thoughts on cost of Efis vs Steam gauges

[miyu1975]

I intend to have a light IFR panel. I want an EFIS either Dynon or GRT. But also want to be flying soon that later. I originally was going to put in standard steam gauges but after looking at a cost analysis it almost appears that the EFIS, especially with engine sensors, the cost is no much more than standard gauges...plus you get a lot more IMO. I have budgeted 14k for the panel. Is that realisitic for a single efis unit panel or should I stick with steam gauges..?

 

[pierre smith]

Hi Ryan....

....go with the Dynon. I have a six pack in my -6 with a vacuum pump and gyros. My buddy's -4 has a Dynon.....11 pounds lighter and less $$ as well, no vac pump. He's also installing the Dynon servos since the D-180 has the autopilot software already installed. The Dynon has a page that shows your go-to waypoint, ETA, ETE, Bearing and so on, fed from his Garmin 496...also calculates winds aloft, based on info from the 496 such as groundspeed and track, compared to the Dynon's knowledge of your heading and airspeed.

Regards,

 

[N208ET]

Which do you like

Build whatever you like to fly with. I would think with your budget that you could have a decent panel, be it glass or steam. I went with glass for 2 reasons, 1 I went as low cost as possible and there is alot of used steam gauges out there, and 2 That is what I like to fly with.

Randy
8A
Finishing and FWF

 

[Alan Carroll]

Cost of gyro panel

I have vacuum gyros, but were I doing it again would go with one of the EFIS systems. At the time I was building my panel (early 2000s) the present generation affordable systems just weren't ready yet.

However, if you're mostly concerned with cost, consider that there is currently another poster who is offering to sell his entire vacuum system (pump, gyros, etc) for $999 used. No efis system will come close to this. Lightly used vacuum gyro systems can be had cheaply as people replace them with efis systems.

 

[carguy614]

Dynon

I'm with Pierre. My 9 has a dynon D100, D120, Val INS422 VOR GS MB, Icom 210, Garmin transponder, Back up steam altimeter, airspeed and SIRS compass. Single axis True track AP and a panel mounted Avmap. Complete panel with sensors and AOA pitot, breakers, CO monitor,Stereo Sigtronics intercom,antennas, and LED panel lighting came in at less than your budget. It is also as easy to install as a steam panel. Don't forget to figure in the cost of a vacuum system and regulator when making the comparison. As far as flying the package goes, I am very happy with the way it all flies. The glass seems to keep you focused, and there is less scanning to get the information you need. Takes about an hour to get used to it, and then you never want to go back. Had a minor problem with pitch display on my EFIS, and I can only say that Dynon was stellar at handling the issue. Couldn't ask for better customer service and fast shipping on the repairs. Building another 9 now, and will go with Dynon again. Trust me, you will love the glass. Hop a ride with a pair if you get the chance. You'll see what I mean.

All the best,
Chris

 

[roee]

Make sure to understand *all* the differences

Ryan,

Even the relatively low-end "glass" products are superior to "steam gauges" in most respects, including cost, weight, and simplicity of installation. Another major advantage of glass is the way data is presented, which if properly trained, can reduce the pilot's mental workload. EFIS systems are also generally far more reliable than steam gauges (no moving parts, no vacuum system).

However, they are electrically dependent. And also otherwise, like any other device, EFIS systems can malfunction. They have their own vulnerabilities and failure modes, but which are different than those that affect steam gauges. You must understand these vulnerabilities and failure modes, and design your overall system -- avionics package, electrical system, etc. -- to deal with them. Especially for an IFR airplane. For example, what backup instruments will you need in case your primary EFIS fails completely, i.e. your screen goes black while you're in IMC? A limited set of backup steam gauges? Or a second independent EFIS? How about an independent power source?

The vulnerabilities and failure modes will also vary from one EFIS product to another. You should understand these differences before selecting which EFIS unit(s) to install in your airplane. For example, the Dynon instruments have been known to have a particular vulnerability to pitot-static errors which can cause major corruption of the attitude solution. In other words, if you get a blocked pitot or static port with a Dynon, you will get inaccurate readings on your pressure instruments as well as attitude. A much worse situation than the classic "partial panel" scenarios that you are now training on. Now, I'm not trying to pick on Dynon. All these different vendors and products out there have their strengths and weaknesses. These are mostly not so critical for a VFR airplane, but can be absolutely vital for IFR.

I hope I'm not discouraging you away from glass. I personally believe that the benefits of glass far exceed the weaknesses, so long as the weaknesses are appropriately dealt with in the overall system design. I'm just trying to point out, by example, that you should do your homework and take these types of considerations seriously in making your choices.

