Tools had cleco guns for a pretty good price, around 90 bucks.

Most important of all, if you haven't joined a local EAA chapter, do that first. Hook up with every builder you can. There are other people in Cincinnati who have built or are building RVs. They have knowledge they'd love to share.

Last word: Most of us have found that this isn't a hobby, nor even a journey. To call it either would be a massive understatement.

Glad you could make it.
 
I went with the Cleveland's RV-12 tool set....and have been very satisfied. The only additions that were not included was a #6 screw dimple set (which you will need); and a good quality air drill with additional #30 drill bits.

I've also picked up a table jig saw and a small belt/disk sander. The quality main squeeze from Cleveland is a must have (in my book)..that and a vise you can clamp it in for one handed squeezing/dimpling worked for me so far. I'm still learning and have decided to build a second -12 when I've completed my first one.

This is truly becoming an addiction! Sure wish I had found these years ago. For you "down under" guys....this build would make it across the pond and be capable of snagging some rooussss.
 
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First one came out that bad, huh? :D

Absolutely "not bad"....a few cosmetic boopers that a good paint job will hide (nothing structural). Just love the building process. And next one would be perfect! Maybe!

Overall Van's directions are good....but after completing the kits done so far; I'd do some the steps differently i.e. landing light and nav lights...etc.
 
Absolutely "not bad"....a few cosmetic boopers that a good paint job will hide (nothing structural). Just love the building process. And next one would be perfect! Maybe!

Overall Van's directions are good....but after completing the kits done so far; I'd do some the steps differently i.e. landing light and nav lights...etc.

Yep, sounds just like mine. Even been thinking along the same lines about maybe building again. :)
 
Avery Tools ... Bob Avery

I finally got to visit Avery Tools today and got a personal tour by Bob Avery.
Very knowledgeable, helpful, and encouraging. You can tell he likes quality and things done right.
I know you can order from lots of suppliers, but the Avery family love what they do and enjoy sharing their knowledge.
So, if you want and need personal service and a little hand holding, I think they would be the place to buy all your tools.
Just my 2 cents.
 
I finally got to visit Avery Tools today and got a personal tour by Bob Avery.
Very knowledgeable, helpful, and encouraging. You can tell he likes quality and things done right.
I know you can order from lots of suppliers, but the Avery family love what they do and enjoy sharing their knowledge.
So, if you want and need personal service and a little hand holding, I think they would be the place to buy all your tools.
Just my 2 cents.

Yep. And when I had problems getting a tool to work, he answered the phone and explained how to use the tool properly.
 
has anyone used tools from ''the yard''? right down the line they are cheaper on everything. apples for apples dimple sets 1/2 the price of other vendors?
bob noffs
 
I bought a cheap set of dimple dies. Can not remember from where, but might have been from the Yard. They worked just fine. A year or so after completing my RV-12, I noticed that the dies were rusting. I coated them with oil. They do not look pretty, but are still functional.
Joe Gores
 
Yep. And when I had problems getting a tool to work, he answered the phone and explained how to use the tool properly.

Another Bob Avery fan here. I was an early builder and I called Bob a few times to suggest there was something that probably should be included in the RV-12 toolkit. He usually agreed, sent me the item for free, and then added it to the standard kit. He's the type of guy I like to support with my business.
 
Overall Van's directions are good....but after completing the kits done so far; I'd do some the steps differently i.e. landing light and nav lights...etc.

For someone that's getting ready to start the wing by the weekend, what would you do differently on the lights?

Thanks!!!! :D

Bob
 
For someone that's getting ready to start the wing by the weekend, what would you do differently on the lights?

Thanks!!!! :D

Bob

I would have pre-plumbed for an AOA, but that is no big deal....there is a webboard "subkit" for that...personal preference I think, but it would have been nice to have the option.

Also, i think using the hole saw for the ldg light opening is a little aggressive...i followed the template and the video and written instructions exactly but found that there is not much metal to work with once you need to start filing....i would go with a smaller hole saw initially and then snips and file to get the "perfect" opening.
 
Another Bob Avery fan here. I was an early builder and I called Bob a few times to suggest there was something that probably should be included in the RV-12 toolkit. He usually agreed, sent me the item for free, and then added it to the standard kit. He's the type of guy I like to support with my business.

Avery and Cleaveland both are top notch operations.

As a side note I have used every thing in this kit, except I have the HF puller and the Cleaveland main squeeze, and I think i ended up getting a better crimper from Stein (another homebuilder savior):

prodinfo.asp
 
The Yard

has anyone used tools from ''the yard''? right down the line they are cheaper on everything. apples for apples dimple sets 1/2 the price of other vendors?
bob noffs

The Yard is fine for certain items, not so much for others. Their dies are not comparable to Avery or Cleveland. I would not recommend purchasing them. At one time I had all 3 sets in my shop and was able to do some side by side testing. I sent all The Yard dies back.

The Yard is fine for long drill bits that don't get used much, their clecos are good (and american made), etc..

One of the best kept secrets at The Yard Store are their reconditioned CP rivet guns. I would rather have a reconditioned CP gun than any of the knock off guns. The CP trigger has a feather touch.
 
Also, i think using the hole saw for the ldg light opening is a little aggressive...i followed the template and the video and written instructions exactly but found that there is not much metal to work with once you need to start filing....i would go with a smaller hole saw initially and then snips and file to get the "perfect" opening.

I used nothing but a Dremel. Use the stronger metal cutting blades on medium speed and a routing bit on slow speed in the corners. Takes about 15 minutes and it's easy to make them perfect if you go slow and have patience.

+1 on Stein, Cleaveland, and Avery. All good people. I too like to support the vendors who support my hobby.
 
I bought my tools when I started the RV-9. Living in the Dallas area going with Bob Avery was a no brainer. I loved the support and the quality of tools. That was 11+ years ago. I'm still using the tools.

I've added a few so far to the RV-12 kit and there are some I didn't pick up with the 9 that I should have and will do for the 12.

I wouldn't part with the pneumatic squeezer (even on the 12) and my wife said I'd get rid of it over my dead body. She likes it too. It's now my second favorite tool (used to be first). In first place is a quality, pneumatic rivet puller (from Avery). I used the cheaper Harbor Freight one on another project and won't go back. There is a difference in good tools.

As others have mentioned - good drill bits (more 30's). It seems like most things so far need the 30 drill bit (if any) and an occasional 40. I ordered the countersink set (from the 12 kit) and the counter stop set from the 12 kit. Mostly for countersinking I just use the deburring tool. All CS4-4 require a 120 degree countersink though instead of the normal 100 degree like the deburring tool.

Considering I just had 3 kits delivered, its time to wrap this up and start unpacking and inventory~!

Bob
 
For someone that's getting ready to start the wing by the weekend, what would you do differently on the lights?

Thanks!!!! :D

Bob

1. The brackets that hold the landing light.....shave off alittle of the front area, as I see a slight rise in the finished wing skin.

2. Using tape to pull the plexiglass tight against the inner wing skin didn't produce as tight of seal as I'd liked. If I do it again, I'd use a 2x4 with padding to apply pressure to the back side of the plexiglass to hold it firmly for drilling/placement of nutplates (the holding with tape resulted in a small gap that alittle silicone sealer took care of).

3. The problem I had with my nav lites were self induced....just follow Van's instructions carefully!!! I installed them alittle forward of the correct location which resulted in the front curviture being alittle much for the fiberglass assemblies necessitating some fiberglass rework (nothing terribly difficult....just more work on my part).
 
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