Van's Air Force
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Stock build...but, just gotta' have this mod
- Thread starter larrynew
- Start date
Caveman
Well Known Member
This may be an invitation to get flamed, but:
Probably depends on your mission, such as vfr / ifr.
If I had to narrow it to 3 KISS mods:
High quality air vents
Andair fuel Valve
Electric seat heat
In that order. I won't consider building again without those.
Other mods that I have and would do again if the budget would allow:
CS prop
Simple Glass Panel
A/P
Some that I did and enjoy but would reconsider based on finances:
El ignition
Non stock engine
Electric Elevator trim
Manual Aileron trim
Professional paint
Some I didn't do and don't regret it too much... yet:
Fancy tail wheel
Fancy Tail wheel link
Dual EI
IFR panel
two radios, (Have a handheld for B/U)
Long range tanks
Upgraded lights
Upgraded brakes
Fancy baggage and storage
High dollar interior
Spend your money on a good new, low time or overhauled engine. Put everything else second. Do not make any changes that might affect structural integrity. Clear any thing you have questions about with Vans and follow their advice. You have a good philosophy. Way to many people get caught up in customizing their airplanes and negatively affecting build time and resale value. Keeping it simple and getting it done beats fancy and never flying. A "by the plans, dead simple, flying RV" is still an awesome airplane and in many ways better than a heavy pig. A fancy RV that takes forever to build is not a flying RV at all. There is always someone who is going to have more money than me and can afford to go faster, have longer range, paint a prettier airplane, etc. My two cents.
I would first (in order of build) add the electric elevator trim. I don't even consider it an upgrade, but a low cost mandatory option. Lighter, simpler to install, and saves space in the cabin area. Only negative is cost, IMHO.
Second I would add an autopilot. Costly, but huge improvement in cross country ability. Perhaps the only upgrade that can save your bacon. Very good return on investment if it only saves your life once. Trio might be a good choice if cost is a factor. This is second as you need to add a servo during the wing build.
Lastly I would go with a low-cost glass panel. It may even save you some money, if you truly go with entry-level stuff. Less complexity, more usefulness. Ties in very well with option two.
These are just my ideas, YMMV. These are the three items I use the most and are difficult to add later. If comfort-related things are more important to you, they usually can be added later without too much work. I flew for a year without any upholstery! Good luck on your build. There are ways to save money (used engine, etc) that can more than pay for any upgrades you just can't live without.
Bob Kelly
Second I would add an autopilot. Costly, but huge improvement in cross country ability. Perhaps the only upgrade that can save your bacon. Very good return on investment if it only saves your life once. Trio might be a good choice if cost is a factor. This is second as you need to add a servo during the wing build.
Lastly I would go with a low-cost glass panel. It may even save you some money, if you truly go with entry-level stuff. Less complexity, more usefulness. Ties in very well with option two.
These are just my ideas, YMMV. These are the three items I use the most and are difficult to add later. If comfort-related things are more important to you, they usually can be added later without too much work. I flew for a year without any upholstery! Good luck on your build. There are ways to save money (used engine, etc) that can more than pay for any upgrades you just can't live without.
Bob Kelly
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
Constant speed prop was #1 on my list. Some people seem to do just fine without one. But for me, it's much improved takeoff performance..........as I live at 4600' msl to start with. Quiter in flight as I pull back the rpms, and "un-real" braking ability when back in the pattern.
L.Adamson --- RV6A
L.Adamson --- RV6A
If you don't know ...
The most important thing is to build the airplane as well as you can. The instrument panel and firewall forward are all "mods" as no two are exactly alike and you will have to do your brain work on those before completion and implement them as well as you can. If you don't have any "going in" needs then mods are not all that difficult to implement after completion. Paint has a tendency to freeze configuration and be susceptible to phase one test damage so I would delay that as well until you have the early flight bugs/manufacturing defects worked out of the plane.
Two structural modifications I made during the build that are not related to the instrument panel or firewall forward were 17 gallons of extra fuel tankage and Cockpit sealing.
I have incorporated an autopilot and many speed mods (picked up over 15 mph so far, at 6,000 ft density altitude, WOT, max RPM, leaned for max speed) after completing the airplane including painting. Speed is VERY important to me and the auto pilot I consider essential for long range travel and IFR after flying for a year without it. I have Tru Trak Pictorial Pilot and Altrac and swear by them (I couldn't care less that there are newer more capable models available).
