Am I missing something? I can't seem to locate a dimension that tells where to located the base of the cabin frame on the longerons. I can see where the F632 length and angle determine (roughly) the position for the top of the canopy but the base of the canopy frame (I would think) has to be in a specific location.
Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
Tip-Up Canopy Frame Position
- Thread starter MNellis
- Start date
az_gila
Well Known Member
It's on page 9-1 of my typewritten instruction book, not on the drawings.
A little different from Paul's later RV-7. I think RV-7 dimensions changed in this area from the -6.
"...shimming it up 1/8 to 3/16 above the fuselage longerons..."
That extra 1/16 may make things line up better and allows a little more tweaking of the canopy sides....
A little different from Paul's later RV-7. I think RV-7 dimensions changed in this area from the -6.
"...shimming it up 1/8 to 3/16 above the fuselage longerons..."
That extra 1/16 may make things line up better and allows a little more tweaking of the canopy sides....
I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear with my question. I'm looking for a dimension on where to physically locate the base of the roll bar (fore/aft) on the longeron.
In this picture the base of the Roll bar is just positioned on the longeron but I don't know if it's too far forward or too far aft. The picture shows the base of the roll bar just sitting on the mount brackets. The plans call for 17 7/8ths as the height of the roll bar (once the bottom is trimmed to the correct angle). Currently, sitting on the brackets it's about 18 1/2 so I think the overall height will work out once it's trimmed.
This second pictures shows my struggle with positioning the bottom of the frame (fore/aft) to get the top mount to line up. Possibly, when I get the bottom trimmed it will help.
And this picture shows how the bottom of the frame still need to be trimmed to fit over the mounting brackets.
Sheeze, a million of these things have been built, you'd think I wouldn't have these sorts of basic questions after so many years.
Thanks
In this picture the base of the Roll bar is just positioned on the longeron but I don't know if it's too far forward or too far aft. The picture shows the base of the roll bar just sitting on the mount brackets. The plans call for 17 7/8ths as the height of the roll bar (once the bottom is trimmed to the correct angle). Currently, sitting on the brackets it's about 18 1/2 so I think the overall height will work out once it's trimmed.
This second pictures shows my struggle with positioning the bottom of the frame (fore/aft) to get the top mount to line up. Possibly, when I get the bottom trimmed it will help.
And this picture shows how the bottom of the frame still need to be trimmed to fit over the mounting brackets.
Sheeze, a million of these things have been built, you'd think I wouldn't have these sorts of basic questions after so many years.
Thanks
Last edited:
Thanks Gil, that's what I've found so far. There is a profile view view that shows the position just above a vertical brace on the side of the cabin so I'll just go with that. It appears the 2 7/8" off vertical (10 deg?) at the top of the roll bar is an important one to hold too.
I'll post a picture of the final result for posterity in a few days.
Roll bar
IIRC having all the measurements right made all the difference for me.
I couldn't keep everything in place so I made a plywood jig that was really square and perpendicular to the longerons.
I put 3/4" oak spacers in place so I had some room to work and took my measurements, i.e. 2 7/8" from the top one.
These pics may help:
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar1.jpg
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar2.jpg
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar3.jpg
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar4.jpg
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar5.jpg
One is sideways, you'll have to rotate it. One shows how I accomplished the SB at the aft end of the brace.
I think Gil is right about the forward location of the base. I think thats what the pictures show. Having the base of the rollbar elevated was important too for me.
Dave A.
6A build
IIRC having all the measurements right made all the difference for me.
I couldn't keep everything in place so I made a plywood jig that was really square and perpendicular to the longerons.
I put 3/4" oak spacers in place so I had some room to work and took my measurements, i.e. 2 7/8" from the top one.
These pics may help:
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar1.jpg
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar2.jpg
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar3.jpg
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar4.jpg
http://pages.suddenlink.net/tismuoi9/rollbar5.jpg
One is sideways, you'll have to rotate it. One shows how I accomplished the SB at the aft end of the brace.
I think Gil is right about the forward location of the base. I think thats what the pictures show. Having the base of the rollbar elevated was important too for me.
Dave A.
6A build
az_gila
Well Known Member
The base of my roll bar is also elevated a bit above the longerons - about 1/8 inch or so at the forward edge.
Very Confusing feature ...
This aft end of the rollbar brace is possibly #1 on my list of poorly documented construction features in the RV-6 Tip-Up. I finally sent a query to Vans Tech Support and the answer "Yes, it's supposed to be THROUGH all the layers" was not what I expected, or at least, had hoped not to hear.
Some steps are easier to re-do than others. This was not impossible but difficult to do it the 'factory way'. A later review of the RV-9A Preview Plans (my original desire), showed an extraordinarily concise and clear representation of a properly fabricated brace attachment. It appears that the last of the above pictures goes this justice. It includes two rows of rivets on the aft end, one to secure the angle bracket, and another to secure the whole 'enchilada' together.
