Testing Aerobatics while in Phase II

[mfleming]

What are the requirements for demonstrating aerobatic maneuvers after entering Phase II?

I've been out of phase 1 for almost a year and would like to complete the aerobatic maneuvers. Here are my Op Limits. Do I just make a notation that the aircraft is placed back in phase 1, demonstrate the aircraft is safe for the maneuvers and then make a notation as described below? Or do I have to contact the FAA about the intention to re-enter the aircraft into phase 1?

 

[Mel]

What are the requirements for demonstrating aerobatic maneuvers after entering Phase II?

I've been out of phase 1 for almost a year and would like to complete the aerobatic maneuvers. Here are my Op Limits. Do I just make a notation that the aircraft is placed back in phase 1, demonstrate the aircraft is safe for the maneuvers and then make a notation as described below? Or do I have to contact the FAA about the intention to re-enter the aircraft into phase 1?View attachment 62775

You need to contact the FSDO and make them aware that you are going back into Phase I to perform aerobatic testing. If you are located where you can use your original test area, tell them that and it should be just a formality. Remember any time you return to Phase I, you must remain there for a minimum of 5 hrs.

 

[mfleming]

Well I contacted my local FSDO office and their answer was surprising. They said that since there were no physical changes to the aircraft, all I had to due was document the aerobatic maneuvers and I'm done. No phase one required, no geographic restriction and no 5 hours. Well, that's what I'm going to do, have a friend fly an aerobatic routine, document each maneuver and call it good. Of course I'll get training in the maneuvers before I try any of them myself.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

That makes way more sense. What would the 5 hours prove after the maneuvers are done a few times to get entry airspeeds, etc.? And you already have to do aerobatics over unpopulated areas, IIRC. Sounds like someone at your FSDO was using their head.

 

[plehrke]

I am not a DAR so my advice here is just “cover my butt” advise.
Did you get your FSDO response in writing like email, or was it verbal over the phone? Since your operating limitation say you need to reenter phase 1 to add additional aerobatic maneuvers, I would save the email and file it with your logbook entry since there will be no logbook entry indicating you reentered phase 1. If verbal I guess it would at least document time, date, and name of person you talked with at the FSDO to go in your logbook.

 

[Mel]

I am not a DAR so my advice here is just “cover my butt” advise.
Did you get your FSDO response in writing like email, or was it verbal over the phone? Since your operating limitation say you need to reenter phase 1 to add additional aerobatic maneuvers, I would save the email and file it with your logbook entry since there will be no logbook entry indicating you reentered phase 1. If verbal I guess it would at least document time, date, and name of person you talked with at the FSDO to go in your logbook.

Sorry but the FSDO does not have authority to override regulations. If you test aerobatics while the aircraft is in Phase II and something happens, You will be responsible, not the FSDO. I STRONGLY recommend that you follow the Operating Limitations issued to your aircraft. THEY are the controlling document!

Please read carefully the last sentence of the limitation quoted. It is binding!

 

[mfleming]

Sorry but the FSDO does not have authority to override regulations. If you test aerobatics while the aircraft is in Phase II and something happens, You will be responsible, not the FSDO. I STRONGLY recommend that you follow the Operating Limitations issued to your aircraft. THEY are the controlling document!

Please read carefully the last sentence of the limitation quoted. It is binding!

OK. So since the FSDO has not addressed any phase 1 limitations, like geographic area or time. Do I just make a notation in the logbook that the aircraft is placed back in phase 1, do the maneuvers, fly the rest if the time off and place the A/C back in phase 2?

 

[Waiex-guy]

Hi Mel, not doubting you on this at all, but curious why the op would need to contact FSDO at all? The OpLim clearly says the owner may place…doesn’t that mean he can just make the logbook entry to phase one, do maneuvers, return to phase two with appropriate entry? Also, where do you find specific limits like 5 hours minimum for phase one?

 

[Mel]

Hi Mel, not doubting you on this at all, but curious why the op would need to contact FSDO at all? The OpLim clearly says the owner may place…doesn’t that mean he can just make the logbook entry to phase one, do maneuvers, return to phase two with appropriate entry? Also, where do you find specific limits like 5 hours minimum for phase one?

This could possibly be a "gray" area. Limitation (23) states that you must notify the FSDO when going back into Phase I, but is does begin with "After incorporating a major change.....".