Bob Axsom
The most important thing is to build the airplane as well as you can. The instrument panel and firewall forward are all "mods" as no two are exactly alike and you will have to do your brain work on those before completion and implement them as well as you can. If you don't have any "going in" needs then mods are not all that difficult to implement after completion. Paint has a tendency to freeze configuration and be susceptible to phase one test damage so I would delay that as well until you have the early flight bugs/manufacturing defects worked out of the plane.
Two structural modifications I made during the build that are not related to the instrument panel or firewall forward were 17 gallons of extra fuel tankage and Cockpit sealing.
I have incorporated an autopilot and many speed mods (picked up over 15 mph so far, at 6,000 ft density altitude, WOT, max RPM, leaned for max speed) after completing the airplane including painting. Speed is VERY important to me and the auto pilot I consider essential for long range travel and IFR after flying for a year without it. I have Tru Trak Pictorial Pilot and Altrac and swear by them (I couldn't care less that there are newer more capable models available).
Bob Axsom
Norman CYYJ
Well Known Member
5 point harness. To keep the lap belt from riding up on those rough days.
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
IMO, timing of the paint job is just one of those factors that depends on the situation & funds. Basically the stock configuration of an RV is so well tested, that you'll will not be making a lot of modifications after the first flight. My paint is so tough and flexible, that it has not mattered how many times I take the cowl or fairings off.
I painted all the parts at home with the wings & tail feathers off......before final assembly at the airport. Once it's all put together, you will not want to disassemble, so you're left with the option of possibly flying it somewhere else for a professional paint job. Our airport does not allow painting in the hangars.
Others will end up years before painting, because it's a big pain in the *** (rear) to stop flying and go through the hassle of a several month paint job & expense. In the meantime, their RV's look beautiful to them...........due to an imaginary paint job in their mind, but not so inspiring to others...
My paint materials came close to $2000 & it took several months of my time, including starting to paint at 5:00 AM before it got too hot, which would cause the paint to flash before it's time. You can easily spend $5000 - $8000 for a professional painter, or even more.
L.Adamson --- RV6A
Very easily. 22C was in the "more" category. We've decided to paint the next project -8 before it leaves the garage. Unpainted silver wings are blinding in the summer sun. I don't want to have to go through that again.
N941WR
Legacy Member
Good question
The first thing I would add is lightness. No joke, make your plane as light as you can! I can't stress this enough. That's why I was able to get such good performance out of my 135 hp O-290. One other thing to keep in mind while building, future maintenance. As I was building I kept thinking about how I was going to remove the part I was about to install at some future time. This makes working on the plane go much easier.
As for the list of three gotta' haves:
1) Andair fuel valve
2) Doug Bell (or comparable) tailwheel fork
3) Dual P-mags
Other things that I did that worked out great and I also recommend:
4) Dayton's Throttle Quadrant
5) EFIS & EMS - brand really doesn't matter
6) Auto Pilot - While building rivet in the pitch servo bracket from either Dynon or TT (they are the same) and run the wires.
7) Cover the top of your glair shield with a sheet of Velcro
8) Five point harness w/ a camloc fastener
9) Affordable Panels panel
Things I wish I had done while building:
1) Install an autopilot
2) Install tie down rings in the baggage compartment
The first thing I would add is lightness. No joke, make your plane as light as you can! I can't stress this enough. That's why I was able to get such good performance out of my 135 hp O-290. One other thing to keep in mind while building, future maintenance. As I was building I kept thinking about how I was going to remove the part I was about to install at some future time. This makes working on the plane go much easier.
As for the list of three gotta' haves:
1) Andair fuel valve
2) Doug Bell (or comparable) tailwheel fork
3) Dual P-mags
Other things that I did that worked out great and I also recommend:
4) Dayton's Throttle Quadrant
5) EFIS & EMS - brand really doesn't matter
6) Auto Pilot - While building rivet in the pitch servo bracket from either Dynon or TT (they are the same) and run the wires.
