What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Tip to VANs: How to save money on paper bags

WingedFrog

WingedFrog

Well Known Member
This is a follow-up on the (Mis)Identifying nutplates thread that goes beyond just nutplates.
I initially blamed myself rather than VANs on this mistake (see my blog) but after going through the thread's answers, I came to the conclusion that, at least for novice builders like me, there is no easy foolproof way to identify nutplates. My problem stemmed from the fact that VANs put in paper bag 2717-2 nutplates K1000-3, -4 & -06. The -4 is easy to identify because of the rivet holes spacing but -3 and -06 have the same spacing. What I suggest to VANs is: if you want to save money on paper bags, just mix items that cannot be misidentified like bolts with washers and nutplates, just one kind of each.
This may look like a joke but the logic is hard to beat:
What VANs has got with the RV-12 is a winner: easy to build, easy to fly.
This does not quite match the profile of previous RVs builders. The RV-12 targets a population that is less experienced in building and more interested in flying. If VANs wants to make these customers real happy, it has to ease the building process by trying to minimize their building mistakes, particularly the painful ones (ie, nutplates confusion). VANs' habit of putting different parts in one paper bag seems ludicrous in view of the cost of a kit vs cost of a paper bag but they may have their reasons that I am not in a position to challenge. Hence my suggestion...:D
 
Over the past several weeks, there have been numerous posts regarding the confusion (especially, nut plates) and installation errors which first time builders have experienced. They have been vocal about it and shared their frustrations. I am a bit surprised that Van's has not been more pro active in correcting the problem directly, by making minor adjustments to the packaging process, it seems it would make identification less confusing and improve the quality of the kit product. The passive, default solution, seems to be with builder organization. How about a minor change to the packaging itself from Van's? Isn't that what these guys are suggesting? Instead, the fix is left up to the future builder.

Until this issue is resolved, I have decided to hold off on the purchase.
 
Drift: This really isn't worth holding off on purchase, figuring out the nutplates is not too bad. I think on the entire plane, I messed up a single nutplate which was easily fixable by using a pulled rivet and a 90 degree drill. I had only this one instance of a problem, and I left all the stuff in the bag the whole time!

The best way to go about it is to just be careful about identifying parts! The plastic bins seem like a great idea, as well as using an identification plate. For the nutplates it would be as easy as figuring out the thread-type for all the screws (basically just a #6, #8, and a few others) and labeling a bunch of screws.

It really isn't as big of a deal as people here make it out to be. Does it suck? Sometimes. Is it worth not starting your build? Probably not.
 
Thanks Erich,

Points well taken. Thanks for the advice.

Plan on starting my RV-12 kit this fall. Maybe by then, Van's will make some changes in packaging to reduce some of the confusion.
 
No reason to delay kit purchase!

I will chime with Erich and recommend not to delay purchase because of this kind of problem. I have lots of respect for the good work VANs is doing on the RV-12 kit like the packaging of the parts in the shipping crates, the instructions and the lead time for kit deliveries that are all without reproach. VANs as most small size companies is vulnerable to the economic conditions of our time and needs our support. This being said, there is always room for improvement, even in paper bagging!
 
WingedFrog said:
This being said, there is always room for improvement, even in paper bagging!
Click to expand...

Have you considered the method of packaging hardware is done to facilitate things at the supply end of the pipeline, and not the end user???

Once I inventoried my tail kit, and determined all items were there, the very next thing I did was to open all the bags, and put all the various standard hardware into bins of like items. Oddball hardware went into its own bin.

At least for the RV 10, the plans call for a part by the spec, and not by a bag number, so why not save a lot of time down the line, and organize things the way they will be used???
 
I totally agree with Mike S. Get some of those small parts bins from your local discount big box store, and a Dymo label maker. Go through all your bags and put them away accordingly. It might take a few hours or more but the benefit is you will have everything organized and labeled, plus you become familiar with the many different small parts and hardware. I can't imagine a silly complaint like this would prevent someone from ordering a kit from Van's.:cool:
 
Make a learning experience

As a complete novice, I had no idea what all this hardware was. I took every bag at inventory time and split it into identical components. It took a little time, but I learned a lot about shapes and sizes.

