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Taking up smoking!

Caveman

Caveman

Well Known Member
I considered putting a smoke system in my airplane several times, but decided against it in the interest of adhering to my ?keep it simple, keep it light, & ?JUST GET ?ER DONE? philosophy. However, every time I see pictures and videos of smoking airplanes, or see one in the real life, I wish I had a smoke system. Recent posts on VAF resurrected the desire and I?ve wasted, hours and hours researching different systems and components. I was pulled over the edge a few nights ago when my spouse caught me browsing through a ?Jegs? catalog thinking about ordering some hoses.

The conversation went something like:
Her: It?s close to Christmas, you better not be ordering yourself anything, what are you looking for anyway?
Him: Hot rod parts!
Her: You don?t have a hotrod anymore? oh you mean the one in the hangar.
Him: Big smile? yep! I?m thinking about putting a smoke system on it. Cringing and waiting to get slapped upside the head and a butt chewing.
Her: Now that would be COOL!
Him thinking to himself: Man I love that woman!
Anyway, I have just about decided to bite the bullet and retrofit a system into my RV-7, but have a few questions for those that have gone before me:

1. Has the smoke oil permanently discolored the paint on your airplane? My airplane is painted white on bottom and I?d like to keep it looking nice. A friend who assisted Ag pilots as a flag man many years ago says it discolored their airplanes.
2. Do you have to clean the belly after every use? Or in a properly jetted system does all the oil burn and leave the airplane with a clean belly?
3. Are some of the different smoke oils worse than others for clean up? I?ve researched the recommended oils but never saw this addressed. I live way out in the boonies and getting Corvis or Canopus may be next to impossible. There is a Conoco Phillips oil distributor but I doubt they have much call f0r concrete form oil in a small town.
4. Are you still glad you installed your system and do you still use it often or did you use it a few times and now it is just in the way and another thing to remove during inspections?
5. To do this right I?d have to submit a new weight and balance and notify the FSDO and go back in to phase one for 5 hours. Correct?
6. Does the airplane need to be re-inspected or do I just make a notation in the airplane logs after the 5 hours of testing?
7. Is there a particular form or forms to submit to the FSDO?

Thank you who have posted links to how you devised your installations!
 
What i've sort of decided, so far, is that i'll make a tank that sits on the floor in front of the main spar. Quick-release fittings on the tank, so it can be removed when i'm just going cross-country. Put the pump either with the tank (better, then it comes out when the tank does) or firewall mount it (passenger side) with a hose through to the cowling area. Two switches, one on the panel to "enable" the smoke system, and another on the stick to actually turn it on and off. Practically speaking, it'll be two switches in series. I just don't want to hit the switch accidentally.

As for your questions, what I hear is that keeping the plane clean is a pipe dream. You'll always be cleaning the belly. How much it affects the paint will depend on how often you clean, and what you use for smoke oil. A good mix is apparently ATF + Jet A, but I haven't tried this yet myself.

I don't have a system in yet, but every time I fly I have occasion to use it as VCAS (visual collision avoidance system). Lots of students in the area, lots of blind pilots in the area (it seems). If I could lay down a half-mile strip of smoke i'm sure it would help them find me when the tower passes me as traffic.

In Canada, I don't believe this upgrade requires a re-inspection, sign-off, or test period. It doesn't qualify as a major modification. Don't know what's required in the US but i'd be surprised if they want to know about it.
 
Joe,

Smokin Airplanes is the place to go.
It is a ONE box shipment and fits like a glove.

I put one in my plane while building and helped a
RV 7A friend put his in.
You can pull it out any time you need for CC or
whatever. Total install time was 4 hours. The hardest
part of it was trying to figure out the run on the 5/8 inch
hose to the firewall.
Concrete release oil is what I use and it works great.
Order the 2 nozzle kit and 3.5 gal tank top mounted will
give you some more space. I use tie downs in the back
behind the pilot seat but you can put it behind the co's
seat and it will make it easier for the line run.

DO NOT USE ATF and JET A. Not good.

If you have the repairman certificate I do not think you
have to report to FSDO or fly off 5 hours. It is not
a major repair. You do need to check on this but someone
will set us right on this sight. MEL.

Give me a shout if you have other questions.

SMOKE ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Your Operating Limitations Rule!

Records show that your airplane was certificated in '08. Your operating limitations should allow you to do this yourself. The airplane will need to go back into phase I for a significant W&B change. It does not need to be reported to the FAA. You will, however, need to notify your FSDO for approval of your test area.
You do not need to possess the repairman certificate for this mod. The repairman certificate is only for signing off the annual condition inspection.
If you would like to talk further, feel free to give me a call. 972-784-7544
 
Thanks guys. I built the airplane and I do have the repairman's certificate, even though it isn't needed for this project. Mel, thanks for the clarification. I still have one foot in the certified world is seems. Bruce, I'm not smart enough to do it the easy way. I'll design a system similar to Tony Spicer's. I doubt I save much money, but half the fun is trying to come up with a system of my own. Snowflake, I like the idea of two switches, one to arm and another to activate. And I agree with the safety aspect of letting people know where you are. I don't mind cleaning the belly, I just hope I don't discolor the paint.