 

[penguin]

Fit backups

If you go glass I would strongly urge you to fit a back-up airspeed, altimeter and either turn & slip or horizon. There are no glass panels that are sufficiently reliable for IFR without back-ups. Any of the manufacturers will recommend back-ups. My own view is that GRT is a far better engineered product than Dynon (hence price difference). If you fit an autopilot then a separate box, with its own gyros (eg GRT & TruTrak) is a much better solution than everything relying on one set of sensors (Dynon). Dynon is great for VFR, but I think GRT is better for IFR.

Pete

 

[miyu1975]

thx all...thix is my intended set up..
GRT Sport $5,000.00
Airspeed Indicator $200.00
Altimeter $300.00
Turn Coor $500.00
Compass $100.00
Garmin SL 30nav.com $3,500.00
IFR GPS - ebay $1,000.00
Transponder used $1,000.00
Audio Panel $1,500.00

$13,100.00

Realisitic..what am I leaving out.?

 

[miyu1975]

grt sport with engine sensors too.

 

[RScott]

Just a couple data points:

Cessna offered the choice of steam or glass in, the 182 (I think) but discontinued choices when they went for years with no orders for steam gages. That says something about resale value.

The certificated planes with glass panels that I have seen all have steam gage backup for airspeed, altitude and horizon.

 

[roee]

thx all...thix is my intended set up..
...
Airspeed Indicator $200.00
Altimeter $300.00
Turn Coor $500.00
Compass $100.00
...

Realisitic..what am I leaving out.?

The certificated planes with glass panels that I have seen all have steam gage backup for airspeed, altitude and horizon.

That's a reasonable approach. But just another reminder to consider the failure modes, and plan on making provisions to deal with them. Specifically, it would be wise for the EFIS and the backup gyro (whether it's a turn coordinator or an attitude indicator) to not both be dependent on the same power source. You will probably want either 1) dual electrical systems, or 2) one of a myriad of more limited emergency power schemes. Whatever you're comfortable with... but do your homework. Sound like you have time to think about the details. But if you're putting together a budget, plan on spending another $500 to $1000 on electrical system redundancy (but you eliminated the vacuum system, so really it's a wash).

 

[Ironflight]

Realisitic..what am I leaving out.?

I guess I haven't shopped for an IFR GPS on Ebay, but I'd be surprised if you can find one that you'd be happy using for $1000. And don't forget, you're going to need a subscription to keep it current....but hey, anything is possible!

What are you leaving out? If it were me, I wouldn't be comfortable without at least a simple autopilot. RV's are sensitive airplanes, and single pilot IFR is quite challenging without one. I say this after YEARS of flying a fairly sensitive Yankee IFR without an A/P, and the only way that really worked is that it was considerably slower than an RV, so you couldn't go terribly wrong as fast...but drop a pencil, and you better have another one, because you'd be upside down before you found it.

As far as choice of EFIS's, there are quite a few threads here in the "Glass Cockpit" forum that will provide you hours of reading, contributed by a lot of very knowledgeable folks - take advantage of them!

Paul

 

[Brantel]

I guess I haven't shopped for an IFR GPS on Ebay, but I'd be surprised if you can find one that you'd be happy using for $1000. And don't forget, you're going to need a subscription to keep it current....but hey, anything is possible!

Yep there are tons of them on there but do your homework on what your bidding on. Some of the older ones lack moving maps, ARINC outputs, some are not "approach certified" etc. Also be carefull about buying one without antenna or tray/connectors. These can be hard to find and or very expensive new.

Find the install manuals and the operating manuals for whatever model your looking at and make sure it will do what you want and that it has the interfaces you need for connectivity.

Also, most will require some sort of annunciator/switches in addition to the main box. These can be homebrewed pretty easily.

 

[Ironflight]

Good info Brian!

I would emphasize your point about "Approach Certified". We built Louise's new panel last year with just an SL-30, and it is astounding just how many airports she can't get in to IFR - it is just about assumed that you have a DME or Approach GPS now-days. Check the approaches to the airports you want to use - you might find it will affect your equipment choices.

(We're shopping for an approach certified GPS for her BTW....)

 

[gvgoff99]

Possible Considerations

Realisitic..what am I leaving out.?

Maybe you are leaving out a portable GPS that has a nice moving map and the "steam gauge" display. It serves as an electrically independent backup for navigation and it may get you out of a crumby situation with the "steam gauges." Of course in normal conditions it also helps you keep out of the restricted areas, if it gets weather like a Garmin 496 that is very helpful too.
Are you leaving out an autopilot? You may want to invest in an ADI II from TruTrak or something similar. It also is a back up to the EFIS going on the fritz but not to a complete electrical failure.
You could dump the turn coordinator if you get an ADI II and get rid of the compass. The magnetometer is a legal substitute for the old whisky compass.