7) Cover the top of your glair shield with a sheet of Velcro
8) Five point harness w/ a camloc fastener
9) Affordable Panels panel
Things I wish I had done while building:
1) Install an autopilot
2) Install tie down rings in the baggage compartment
terrykohler
Well Known Member
Woulda, Shouda, Couda
Only item on my list is a taller canopy. I believe there's enough extra plexi available to make the tip-up 1-1.5 inches taller than plans (which I followed). I've got thin seat cushions and a thin headset band, but a little more clearance on top would be great, especially when it's turbulent enough to have to back down to Va. Most other "wants" are more easily fixed by throwing dollars at them.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
Only item on my list is a taller canopy. I believe there's enough extra plexi available to make the tip-up 1-1.5 inches taller than plans (which I followed). I've got thin seat cushions and a thin headset band, but a little more clearance on top would be great, especially when it's turbulent enough to have to back down to Va. Most other "wants" are more easily fixed by throwing dollars at them.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
flion
Well Known Member
It's an interesting question you've raised and I've noticed something in the replies: I don't consider everything mentioned to be a 'mod'. On the other hand, keeping with the philosophy of building the simplest RV out there, you would certainly want to avoid some of the options available stock, as well as true mods. Frankly, it'd be a fine plane with no mods or options at all; I think Van himself has amply demonstrated that. If that's your mission, be strong and avoid all temptation.
On the other hand, if you are fishing to find out the favorite mods out there with a view to what you should plan on for your aircraft, my advice would be to just look at them with a view toward how useful they are to you. For instance, I love my electric flaps and wouldn't want an RV without them but maybe you'd be happier with manual. More likely, people will disagree with me when I eschew the electric elevator trim, but I really love my manual system. I'm not really flaming Joe when I say I would never have heated seats in my RV; works for him but not for me. Favorites won't tell you what works for you.
Two mods that generate a lot of talk I haven't seen mentioned yet: Sika canopy and camlocks. I did both and I really am happy with them. I like the camlocks enough that if I bought a flying RV without them, I would rework the cowling to use them. Again, referring to the previous paragraph, others would disagree. As for the canopy, I am happy with the result and would do it again but I have seen a lot of nice non-Sikaflex installations so I am on the fence as to whether I would consider it an essential modification.
My current project is an over-the-top RV-10, so I might be a little biased toward modifications but I think if I were building a lean -7/7A it would go like this: -7A, no options from the back of the order form except the step kit, IO-360 with dual EI, CS Hartzell prop, and Milspec camlocs. I'd stick with Van's electrical diagram (with the additions necessary for the EI), use the pre-punched panel and instruments to match, and a minimal paint scheme. This fantasy plane would probably be a gas for most of the flying I do but it's not the plane I would (or did) build for myself. Bottom line: your behind is in the seat so you gotta decide what you do/don't have to have.
On the other hand, if you are fishing to find out the favorite mods out there with a view to what you should plan on for your aircraft, my advice would be to just look at them with a view toward how useful they are to you. For instance, I love my electric flaps and wouldn't want an RV without them but maybe you'd be happier with manual. More likely, people will disagree with me when I eschew the electric elevator trim, but I really love my manual system. I'm not really flaming Joe when I say I would never have heated seats in my RV; works for him but not for me. Favorites won't tell you what works for you.
Two mods that generate a lot of talk I haven't seen mentioned yet: Sika canopy and camlocks. I did both and I really am happy with them. I like the camlocks enough that if I bought a flying RV without them, I would rework the cowling to use them. Again, referring to the previous paragraph, others would disagree. As for the canopy, I am happy with the result and would do it again but I have seen a lot of nice non-Sikaflex installations so I am on the fence as to whether I would consider it an essential modification.
My current project is an over-the-top RV-10, so I might be a little biased toward modifications
but I think if I were building a lean -7/7A it would go like this: -7A, no options from the back of the order form except the step kit, IO-360 with dual EI, CS Hartzell prop, and Milspec camlocs. I'd stick with Van's electrical diagram (with the additions necessary for the EI), use the pre-punched panel and instruments to match, and a minimal paint scheme. This fantasy plane would probably be a gas for most of the flying I do but it's not the plane I would (or did) build for myself. Bottom line: your behind is in the seat so you gotta decide what you do/don't have to have.