I may try and find an oil distributor in the OKC area. Anyone know of one there who stocks form oil?
 
W&B queston

Mel said:
........ The airplane will need to go back into phase I for a significant W&B change. .........
Click to expand...

Mel, if the tank was made to be removable with just a strap and a quick disconnect, would it then be like baggage, and not require a significant W&B change? :cool:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce
DO NOT USE ATF and JET A. Not good.


Snowflake said:
Could you elaborate? A sweeping generalization like that should come with some explanation... This combination is not uncommon for this purpose.
Click to expand...

Since I have used that combination, I will tell you WHY you do not want to use it.

Jet A will burn. You can light it with a match. ATF mixed with Jet A may lower the point that Jet A will start burning but ATF now days is mostly a synthetic and does not vaporize. Since it does not vaporize, it gets ALL OVER the bottom of your airplane. In other words, it makes a mess. Jet A by itself will smoke but the smoke is very poor quality. About 1/10 the smoke that you will get with diesel. Used motor oil also does not make good smoke oil even if you mix it with something that does smoke well. It like ATF mostly gets all over the bottom of the airplane. Why did I try Jet A mixed with ATF? I got the Jet A FREE and only had to pay for the ATF. At FREE, the Jet A in my humble opinion, is not worth it.

Real Smoke Oil (concrete form release oil) works best.

I would bet that NO ONE on a public forum will tell you to use anything but smoke oil. Diesel will work well making smoke, it does not HANG as well as smoke oil, and I would venture that no one will also come out in public and tell you to use it.
 
Caveman said:
...
2. Do you have to clean the belly after every use? Or in a properly jetted system does all the oil burn and leave the airplane with a clean belly?
3. Are some of the different smoke oils worse than others for clean up? I?ve researched the recommended oils but never saw this addressed. I live way out in the boonies and getting Corvis or Canopus may be next to impossible. There is a Conoco Phillips oil distributor but I doubt they have much call f0r concrete form oil in a small town.
Click to expand...
First off, the smoke oil doesn't burn, it just vaporizes. That's why there is so much on the belly. If you use diesel the flow rate will have to be much higher than with concrete oil for the same smoke, so the mess will be worse. Think about how you will top up the smoke tank - that's often when the most oil gets spilt.

Pete
 
penguin said:
First off, the smoke oil doesn't burn, it just vaporizes. That's why there is so much on the belly. If you use diesel the flow rate will have to be much higher than with concrete oil for the same smoke, so the mess will be worse. Think about how you will top up the smoke tank - that's often when the most oil gets spilt.

Pete
Click to expand...

I'm all ears Pete. How do you fill your tank? Is it removable?

Joe
 
removable

Hey Caveman.

I have a smokingairplanes system, and it is a great kit. I have it mounted as pictured below. It is easy to remove. I never take it out, except maybe for inspections. There's still plenty of luggage room. For me, I know I'd spill oil every time I filled it, so I added an external filler. That is da bomb.

I get residue on the belly when I use the smoke. It's not bad, and I don't think it will have any effect on paint. The smoke residue seems pretty clear.

The only challenge with the installation is routing the smoke line to the pipes...

web.jpg
 
dhall_polo said:
Hey Caveman.

I have a smokingairplanes system, and it is a great kit. I have it mounted as pictured below. It is easy to remove. I never take it out, except maybe for inspections. There's still plenty of luggage room. For me, I know I'd spill oil every time I filled it, so I added an external filler. That is da bomb.

I get residue on the belly when I use the smoke. It's not bad, and I don't think it will have any effect on paint. The smoke residue seems pretty clear.

The only challenge with the installation is routing the smoke line to the pipes...

web.jpg
Click to expand...

Don, I think that it was your airplane at the Hot Springs, S.D. fly-in that I kept drooling over. What a piece of art! Especially your fill cap installation! But, I about had a coronary when I saw the price of that filler cap system at ACS. I may bite the bullet or I may rig up a fill pump from some stuff I have laying around the farm. I am worried about cutting through the paint on my bird to install an oil fill cap. My tank and smoke pump have arrived. I have a few thoughts and your pictures are a big help. Thanks for your input. Scheming in progress...
 
Caveman said:
Don, I think that it was your airplane at the Hot Springs, S.D. fly-in that I kept drooling over. What a piece of art! Especially your fill cap installation! But, I about had a coronary when I saw the price of that filler cap system at ACS. I may bite the bullet or I may rig up a fill pump from some stuff I have laying around the farm. I am worried about cutting through the paint on my bird to install an oil fill cap. My tank and smoke pump have arrived. I have a few thoughts and your pictures are a big help. Thanks for your input. Scheming in progress...
Click to expand...

Thanks, that was me. I remember you and your lovely daughter as well. I hope my girls still want the right (or left) seat into the teens and beyond. We're lucky dads. Back when I built my -7, smokingairplanes did not have an external filler option, so I had to improvise. He now offers a filler kit option. I've spoken to other side by side guys with smoke, and they've all spilled smoke oil a time or two. The external fill is one of those very worthy problems to solve.