This aft end of the rollbar brace is possibly #1 on my list of poorly documented construction features in the RV-6 Tip-Up. I finally sent a query to Vans Tech Support and the answer "Yes, it's supposed to be THROUGH all the layers" was not what I expected, or at least, had hoped not to hear.
Some steps are easier to re-do than others. This was not impossible but difficult to do it the 'factory way'. A later review of the RV-9A Preview Plans (my original desire), showed an extraordinarily concise and clear representation of a properly fabricated brace attachment. It appears that the last of the above pictures goes this justice. It includes two rows of rivets on the aft end, one to secure the angle bracket, and another to secure the whole 'enchilada' together.
51%
Gary,
Every time I get stumped some veteran builder friends pour salt in the wound with the jab, "Thats the 51% Vans wants you to build."
The bracket configuration was something I hacked out after looking at a -7 picture. Definitely not an official way. The second layer of metal has relief holes in it so the shop heads on the flush rivets don't interfere. Setting 3-upteen rivets through all those layers would have been very hard to do.
It also means, in my case, I had to hold off riveting the aft part of the brace until late in the game and when the top skin had already been riveted on.
Vans 6 plans are both very good and they suck. They suck because they sometimes are extremely vague with little tidbits of vital information hidden in the corners of another sheet or a sketch somewhere, if at all. They are also excellent because they are true drawings, not exploded views like in the later planes, and if you need a part, you can make it. I know this for a fact.
Dave A.
6A build
Gary,
Every time I get stumped some veteran builder friends pour salt in the wound with the jab, "Thats the 51% Vans wants you to build."
The bracket configuration was something I hacked out after looking at a -7 picture. Definitely not an official way. The second layer of metal has relief holes in it so the shop heads on the flush rivets don't interfere. Setting 3-upteen rivets through all those layers would have been very hard to do.
It also means, in my case, I had to hold off riveting the aft part of the brace until late in the game and when the top skin had already been riveted on.
Vans 6 plans are both very good and they suck. They suck because they sometimes are extremely vague with little tidbits of vital information hidden in the corners of another sheet or a sketch somewhere, if at all. They are also excellent because they are true drawings, not exploded views like in the later planes, and if you need a part, you can make it. I know this for a fact.
Dave A.
6A build
I'm getting close to have this roll bar complete and I'll post some pictures later tonight after I clean up the parts a little.
I rebuilt the aft portion of the F632 when I stopped working on the project a few years ago. At that time I followed the -7 plans and it really is a lot easier to mfg.
My next question will probably be "what technique did you use to drill the canopy brace brackets (F631 b & c) to the canopy brace and to the fuselage so that everything fit properly. Also, which parts did you drill first?"
I rebuilt the aft portion of the F632 when I stopped working on the project a few years ago. At that time I followed the -7 plans and it really is a lot easier to mfg.
My next question will probably be "what technique did you use to drill the canopy brace brackets (F631 b & c) to the canopy brace and to the fuselage so that everything fit properly. Also, which parts did you drill first?"
Amen to making a part....
I'm just a little behind Gary in my build and I just noticed my quickbuild fuselage had the F657 roll bar gussets riveted onto the F605 backwards. That was a simple drill out of 20 rivets and fabbing two correct ones. Actually Ken at Vans said I was several years late in taking exception to my quickbuild but he would send me two more at no charge because someone overseas put them on backwards. I am sucking up this info on the roll bar because that's next, sort of.
I'm just a little behind Gary in my build and I just noticed my quickbuild fuselage had the F657 roll bar gussets riveted onto the F605 backwards. That was a simple drill out of 20 rivets and fabbing two correct ones. Actually Ken at Vans said I was several years late in taking exception to my quickbuild but he would send me two more at no charge because someone overseas put them on backwards. I am sucking up this info on the roll bar because that's next, sort of.
Used the skin for reference
I used the forward edge of the 'ears' of the forward top skin as a reference. I believe I saw this on another builder's site. I clamped a large piece of angle that I had in the shop across both longerons. It was angled backwards to maintain full contact with these edges and shimmed between its front edge and the longeron so that it could be clamped in that position.
The roll bar was mounted with its forward face in contact with the aft face of the angle. Coincidentally, this put the forward face of the roll bar in direct line with the forward top edge of the 705 seat back brace, where the plans show it should be.
Bear in mind that I am building an RV9, but I believe this area is consistent across all side-by-side models. Also, this aircraft is far from finished so my method is not proven.
I used the forward edge of the 'ears' of the forward top skin as a reference. I believe I saw this on another builder's site. I clamped a large piece of angle that I had in the shop across both longerons. It was angled backwards to maintain full contact with these edges and shimmed between its front edge and the longeron so that it could be clamped in that position.