Caveman
Well Known Member
I must agree with Patrick that heated seats don't make sense everywhere in the country. An added benefit though... today was terrible flying weather; it was +-30 deg. outside with winds 29 gusting to 30 and variable in direction. No doubt turbulence aloft would make flying no fun. So, I went to the hangar, hooked up the battery charger and turned on the seat heater. Then I climbed in, closed the canopy, fired up the panel and spent an hour and a half practicing emergency checklist procedures. I also "flew" the airplane in 496 simulator mode practicing sub marginal VFR approaches. I just like to run through emergency procedures on the ground once in awhile and I like to know the capabilities of the equipment. Don't get me wrong, I never plan on using some of these features, but they could be a life saver in bad weather and I'd rather figure out how to use them while on the ground, out of the cold gusty wind, in the comfort of my heated seats.
I forgot about some of the mods / options I installed.
I also installed the cam lock cowl fittings and really like them. I also have the better Lord motor mounts and 5 pt. Hooker harness.
I forgot about some of the mods / options I installed.
I also installed the cam lock cowl fittings and really like them. I also have the better Lord motor mounts and 5 pt. Hooker harness.
extras..
Items you need from Vans that are not supplied in the standard kit. A lot of the fancy extras can be installed after the airplane flies, but some cannot. These are the ones you need to think about as you build.
passenger side brake pedal kit....you dont want to do this after the build.
wing steps...especially on an A model
prefabricated screened fuel pick ups.....cheap and much better than stock
delux fuel caps...$100 dollars more but worth it.
Andair fuel valve......almost everyone thinks they are worth it.
conduit for later wire runs.....believe me its worth the effort.
Im sure there are others, but these come to mind...
Cheers..
Evan
Items you need from Vans that are not supplied in the standard kit. A lot of the fancy extras can be installed after the airplane flies, but some cannot. These are the ones you need to think about as you build.
passenger side brake pedal kit....you dont want to do this after the build.
wing steps...especially on an A model
prefabricated screened fuel pick ups.....cheap and much better than stock
delux fuel caps...$100 dollars more but worth it.
Andair fuel valve......almost everyone thinks they are worth it.
conduit for later wire runs.....believe me its worth the effort.
Im sure there are others, but these come to mind...
Cheers..
Evan
Flying Scotsman
Well Known Member
What do you mean by this? Having just ordered the engine and starting to plan for installation, and being new to engine stuff, is there a better option for the rubber isolators (I presume that's what we're talking about here) than what Van's offers? TIA for whatever info you can provide...
this was the result for "lord mount" in the search program. Happy Reading!
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/search.php?searchid=8349269
Caveman
Well Known Member
While building, I read accounts of more pronounced engine sag and more vibration with the stock mounts. I sprung for the Lords.
Smoke system
This is definetely an item NOT among the first people would buy to upgrade their plane, but IF you think you'd like smoke in your plane, then install it during the building process.
I didn't consider smoke until AFTER my -7 had flown for a few hours and bought the Smoking Airplane system: http://www.smokingairplanes.com/
After looking through the installation instructions, I've decided to install it in my second -7 instead. It'll be MUCH easier to install it during construction rather than in a flying plane.
Once again: this is not a "must have" mod, and definetely not a KISS-thing, but if you like one, then it's YOUR plane...
This is definetely an item NOT among the first people would buy to upgrade their plane, but IF you think you'd like smoke in your plane, then install it during the building process.
I didn't consider smoke until AFTER my -7 had flown for a few hours and bought the Smoking Airplane system: http://www.smokingairplanes.com/
After looking through the installation instructions, I've decided to install it in my second -7 instead. It'll be MUCH easier to install it during construction rather than in a flying plane.
Once again: this is not a "must have" mod, and definetely not a KISS-thing, but if you like one, then it's YOUR plane...
Why is that? What is wrong with the stock Van's fuel valve?
pierre smith
Well Known Member
It looks like it was made in China...
....from recycled beer cans, compared to the upscale Andair.
That said, I have Van's in both my -6A and my -10. Thousands of RV's out there flying with Van's fuel valves.
Best,
....from recycled beer cans, compared to the upscale Andair.
That said, I have Van's in both my -6A and my -10. Thousands of RV's out there flying with Van's fuel valves.