As for filing, I bought an industrial pack of envelopes and put just one type of component in each, and wrote on the outside what it was. The envelopes got filed in four shoe boxes. No expense for plastic boxes and Dymo. Envelopes got chucked as they were emptied.

I never had an instance of using the wrong part, and never lost anything. Some basic inventory control really does save time. BTW I'm no hero, I made all my mistakes doing other things wrong ;-)

Cheers...Keith
 
One of the bags that gave me fits was the plastic one with a zillion washers in it of different sizes. I just ran a google image search on each one to figure out what was what.
 
While there must be a method to Van's madness on how and why they package the hardware the way they do, I have never figured it out. It must really be optimized for them on their end. I doubt you will ever convice them to change their system as they have been doing it this way all the way back to the early years.

I did like others stated above. Inventory the bags, dump them all out and sort them into standard bins. Put oddballs in the oddball bin.
The first few years of my build I did not do this and it costed me some major time searching thru bags. After I put everything into standard bins, the time searching for hardware went way way down!

What I hate is those darn paper labels that self destruct when you try to get em off leaving behind a mess!!!
 
Last edited:
I agree with what many people are saying here, and in response to the other related threads. For me, inventorying (is that a word?) my parts into bins was really educational. I still don't quite have my head around the different plate nuts, but at least at one point i took the time to figure it out and put them in their own bins. May take time up front, but when i need a part, i just need to find the label and i'm set.

I like sig's idea of googling the parts you're not sure what they are.
 
Paper bags

Sorry but I go against the tide here, I like the bags. When I inventoried my kit last ages ago I put the items back into the bags and wrote on them with an indelible pen what they contained. As I have used the parts they have been easy to find etc.

Just my opinion.
Rob
 
Assortment Boxes!

9GT said:
I totally agree with Mike S. Get some of those small parts bins from your local discount big box store, and a Dymo label maker. Go through all your bags and put them away accordingly. It might take a few hours or more but the benefit is you will have everything organized and labeled, plus you become familiar with the many different small parts and hardware. I can't imagine a silly complaint like this would prevent someone from ordering a kit from Van's.:cool:
Click to expand...

This is a good idea,

He who hesitates stalls!

We have a great selection of very durable yet see through organization boxes.
 
I don't know why Van's have packaged things the way they have, but if you check the contents of each bag as they ask you to, and store the parts in some kind of systematic order, you should not have any problems. The mixed parts are easy enough to separate and identify if you read what's supposed to be in the bag. I'm also a first time builder, and I'm surprised that this is even being raised as a concern, much less a reason for possibly not ordering a kit. :confused:
 
Last edited:
Seems I was not understood

Let's try to make my point again:
It would be stupid not to inventory and store the hardware in bins as many have suggested. This is not the point.
Inventorying plastic bags: no problem, they have only one type of hardware in and it's printed on the bag.
Inventorying paper bags: some have several parts in and the inventory tells you what they are like K1000-3, K1000-4, K1000-08. They also give you the quantities of each so sometimes if you count everything you may be able to determine which is what but... sometimes the quantities are the same and sometimes they are wrong (usually a few extras).
My point: why do you put parts that can be confused in the same bag? You want to save money on your paper bags? Fine, mix in one bag parts that cannot be confused like bolts with washers and platenuts but only one of each type to avoid confusion.
Does not make sense to have to take my caliper out to measure the length of bolts in order to find out in what bin I should store them... and I don't even mention platenuts!
 
Driftdown said:
Over the past several weeks, there have been numerous posts regarding the confusion (especially, nut plates) and installation errors which first time builders have experienced. They have been vocal about it and shared their frustrations. I am a bit surprised that Van's has not been more pro active in correcting the problem directly, by making minor adjustments to the packaging process, it seems it would make identification less confusing and improve the quality of the kit product. The passive, default solution, seems to be with builder organization. How about a minor change to the packaging itself from Van's? Isn't that what these guys are suggesting? Instead, the fix is left up to the future builder.