So it could be argued that for the purpose of aerobatic testing, you may not be required to notify the FSDO since you did not "incorporate a major change" to the aircraft..
This also assumes that your documented test area is local.

Any other DARs care to chime in?

 

[vic syracuse]

Hmmmm. The only time the regulations state you need to contact FSDO is for rentry into Phase I is after a major modification. However, I do see a number of aircraft purchased by non-builder-owners for which there is no entry in the logbooks for aerobatic testing. I do recommend they contact their local FSDO to get a new test area and then perform the aerobatic testing. I’ve not heard of anyone getting assigned 5 hours.
There is no requirement to complete the testing during Phase I. In fact, for low time pilots with no aerobatic experience I recommend they either not do it until they have had some training or have someone else do it.
If the airplane remains local, I do recommend they contact FSDO and verify the test area as defined in their operating limitations is still valid.
Vic

 

[RV7A Flyer]

This could possibly be a "gray" area. Limitation (23) states that you must notify the FSDO when going back into Phase I, but is does begin with "After incorporating a major change.....".

So it could be argued that for the purpose of aerobatic testing, you may not be required to notify the FSDO since you did not "incorporate a major change" to the aircraft..
This also assumes that your documented test area is local.

Any other DARs care to chime in?

IANAL, but the usual way laws and regulations are interpreted would be just as it is written...If the first part of the regulation doesn't apply to a case, then the consequent clause doesn't either.

So...no requirement to notify FSDO (unless you need a new flight test area), no minimum hours. Seems like one could just go up, fly to the flight test area, declare to yourself "I'm now in Phase I", do the maneuvers, say to yourself again "I'm now out of Phase I", fly back home and make the appropriate logbook entries. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do, and again, IANAL, but perfectly legal. Again I say it seems you got someone at FSDO who knows the regs and used their head.

 

[Mel]

IANAL, but the usual way laws and regulations are interpreted would be just as it is written...If the first part of the regulation doesn't apply to a case, then the consequent clause doesn't either.

So...no requirement to notify FSDO (unless you need a new flight test area), no minimum hours. Seems like one could just go up, fly to the flight test area, declare to yourself "I'm now in Phase I", do the maneuvers, say to yourself again "I'm now out of Phase I", fly back home and make the appropriate logbook entries. Sounds like a reasonable thing to do, and again, IANAL, but perfectly legal. Again I say it seems you got someone at FSDO who knows the regs and used their head.

OK, Let's say you do that. You fly out to the test area, say to your self "I'm now in phase I". During one of the maneuvers, something goes wrong an you crash into someone on the ground.
Since there's no logbook entry, the aircraft is now still in phase II and you have crashed during an illegal aerobatic maneuver. What do you tell the judge during the wrongful death trial?

Your Op Lims specifically state that you may not do any aerobatic maneuvers in phase II that have not been signed off in phase I.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

This could possibly be a "gray" area. Limitation (23) states that you must notify the FSDO when going back into Phase I, but is does begin with "After incorporating a major change.....".

Then there comes the question: what is a 'major change'? New wing tips? Changing landing gear fairings? Adding fuel filters? Different prop? I would imagine that might be open to a bit of interpretation. Unless there is a specific list of 'major changes'.

 

[jrs14855]

8 years ago but I don't think there have been any changes. Major change would be from piston engine to turbine etc or fixed pitch to constant speed etc.

 

[Mel]

Then there comes the question: what is a 'major change'? New wing tips? Changing landing gear fairings? Adding fuel filters? Different prop? I would imagine that might be open to a bit of interpretation. Unless there is a specific list of 'major changes'.

Major change has been discussed many, many times before. Basically anything that significantly changes the flight characteristics of the airplane. Significant changes to weight & balance, gross weight, large HP change, etc.

The change of engine "type" and/or F/P to or from CS prop is a different thing. These changes require a new 8130-6 to update information on registration.

Most common answer to most questions is, "Read your operation limitations carefully!"

 

[RV7A Flyer]

OK, Let's say you do that. You fly out to the test area, say to your self "I'm now in phase I". During one of the maneuvers, something goes wrong an you crash into someone on the ground.
Since there's no logbook entry, the aircraft is now still in phase II and you have crashed during an illegal aerobatic maneuver. What do you tell the judge during the wrongful death trial?

Your Op Lims specifically state that you may not do any aerobatic maneuvers in phase II that have not been signed off in phase I.