Best,
rocketbob
Well Known Member
How about this displacing your desire to accessorize into something more unique: come up with some sort of gadget, tweak, or idea that's original and no RV builder has yet thought of? It seems today in the landscape of cookie-cutter kitplanes this rarely happens anymore.
To improve the stock valve, remove the spring and cut one loop off of it. That's all it takes to make it a nice valve to use.
When you have it apart, just look and see how simple it is made. For me, an AndAir fuel valve is a big waste of money for what it has to do......
Caveman
Well Known Member
And so it appears...
that mods / slash options / slash upgrades are a purely personal choice that make our airplanes one of a kind.
Two options that I left out of my 7, that many would probably not be without are co-pilot brakes, and a parking brake. Some people may believe that their non existence de-values the airplane. To me they add weight, complexity, build cost, & build time. They add potential leak points for brake fluid. I'm going to carry a set of chocks with or without the parking brake and I have a tail dragger and did not want to chance a passenger / co-pilot accidently applying brakes. Another item that I left out that many wouldn't be without is a full interior package.
It would be interesting to see how a fully decked out, constant speed, luxury airplane with all the bells and whistles, fully ifr triple glass panel airplane compares in weight and performance to a stripped utilitarian version built as Van designed them.
I believe it also depends on the model you are building. I certainly wouldn't add much to an RV-3 but an RV-10 would be a different ball game. I wouldn't be as concerned with weight on an RV-9 as they are non aerobatic.
The geographical area you do most of your flying in will influence the perceived value of some options. If you live in the mountains or fly from a short strip, a c.s. prop may be a no brainer. It may make brake upgrades a more important choice. If you live in cold climates, seat heaters, dual muffs, insulation and other comfort mods may be more important.
Define your mission, evaluate your personal tastes, make the choices fit your budget and have at it. My point of view.
that mods / slash options / slash upgrades are a purely personal choice that make our airplanes one of a kind.
Two options that I left out of my 7, that many would probably not be without are co-pilot brakes, and a parking brake. Some people may believe that their non existence de-values the airplane. To me they add weight, complexity, build cost, & build time. They add potential leak points for brake fluid. I'm going to carry a set of chocks with or without the parking brake and I have a tail dragger and did not want to chance a passenger / co-pilot accidently applying brakes. Another item that I left out that many wouldn't be without is a full interior package.
It would be interesting to see how a fully decked out, constant speed, luxury airplane with all the bells and whistles, fully ifr triple glass panel airplane compares in weight and performance to a stripped utilitarian version built as Van designed them.
I believe it also depends on the model you are building. I certainly wouldn't add much to an RV-3 but an RV-10 would be a different ball game. I wouldn't be as concerned with weight on an RV-9 as they are non aerobatic.
The geographical area you do most of your flying in will influence the perceived value of some options. If you live in the mountains or fly from a short strip, a c.s. prop may be a no brainer. It may make brake upgrades a more important choice. If you live in cold climates, seat heaters, dual muffs, insulation and other comfort mods may be more important.
Define your mission, evaluate your personal tastes, make the choices fit your budget and have at it. My point of view.
sglynn
Well Known Member
Options
I'm in the middle of build and these are the options I've done and like at this point. They are, in no particular order:
1) at least one flop tube in tanks
2) nicer fuel tank caps from Van's rather than stock
3) removable floors both seats and cargo area
4) electric trim all around
5) capacitance fuel level system
5) Long bolts on the brake pedals
6) fairings where rudder cables emerge from fuselage at tail
7) steps both side (but I really only wanted one on passenger side)
8) brakes only on pilot. Copilot brakes on my Cherokee are liability
9) fuel injected engine
10) Andair Fuel Valve
11) Andair fuel pump and filter
12) Not constant speed prop - too much money
13) EFIS, AP, IFR-GPS
14) fuel return lines, but now I don't think they are needed
15) upgraded fresh air vents
Have Fun
I'm in the middle of build and these are the options I've done and like at this point. They are, in no particular order:
1) at least one flop tube in tanks
2) nicer fuel tank caps from Van's rather than stock
3) removable floors both seats and cargo area
4) electric trim all around
5) capacitance fuel level system
5) Long bolts on the brake pedals
6) fairings where rudder cables emerge from fuselage at tail
7) steps both side (but I really only wanted one on passenger side)
8) brakes only on pilot. Copilot brakes on my Cherokee are liability
9) fuel injected engine
10) Andair Fuel Valve
11) Andair fuel pump and filter
12) Not constant speed prop - too much money
13) EFIS, AP, IFR-GPS
14) fuel return lines, but now I don't think they are needed
15) upgraded fresh air vents
Have Fun
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Options
How about inspection panels in the front deck in front of the windshield, especially if you also want shelves above the rudder pedals for avionics boxes. The inspection panels (four !) make it a LOT easier to maintain the avionics, especially when/if radio stock changes are performed.