Until this issue is resolved, I have decided to hold off on the purchase.
Click to expand...

Those of us who mined the bauxite, pounded out the lumps of aluminum into sheets and drilled EVERY hole in the plane are getting quite a chuckle out of this post. :D

And yes.......there were little brown bags even back then!

Order your -12 and get started building. You have received excellent advise on how to organize your shop and become educated in the hardware world. :)
 
Van's even included an AN bolt gauge in the kit,, (at least my -10 kit did) so no need to measure with calipers.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Those of us who mined the bauxite, pounded out the lumps of aluminum into sheets and drilled EVERY hole in the plane are getting quite a chuckle out of this post. :D

And yes.......there were little brown bags even back then!

Order your -12 and get started building. You have received excellent advise on how to organize your shop and become educated in the hardware world. :)
Click to expand...

Aha!... spoken like a true BUILDER. Not like us -12 bag sorters and parts assemblers. We have it easy. Well said, Sam :)
 
I used the bag contents method for several weeks, then came upon a way that seems to be far more accurate and easy for me. This box can be bought at Harbor Freight for just several dollars, I find at this stage I KNOW what I am looking for looks like, so it is easy to spot them in the clear plastic boxes, labeled of course.
2rrbhax.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Are we discovering the difference between an LSA builder and an Experimental - Amateur Built builder? As part of the justification for the latter, the process was for recreation and /or education... education as in learning about AN (an now MS) hardware.

Maybe Van should shrink wrap all the LSA hardware, individually on poster boards with labels, and charge the LSA folks for the "easy to find" service. I believe some kit aircraft suppliers do this, not as an option, but required for all purchasers.
 
the bags stink

While it is easy to separate all the bag contents into parts bins and figure out which platenut is which, it is still an unnecessary rite of passage just waiting for someone to improve.

Idea: Ask Van's for the option to strike all the fastener bags from the kit - just send the aluminum. Then Gahco or someone else can sell pre-organized containers with double the number of fasteners required to build an RV. Van's does you no favors sending just enough nuts and bolts in that myriad of magical mystery bags. I wish I could have back all the time and money spent on "shipping and handling" during the build.
 
Sam Buchanan said:
Those of us who mined the bauxite, pounded out the lumps of aluminum into sheets and drilled EVERY hole in the plane are getting quite a chuckle out of this post. :D

And yes.......there were little brown bags even back then!

Order your -12 and get started building. You have received excellent advise on how to organize your shop and become educated in the hardware world. :)
Click to expand...

And then build time was counted in years ... or lasted for ever!
 
I have enjoyed learning all about the hardware and how it properly works. this is part of building, you expand your knowledge base as you inventory / build. Yes, separating the hardware out is somewhat of a pain, but it pays off in the end. I would never base my decision to build an aircraft on how the hardware is shipped from the factory. When we started, we did not know alot about different nutplates, bolts and washers, but it almost becomes second nature the farther you get along.
 
KALEWIS said:
I have enjoyed learning all about the hardware and how it properly works. this is part of building, you expand your knowledge base as you inventory / build. Yes, separating the hardware out is somewhat of a pain, but it pays off in the end. I would never base my decision to build an aircraft on how the hardware is shipped from the factory. When we started, we did not know alot about different nutplates, bolts and washers, but it almost becomes second nature the farther you get along.
Click to expand...

This quote really sums it up.When we started our build I had very limited knowledge of milspec, AN. NAS. I was lost trying to make sure I had the right nutplate, washer etc. The way I did it which some might thnk is slow or goofy was get the ACS or Wicks catalouge and look at the pics and description and figure it out. I have no complaints about the paper bag system. Being able to identify the correct fastener or whatever is called out is part of it and is MY responsibility regardless of which bag Vans puts it in. No disrespect intended.
 
WingedFrog said:
mix items that cannot be misidentified like bolts with washers and nutplates
Click to expand...

