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TCP in Avgas?

Ex Bonanza Bucko

Well Known Member
OK. Thanks for all the input about how to manage with ethanol in car gas.

But, as everyone knows, there ain't no auto gas on most airports because the auto gas STC gets voided by the ethanol.

So...do you have any input or experience with TCP in Avgas in a Rotax engine?

What does that do to warranties, certification, safety etc. etc.

Thanks.

EBB
 
I use decalin. TCP, as I understand it, has problems with transport, maybe corrosion.

Both are lead scavengers.
 
Mitch will probably chime in, but he has been flying the Blue RV-12 demonstrator exclusively on a diet of 100LL and Decalin since the airplane was new with no negative effects (but all of the recommended maint. intervals for leaded fuel are followed)

For most pilots, they will use mogas when possible, and then use 100LL a small amount when traveling. This situation probably doesn't even make using Decalin worth the trouble, but it wont hurt.

I would not recommend traveling with TCP in your aircraft (and the manufacturer doesn't either) because of the corrosive properties of some of its chemicals.
 
As Scott said, I have been using 100LL/Decalin exclusively for four years and 560 flight hours. I change the oil at the required intervals and have had no ill effects, with one caveat. At approximately 100 hours after a spark plug change, I can feel it in the engine that the plugs are starting to load up. It doesn't run rough, it doesn't misfire or anything untoward. I used to clean and gap them. But since they only cost $2.50 each, it really wasn't worth the effort. So I just change them when I start to notice it.

Also, I had the 600 hour inspection recently performed on the gearbox. No lead issues as reported to us by Lockwood.

Engine hours math doesn't add up? My engine was in the yellow RV-12 prototype and had 200 hours on it when I received it. So it now has 760 hours total time. Still runnin' strong.

One other thing. TCP is very corrosive. Get some on your skin and watch out. I don't know if it is related, but I was using TCP for 40 hours before I switched to Decalin. At 40 hours I lost the mechanical fuel pump in flight. The diaphragm had failed. I installed a new pump and switched to Decalin. The new pump was running strong at 480 hours when I had to replace it as per the Rotax SB.
 
TCP use

I've used TCP religiously for 25 yrs starting in my Long-EZ and now the RV-9A. It makes big difference in mitigating lead fouling in plugs. It also will keep that brass fuel selector valve from getting stiff and unusable a few years down the road. I don't leave home without it!!
 
Do you know if Vans has a problem with TCP or Decalin? Apparently Rotax doesn't but I'm seriously thinking about a Vans S-LSA RV12 so Vans rules would apply.
Thanks,

EBB
 
Do you know if Vans has a problem with TCP or Decalin? Apparently Rotax doesn't but I'm seriously thinking about a Vans S-LSA RV12 so Vans rules would apply.
Thanks,

EBB

See post #5 in this thread.
Mitch is the East coast rep. for Van's and the Blue RV-12 demonstrator he flys is owned by Van's.
 
RVBuilder:
Thanks. But do you know if Vans has a problem with TCP or Decalin? I know guys are flying with it but guys are also flying with stuff that Vans won't approve in an S-LSA.
Thanks for your help.
EBB
 
RVBuilder:
Thanks. But do you know if Vans has a problem with TCP or Decalin? I know guys are flying with it but guys are also flying with stuff that Vans won't approve in an S-LSA.
Thanks for your help.
EBB

Mitch is not just one of the RV-12 guys. He is an employee of Van's Aircraft.
It is fully known, and expected, that Mitch is to use Decalin in N912VA, the blue RV-12 demonstrator owned by Van's Aircraft, so Yes Van's approves the use of Decalin.
It is not documented in the POH though.

Van's does not endorse or recommend the use of TCP (because of the additional chemicals it contains).
 
I used to use TCP in my "traditional" planes but have long switched to Decalin since it does the same but without the problems.
 
Leading

Hi John, nice talking the other night. Hope to see you in Page.

I thought I might jump in here a little.