Suppose I put a note in my logbook that notes that portions of the next flight will be Phase I testing. And I note in my logbook when I get back which portions were Phase I. And I put said information into the aircraft logbooks.

Your point is well taken, though...since I don't have to tell FSDO when I'm going to do some additional Phase I testing of aerobatic maneuvers, I should probably note the intent of the upcoming flight somewhere. Why would that not suffice?

 

[RV7A Flyer]

OK, Let's say you do that. You fly out to the test area, say to your self "I'm now in phase I". During one of the maneuvers, something goes wrong an you crash into someone on the ground.
Since there's no logbook entry, the aircraft is now still in phase II and you have crashed during an illegal aerobatic maneuver. What do you tell the judge during the wrongful death trial?

Your Op Lims specifically state that you may not do any aerobatic maneuvers in phase II that have not been signed off in phase I.

I do note that you went from:

You need to contact the FSDO and make them aware that you are going back into Phase I to perform aerobatic testing. If you are located where you can use your original test area, tell them that and it should be just a formality. Remember any time you return to Phase I, you must remain there for a minimum of 5 hrs.

which was apparently wrong, to "what if you crash while doing additional aerobatic testing?

BTW, let's say that someone has a requirement to re-enter Phase I testing. Do they make an aircraft logbook entry that *says* that they are back in Phase I? Where is the requirement for that entry?

 

[BobTurner]

Regardless of what one may think the letter of the law is, remember that if you ever sell the aircraft, accurate written records are worth their weight in gold.

 

[Mel]

I do note that you went from:



which was apparently wrong, to "what if you crash while doing additional aerobatic testing?

BTW, let's say that someone has a requirement to re-enter Phase I testing. Do they make an aircraft logbook entry that *says* that they are back in Phase I? Where is the requirement for that entry?

I give up. Do what you want. Read operation limitation (23).

 

[jrs14855]

Hundreds maybe thousands of EAB flying with out of date engine information.Engine info is SUPPOSED to be a part of registration. Lots of engine unknown's where the engine info is supposed to be.

 

[Webb]

Let me see if I get this right…..

- Aerobatic testing is not a major change so it isn’t mandatory to contact the FSDO but it is advisable
- if not not performed in phase 1, maneuvers can’t be flown in phase 2
- must return to phase 1 and make entry in log book of tests
- return to phase 2 when completed with logbook entry
- Ops limitations need to be updated in POH

I know I’m missing something.

Another question…….If the plane has been put back in phase 1, and the Builder Pilot doesn’t do the tests, is a QP under the APP required Since it is phase 1?

 

[mfleming]

OK, as the one who started this thread, here is what I did.

Called my local FSDO and notified them I would be putting my RV back in phase 1. FSDO said it wasn't necessary...my OP limits say otherwise. My op limits don't say anything about geographic limits or time so those points were not documented. I then made an entry into my logbook that The RV is now back in phase 1 for aerobatic testing. My aerobatic test pilot took the RV up and flew all the maneuvers I wanted. After landing, I made an entry into the logbook following the op limit guidelines. Then a logbook entry was made putting the RV back in phase 2.

This, I believe satisfies the the letter and intent of the op limits IMHO.

 

[Mel]

OK, as the one who started this thread, here is what I did.

Called my local FSDO and notified them I would be putting my RV back in phase 1. FSDO said it wasn't necessary...my OP limits say otherwise. My op limits don't say anything about geographic limits or time so those points were not documented. I then made an entry into my logbook that The RV is now back in phase 1 for aerobatic testing. My aerobatic test pilot took the RV up and flew all the maneuvers I wanted. After landing, I made an entry into the logbook following the op limit guidelines. Then a logbook entry was made putting the RV back in phase 2.

This, I believe satisfies the the letter and intent of the op limits IMHO.

You did good. Congratulations.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Why so many post? Ha ha. Let me add one more.
Adding the Aerobatic certification entry does not put it back to Phase 1 as far as I know (but depends on original operating FAA issued Op limitations)
I am more interested not in the paper work aspect, but safety.

My question have YOU done aerobatics? Have you done them in an RV?
Read Van's info on doing aerobatics in an RV. Know you entry speeds.
What speeds and maneuvers do you plan on demonstrating?
Are you doing it solo? Parachute? Chute not required solo* but I think it's a keen idea to wear one when doing aerobatics.
What airspace is legal (G and most E except airways). Hard deck 1500' AGL.
Note if you do it over where people see and complain, you may get FAA involved even if 100% legal. ADS-B is a wonderful thing.