This is actually a very good idea and not really out of place for both the builder and the supplier. Case in point: LL Bean (you may have heard of them, they're a small outdoors supplier up in Freeport, Maine) - anyway, their warehouses are setup so similar things are *not* near each other. The goal was to isure that a woman's small fleece jacket was not mistaken for a medium or for a man's fleece jacket. In stead, the woman's small fleece jacket is next to the woman's small moccasins and the woman's small gortex jacket.

A similar method could help both the builder and supplier.

Then again, those plastic boxes work great too :)
 
What I find interesting about this discussion is that no one has bothered to ask "why the heck does Van's bag things the way they do?" Understanding an issue is generally the first step in solving it. What I have found (and believe to be true, but have not verified it) is that Van's bags things by "subassembly" if you will. There is a parts bag for the RV-3 canopy, for instance - all the bits and pieces that go with making that part of the airplane. "Elevator bearings" is another. If you are making up kits out of sub-kits, this makes a whole lot of sense - especially if people need to order parts to make a new elevator. Imagine the parts-picker having to go through the warehouse to find all the pieces to make up a kit for someone who needed a new rudder....

Granted, do you want to make thing better for the customer or the sup;lier is a good and valid question - but I better if it is harder for the factory, then it is going to cost more!

Whether you unpack all the little bags during inventory and put all the "like" items in the same containers, undoing the "component-sorted" bags, or if you leave things in the bags and go get the appropriate bag when working on that component is probably dependent on how your brain works - there isn't a "right" answer. I do agree that there is educational value in making us all learn the hardware by looking at, and identifying it. (Does the value of the education outweigh the frustration? Good question!)

For the RV-8, I put all the rivets in plastic boxes by size and left pretty much everything else in the bags, using the inventory list to help me find stuff as I needed it. The -3 had been previously worked on by it's first owner, and so we sorted all the common hardware in to bins, but kept the bags that were clearly for specific purposes (like the canopy latch for instance) intact.

I doubt that there is a single answer that works for everyone, but I expect that the system Van uses works for them to keep costs down for all of us.

Paul
 
We use little rubbermaid canisters to organize the hardware, then throw it all in a larger bin and find it when we need it. If we had more room, we would line up all the canisters on a wall or something like that.

28sausz.jpg
 
I sympathize with the original and very specific question posed here. My response to it is that, so far, when like items are mixed in a bag they have been of different quantities. So by separating out each type of (for example) washer, you can usually ID them by the quantity. This ASSUMES that Van's gets those right, and sometimes they are off by one or two, leaving two groups of similar washers with the same quantity. But if they were right on a prior order, you can match the new ones to the bin where you put the earlier ones.

I ran short of bins and began mixing very unlike things in the same bin, with more than one label. That has worked OK but more bins would be better. I also keep very similar things non-adjacent - I don't want a "spill" of 3.5 rivets to flop over into an adjacent bin of 4.0 rivets and spend an hour sorting them out.
 
Image search?

Sig600 said:
One of the bags that gave me fits was the plastic one with a zillion washers in it of different sizes. I just ran a google image search on each one to figure out what was what.
Click to expand...

Google image search? I hate to expose my lack of cyber skill, but what is it and where do you access?
 
The simple fact is vans packages things in a way that you can figure out exactly what is what, and how many. It is up to you(and me) the builder to figure out what is the right part, and even if Vans individually packaged things there would be inadvertant mixups either at their end or our end and WE need to make sure we are using hte right part. Nobody else's fault if the wrong part gets used. Vans is obviously doing something that has worked for them, builders if you are having problems need to do something differently or figure out what works for you.

besides, paper bags are good for the environment :D
 
Great milage with this thread!

I didn't expect that much bang, beyond expectations. It has been as educative as my sheet metal workshop! Best of all, the humor like the great metaphor of the "bauxite miners" from Sam. Hard to beat that? May be not after all: what about the "cotton pickers"? You know these two guys who came to the outer banks with their sewing machine around the turn of last century. Their supplies came from a bicycle shop and a lumber yard, the VANs of the time I figure. Deliveries where by sailing boat coming from Elizabeth city... and the rest is aviation history. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top