Email me directly ( [email protected] )if you want pictures of this mod.....
How about inspection panels in the front deck in front of the windshield, especially if you also want shelves above the rudder pedals for avionics boxes. The inspection panels (four !) make it a LOT easier to maintain the avionics, especially when/if radio stock changes are performed.
Email me directly ( [email protected] )if you want pictures of this mod.....
Havent seen this mentioned yet, so I'll toss it into the ring...
Electrical system wiring per Bob Nuckoll's Z-13/8 figure
erich
Electrical system wiring per Bob Nuckoll's Z-13/8 figure
erich
David-aviator
Well Known Member
All this stuff adds up to longer build time, more expense, and less flying at the other end. We have a finite amount of time on this planet, guaranteed. Think about it.
If building is your passion, have at it (getting all the screw heads aligned, etc), but if flying is the objective, build it to plan and it will fly sooner than later.
KISS!
If building is your passion, have at it (getting all the screw heads aligned, etc), but if flying is the objective, build it to plan and it will fly sooner than later.
KISS!
bkilby
Well Known Member
Has anyone built aluminum compartments that bolt onto the seat back in the side by sides? I was thinking it would be pretty cool to make something that would mount behind the seat back, fit into the angle behind the seat, so that one could store a few tools, and quart of oil, and have a lid that closes and locks securely.
Brantel
Well Known Member
I have seen some bags marketed that are made to fit in there. I can't remember where or when though...
hydroguy2
Well Known Member
Greg Arehart
Well Known Member
I built a shelf about 12" wide x 18" long that sits just below the level of the crossbar behind the seats. It fits just behind the passenger seat, and is attached to the crossbar and baggage bulkhead using hinges (pull the pins at both ends to remove the shelf). It is very useful to store small items (like O2 cannula, Flightguide, etc.) where they are easily reached in flight rather than having to reach into the bottom of the baggage compartment.
greg
greg
hydroguy2
Well Known Member
Greg, ya got any pics of your shelf? I'd be interested in seeing them
email me here: [email protected]
email me here: [email protected]
"Behind the seat" boxes
Brian,
Was about to pitch some old issues of the "RVator" when I noticed a short article in the 2005 (Second Issue) about a North Carolina 6A builder (Noel Falwell) who had done this. Didn't have contact info listed.
Brian,
Was about to pitch some old issues of the "RVator" when I noticed a short article in the 2005 (Second Issue) about a North Carolina 6A builder (Noel Falwell) who had done this. Didn't have contact info listed.
Yes, I did fabricate a "fly-away" box...
...and the article was published in the RVator some years ago. The article and pictures are in several issues of "xx Years of the RVator", with the latest being on pages 109/110 of "27 Years of ..."
The pictures I have are on old-school photographic film. I did not enter the digital age until recently, so am not able to post pictures.
In essence, the aluminum box resembles what is now available in cloth from the Bison Bag folks. The box attaches to hinge segments behind the pilots seat (RV-6A), and in front of the flap bar weldment. It can be installed and removed easily, and can hold 4qts of oil and some tools. It is accessed by flopping the pilots seat forward.
...and the article was published in the RVator some years ago. The article and pictures are in several issues of "xx Years of the RVator", with the latest being on pages 109/110 of "27 Years of ..."
The pictures I have are on old-school photographic film. I did not enter the digital age until recently, so am not able to post pictures.
In essence, the aluminum box resembles what is now available in cloth from the Bison Bag folks. The box attaches to hinge segments behind the pilots seat (RV-6A), and in front of the flap bar weldment. It can be installed and removed easily, and can hold 4qts of oil and some tools. It is accessed by flopping the pilots seat forward.