Can you have an experienced pilot fly with you? Yes, but recommend they meet AC 91-116. Within Aerobatic max weight. You will need two chutes with two pilots.*
Read Van's info on doing aerobatics in an RV. Know your entry speeds.
Highly recommend a G-METER if only temporarily installed. NO maneuver needs more than about 3G's to enter or exit.

I have new to RV Acro pilots do a smooth wings level 3G pull up, relax back to 1G and level off again. Why? To get feel for stick pressure.
Then I have then do very near full stick deflection roll left no more than 60 degrees and back 60 degrees the opposite direction, and back level.
This gets them use to roll rate and making large control deflections in roll. You don't want to DISH out of a roll into a steep inverted dive.
RV-4 and RV-8 stick gets VERY light with a back seat passenger. Again fly with experienced aerobatic pilot in an RV first is my suggestion.

What maneuvers will you certify to? Loop (round or egg shape ha ha), Left/Right slow aileron roll, barrel rolls L/R, Immelmann, and Split-S. The last one too high entry speed, say from cruise speed could be fatal. You have to slow way down. RV's build speed like a demon. I personally am not a fan of spins in the RV-7 even with the big rudder, but spins should be part of the test program IN MY OPINION. Why aerobatic maneuvers can end up being a spin. This is why I recommend a sport pilot emergency chute and way to jettison canopy. Gets some ground training on how to use an emergency chute. I think all RV's have demonstrated spin and spin recovery by Van's Aircraft. If I do spins in is one fully developed rotation, and start recovery. One and done. RV's like many planes have modes of spins, incipit and full. Some have a second full mode, typically after more than 3 rotations, they wind up. RV-7 has this second full mode which I understand is spectacular, but recoverable. Van's AC hired a flight test pilot. Not even Van the man wanted to do it. (BTW Van is a fantastic pilot and has aerobatic waver I recall. He has done airshows). That is why the early RV-7's had a change the initial rudder, larger, to help spin recovery. Early empennage kit buyers with small shorter chord rudder, got the new larger rudder sent to them. Clearly entry for intentional spins is well above 1500 agl for spins.


* Parachutes During Aerobatics 14 CFR 91.307. Section (c) states:

"(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds --

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon."

Note that this regulation states that, during aerobatic flight, all persons in the aircraft must have a parachute whenever people OTHER THAN CREWMEMBER(S) are carried. Therefore, when the only person on board is the pilot, and no others are carried, a parachute is not required. However, when a passenger is carried in an aircraft during aerobatics, all persons on board INCLUDING crewmember(s) are required to be wearing parachutes. (There is one exception to this I know of.)

I am sure no one has ever done a loop or roll with a passenger without parachute? Ha ha. You do not have to ever jump to use an emergency chute but there are some things to think about and rehearse on the ground and in your head.

 

[mfleming]

Why so many post? Ha ha. Let me add one more.
Adding the Aerobatic certification entry does not put it back to Phase 1 as far as I know.
I am more interested not in the paper work but safety.

My question have YOU done aerobatics? Have you done them in an RV?
Read Van's info on doing aerobatics in an RV. Know you entry speeds.
What speeds and maneuvers do you plan on demonstrating?
Are you doing it solo? Parachute? Is not required solo* but a keen idea doing aerobatics.
What airspace is legal (G and most E except airways). Hard deck 1500' AGL.
Note if you do it over where people see and complain, you may get FAA involved even if 100% legal. ADS-B is a wonderful thing.

Can you have an experienced pilot fly with you? Yes, but recommend they meet AC 91-116. Within Aerobatic max weight. You will need two chutes with two pilots.*
Read Van's info on doing aerobatics in an RV. Know your entry speeds.
Highly recommend a G-METER if only temporarily installed. NO maneuver needs more than about 3G's to enter or exit.

I have new to RV Acro pilots do a smooth wings level 3G pull up, relax back to 1G and level off again. Why? To get feel for stick pressure.
Then I have then do very near full stick deflection roll left no more than 60 degrees and back 60 degrees the opposite direction, and back level.
This gets them use to roll rate and making large control deflections in roll. You don't want to DISH out of a roll into a steep inverted dive.
RV-4 and RV-8 stick gets VERY light with a back seat passenger. Again fly with experienced aerobatic pilot in an RV first is my suggestion.