Good luck with the smoke.
 
Ron Lee said:
Joe, this review may help

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=492488#post492488
Click to expand...

I saw that thread Ron and appreciate you and Bob posting... well all except Bob's "Caveman comment":):) I was thinking of posting a picture of a 5 gallon oil bucket with the lid still on it setting in my copilot seat with a garden hose running to the firewall and using my oxygen tank piped up for pressurizing the bucket... that's how a real "Caveman" would do it! Then I thought it would be my luck that someone would take it serious and I'd get flamed to a crisp. All in good fun! Thanks for the help, guys!
 
Caveman said:
I'm all ears Pete. How do you fill your tank? Is it removable?

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe,

I don't have a smoke system in my RV - don't want the mess! The airplane that has smoke has a second pump to fill the tank, with a level switch to cut it off. It has an 8 gallon tank so the pump is quite large. With the smaller tanks a smaller pump can be used (such as the low pressure fuel pumps?) and still have a reasonable fill time. With a plastic tank in the baggage bay I probably would not bother with a level switch and just watch the level - or wait until something came out the vent. We used an air connector as the quick release for the fill pipe, and kept the pipe that goes into the oil can in 3 x plastic zip loc bags!

Pete
 
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penguin said:
Joe,

I don't have a smoke system in my RV - don't want the mess! The airplane that has smoke has a second pump to fill the tank, with a level switch to cut it off. It has an 8 gallon tank so the pump is quite large. With the smaller tanks a smaller pump can be used (such as the low pressure fuel pumps?) and still have a reasonable fill time. With a plastic tank in the baggage bay I probably would not bother with a level switch and just watch the level - or wait until something came out the vent. We used an air connector as the quick release for the fill pipe, and kept the pipe that goes into the oil can in 3 x plastic zip loc bags!

Pete
Click to expand...

Got it, Pete, thanks. That's similar to what I was thinking, but... install a tee in the smoke tank pump suction line with a couple of valves and quick connect going to a removable 3/8 fuel hose to suck from a 5 gallon can. The same valve and tee arrangement on the discharge side of the pump to route the liquid from the 5 gallon can back into the tank instead of to the injectors. It shouldn't weigh anymore than a large hose and fill cap. Stick a coffee can or bucket under the tank vent under the airplane and the only spillage in the airplane might be at the quick disconnect. Hmmm... what if I had the male part of the disconnect coupling poking through the bottom fuse skin, or better yet recessed in a port for better aerodynamics. Kind-a-like the single point fueling on a big plane. Pop out one of those button drain plugs, connect the fill hose, swap a couple of valves and flip the smoke pump switch and watch the tank fill... Caveman brain gears are turning. Maybe there's more than one way to skin a Saber Toothed Cat! :D
 
Caveman,

Glad you took my "so easy" comment in the fun spirit it was intended! I would have fallen of my chair laughing had you posted that bucket pic...even better if it included a hose you'd have to blow through that would siphon the smoke oil through a venturi to get it to the injectors...real Fred Flinstone set-up! :)

The filler pump you guys are discussing sounds pretty neat, for sure...as you work that through, please keep posting, and includes pics if possible. Sounds like that would be a cool set up.

I went with the external filler, and seeing Don's install was a big part of that inspiration (waazzuupp, Don!). Not trying to sound like too much of a salesman, but John will sell bits and pieces too. If you don't want to cut a hole, he also has a filler hose that can be used like a gas pump, with a suction hose dropped in a drum or gas can, and powered by a spare 12v battery. Good for home airport use. It's on his site under accessories. Nice thing about the ext fill kit is it works anywhere. Cutting the hole was a leap of faith...good thing my FFI buddy Goose Farrell was there to play Sam Kenniston, and say "do it...Do It...DO IT!"

Have fun with the install and look forward to seeing some Smokin' hot pics!

Hey, how 'bout some from you Don?!

Cheers,
Bob
 
... quick connect going to a removable 3/8 fuel hose to suck from a 5 gallon can.....Kind-a-like the single point fueling on a big plane....connect the fill hose, swap a couple of valves and flip the smoke pump switch and watch the tank fill...
Click to expand...

Here's a quick connect on the bottom of an Extra 300:



Don't need two pumps. What you want is a marine oil change pump and the same switch you use for flaps. Designed to pump oil, and they are reversible. I've bought 'em cheap as $100 on sale.

http://reversopumps.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=53811
 
Alternative Quick Disconnect

Looks like a standard compressed air hose fitting sticking out the bottom of the airplane. If you are looking for something that has built in valving that provides no fluid loss when connected or disconnected and is designed for applications like this, go to www.jiffy-tite.com and look at there motorsports line.These fittings are used by the military and professional motorsports like Indy. If you have questions call Duane LaFleur at 716-681-7200. Example pictured below. Brief video description.

http://performancebiz.com/videos/steve-zilig-michael-e-rayhill-duane-lafleur-with-jiffy-tite

2160622606.jpg
 
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