Leading isn't a big problem with low hours it is more of a long term high hour problem. It's an accumulation problem. Rotax SB's no longer recommend 100LL because of the long term deposits and associated problems. Decalin and TCP are the two widely used lead scavengers. Decalin is less corrosive than TCP so it makes it easier to transport or carry with you. Many have switched to Decalin. It is 1/2 oz. per 10 gals. Running a higher rpm (5300-5500) can help keep some of the leading down. Neither of these two items keep all lead away it just helps some.
The Rotax engine can easily handle 91 oct with or without ethanol. Most fuel lines today can handle the ethanol since most of our autos use it and in several countries at twice the concentration than here in the US. So the deciding factor for many aircraft becomes the fuel tank material and construction.
The 600 hr. mark (pre mid 2006 engines or use of 100LL more than 30% of the time) for a gearbox inspection should not show any large deposits of lead during the inspection. The slipper clutch is supposed to be disassembled and cleaned of lead because right around 800 hours with no maint. any solid 100LL use and the clutch is trashed with lead and most likely isn't functional any more. Using unleaded auto fuel allows the inspection time to be a 1000 hrs. on the engines that qualify for that time period. Older engine's approximately Mid 2006 and before still have a 600 hr. inspection with or without leaded fuel. Lead also coats the tops of pistons, valves and sometimes causes valve guide issues, it settles in the oil tank and needs to be cleaned and can cause acid etching on the valves. The lead coating will combine with moisture like you may have in really humid climates and it gets drawn in as an engine sits and cools. I have seen several sets of valves with acid etching from this, but you'll never see it unless you dismantle your engine. I have seen other examples of this in Rotax classes that were taken out of other engines. Owners that use a steady diet of 100LL have had to have their valve guides reamed as early as 1000 hrs. It may or may not happen to you, but it does happen.

So 100LL leading is not a short term problem and not one the user may see until things get inspected or becomes an issue down the road.
Using 100LL also ups the maint. times like oil changes, gearbox inspections, ect... which increase ownership cost.
Your right that 91 oct. isn't at most airports and we all get stuck using 100LL when we travel, but the more you can stay away from it on a daily basis the better off your engine will be. It's like smoking cigarettes, it won't kill you or disease you today or after a pack or two, but long term use carries consequences and they will eventually show up.

If you're stuck using 100LL just make sure you keep up a good maintenance program to help cut down on its affects and build up. It can save you money in the long run.

I use 91oct. with ethanol because that's all I can get and only use 100LL with Decalin when I travel.

Your engine is like your body. It usually works good when it's young, but starts to have aches, pains and break down when it gets older so good maint. along the way can help greatly.
 
Thanks to Roger

Roger:
Thanks for that very complete and easy to understand discussion of 100LL and 91 Octane with ethanol.

Maybe, as the use of Rotax engines grows, there will be more airports that carry auto gas. I think that day is coming.
EBB
 
Don't hold your breath

Maybe, as the use of Rotax engines grows, there will be more airports that carry auto gas. I think that day is coming.
EBB

...at least where California is concerned. I recently spoke about this very subject with the owner of an FBO whose main business is fuel sales. Auto gas is subjected to an avalanche of additional regulation in its distribution, storage, and dispensing. Sellers must be specifically licensed, inspected, permitted for it. Storage tanks must be double contained and underground only. Vapor recovery systems, hazmat approved spillage mitigation, taxes, and on and on and on.

How many auto gas airplanes must be in service to tip the ROI into the green? Right now, that's a pretty good question.

It's enough to make a feller think about movin' ta Texas, wear big hats and talk diffurnt.
 
It would be nice if more airports carried 91 oct.even if it was in a truck. I did a survey at my airport of 280 aircraft. I got to about 2/3 of them. More than half of those said they would use 91 oct. Ethanol free if it was available. The airport authority wasn't interested. We would have had others from out lying airports come just to re-fuel on top of it. Right now the majority of us take it out in 5 gal containers. Some re-fuel from those and some dump it in fuel barrels. Some have regular fuel dollies on small trailers. For us it also saves about $2 a gallon, although I use it for the health and longevity of the engine.

I would bet the majority of the 912 users try to stay away from 100LL when possible. Some don't have much of a choice depending on where you live and fuel system construction.
 
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Rotax fluids

Rotax recently posted this SI.

Si-912-016 Rev6 "Selection of Suitable Operating Fluids for 912 ULS"
 
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