The roll bar was mounted with its forward face in contact with the aft face of the angle. Coincidentally, this put the forward face of the roll bar in direct line with the forward top edge of the 705 seat back brace, where the plans show it should be.
Bear in mind that I am building an RV9, but I believe this area is consistent across all side-by-side models. Also, this aircraft is far from finished so my method is not proven.
Thanks, that's a good technique that I'll try.
I finally got the canopy frame drilled and bolted (temporarily) in and I must say that was quite an effort to get it drilled accurately. I haven't seen much discussion here (or at Matronics) regarding this installation. Did the -7 (and -9 for that matter) come with pre-drilled brackets? The -6 instructions just say "drill during assembly". I came up with m own method of locating where the holes should be drilled to give good edge distance clearance but I can see how it could easily have gone wrong. The manual was virtually no help here.
I'm not complaining, just wondering how others have done this job in the past.
I'm not complaining, just wondering how others have done this job in the past.
Last edited:
az_gila
Well Known Member
One advantage of not having it pre-drilled. I started off with 3/32 holes , clecoed and clamped it all in place and drilled the assy to 1/8. I then took it apart and drilled to #13 and reamed to #12. The holes are a nice fit on the bolts.
I finally got the canopy frame drilled and bolted (temporarily) in and I must say that was quite an effort to get it drilled accurately. I haven't seen much discussion here (or at Matronics) regarding this installation. Did the -7 (and -9 for that matter) come with pre-drilled brackets? The -6 instructions just say "drill during assembly". I came up with m own method of locating where the holes should be drilled to give good edge distance clearance but I can see how it could easily have gone wrong. The manual was virtually no help here.
I'm not complaining, just wondering how others have done this job in the past.
Looks like you installed those two bolts wrong..........
For the RV6, look at dwg 39. The bolts through F631C and F631D are in line with F605F...............................
That photo doesn't look right
I hope I am wrong about this but that photo shows the bolts fore and aft of each other. Detail A on drawing 40 of the 7/9 plans show the keeper rivets in those positions with the bolts alongside each other span-wise. That would explain why you were having difficulty with the edge distance.
I don't know which model you are building. Maybe the RV-6 is different but the part numbers (F-631C&D) suggest the design originated with the 6.
As long as you are sure you have enough edge distance, you could consider leaving things as they are. However, I don't think that arrangement would have the same strength as the original design under side loads in a severe shunt.
Personally, I think I would investigate making new angles and putting the bolts in the correct positions. Just make sure you have enough edge distance between the proper holes and the existing 'abandoned' holes through the F-705F cross brace. In the 7 and 9 there are F-705G angles underneath that cross brace and it would be a good idea to replace those also.
Make sure to check the above with Vans before acting on it, cos I'm just a dumb first-time builder.
Anyway, nil desperandum
I hope I am wrong about this but that photo shows the bolts fore and aft of each other. Detail A on drawing 40 of the 7/9 plans show the keeper rivets in those positions with the bolts alongside each other span-wise. That would explain why you were having difficulty with the edge distance.
I don't know which model you are building. Maybe the RV-6 is different but the part numbers (F-631C&D) suggest the design originated with the 6.
As long as you are sure you have enough edge distance, you could consider leaving things as they are. However, I don't think that arrangement would have the same strength as the original design under side loads in a severe shunt.
Personally, I think I would investigate making new angles and putting the bolts in the correct positions. Just make sure you have enough edge distance between the proper holes and the existing 'abandoned' holes through the F-705F cross brace. In the 7 and 9 there are F-705G angles underneath that cross brace and it would be a good idea to replace those also.
Make sure to check the above with Vans before acting on it, cos I'm just a dumb first-time builder.
Anyway, nil desperandum
I'm such a Bozo sometimes, it's not like I hadn't looked at drawing #39 a dozen times or more. I don't know what I was thinking.
I just got off the phone with Scott at Vans and said he didn't think it would be a problem the way I have it. At least he didn't call me a "Moron" like I called myself after reading the replies pointing out the obvious mistake.
I'm glad I asked the question and posted the picture.
It also explains why I had some much trouble getting the drill in there. I did it basically the same way that Gil mentioned with the roll bar clamped in place. It would have been a lot easier drilling those holes side by side instead of fore/aft.
I just got off the phone with Scott at Vans and said he didn't think it would be a problem the way I have it. At least he didn't call me a "Moron" like I called myself after reading the replies pointing out the obvious mistake.
I'm glad I asked the question and posted the picture.
It also explains why I had some much trouble getting the drill in there. I did it basically the same way that Gil mentioned with the roll bar clamped in place. It would have been a lot easier drilling those holes side by side instead of fore/aft.