What maneuvers will you certify to? Loop, Left/Right slow aileron roll, barrel rolls L/R, Immelmann, and Split-S. The last one too high entry speed, say from cruise speed could be fatal. You have to slow way down. RV's build speed like a demon. I personally am not a fan of spins in the RV-7 even with the big rudder, but spins should be part of the test program IN MY OPINION. Why aerobatic maneuvers can end up being a spin. This is why I recommend a sport pilot emergency chute and way to jettison canopy. Gets some ground training on how to use an emergency chute. I think all RV's have demonstrated spin and spin recovery by Van's Aircraft. If I do spins in is one fully developed rotation, and start recovery. One and done. RV's like many planes have modes of spins, incipit and full. Some have a second full mode, typically after more than 3 rotations, they wind up. RV-7 has this second full mode which I understand is spectacular, but recoverable. Van's AC hired a flight test pilot. Not even Van the man wanted to do it. (BTW Van is a fantastic pilot and has aerobatic waver I recall. He has done airshows). That is why the early RV-7's had a change the initial rudder, larger, to help spin recovery. Early empennage kit buyers with small shorter chord rudder, got the new larger rudder sent to them. Clearly entry for intentional spins is well above 1500 agl for spins.


* Parachutes During Aerobatics 14 CFR 91.307. Section (c) states:

"(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds --

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon."

Note that this regulation states that, during aerobatic flight, all persons in the aircraft must have a parachute whenever people OTHER THAN CREWMEMBER(S) are carried. Therefore, when the only person on board is the pilot, and no others are carried, a parachute is not required. However, when a passenger is carried in an aircraft during aerobatics, all persons on board INCLUDING crewmember(s) are required to be wearing parachutes. (There is one exception to this I know of.)

I am sure no one has ever done a loop or roll with a passenger without parachute.

Hahahaha, yes this thread got a lot of attention.

You make many good points about doing aerobatics, let alone in a RV. A friend who is an experienced RV-8 aerobatic pilot did my aerobatic test. He wasn’t impressed with the -7 compared to a -8. That being said, my -7 has the -8 rudder. I’m not sure how that effects rolls, loops, Cuban 8’s etc.. But it definitely affects spin recovery. My -7 was spin resistant but was not as precise as a -8 on recovery.

My intention about aerobatics are a little unclear. I would like to do some training but worry I’ll not practice enough to be proficient, which to me means unsafe.

 

[skybolt31]

How specific do you need to get with the maneuvers? Do you just do a loop, roll, hamerhead, snap and spin? Everything else is a combination of these basic building blocks. A half cuban is 5/8 of a loop and then a half roll. If you did the loop and roll are you covered for the half cuban? Needless to say there are literally several thousand variations of these basic maneuvers.

 

[Ironflight]

How specific do you need to get with the maneuvers? Do you just do a loop, roll, hamerhead, snap and spin? Everything else is a combination of these basic building blocks. A half cuban is 5/8 of a loop and then a half roll. If you did the loop and roll are you covered for the half cuban? Needless to say there are literally several thousand variations of these basic maneuvers.

Some things are better let unasked - or at least unanswered by the powers that be. Remember, the more specific the answers, the more specific the precedent that gets set in writing. Be very careful when poking the bear….

BTW, I like your reasoning - I’d have to think about if there are any other maneuvers that have significantly different entry conditions that would make them unique. You’re really logging entry conditions….

 

[skybolt31]

Some things are better let unasked - or at least unanswered by the powers that be. Remember, the more specific the answers, the more specific the precedent that gets set in writing. Be very careful when poking the bear….

BTW, I like your reasoning - I’d have to think about if there are any other maneuvers that have significantly different entry conditions that would make them unique. You’re really logging entry conditions….

I know what you mean, it is probably better not to know

 

[airguy]

Some things are better let unasked - or at least unanswered by the powers that be. Remember, the more specific the answers, the more specific the precedent that gets set in writing. Be very careful when poking the bear….

BTW, I like your reasoning - I’d have to think about if there are any other maneuvers that have significantly different entry conditions that would make them unique. You’re really logging entry conditions….

Don't ask the question, if you think you might not like the answer.