South Texas RV Aerobatic Lesson?

[jjhoneck]

Mary and I are comfortable in the -8A now, and are ready to expand the envelope a bit.

Can anyone recommend an experienced RV-8 driver down this-away that could walk us through some basic aerobatics? I suppose we could just go out with the book and start playing around (and I've done SOME of that), but some instruction couldn't hurt.

Thanks!

 

[Ironflight]

I'd strongly recomend against teaching yourself aerobatics in an RV if you don't have aerobatic experince - you can get goign awfully fast on the downline if you fall out of a simple roll (and this happens when folks are trying to learn it themself).

Fortunately, you can try Harvey-Rihn at LaPorte - not far up the coast, and instruction from some good folks.

 

[sandifer]

I'd strongly recomend against teaching yourself aerobatics in an RV if you don't have aerobatic experince - you can get goign awfully fast on the downline if you fall out of a simple roll (and this happens when folks are trying to learn it themself).

Fortunately, you can try Harvey-Rihn at LaPorte - not far up the coast, and instruction from some good folks.

+1. What's the old saying...something about having a fool for an instructor.

IMO, your aerobatic training doesn't even need to be done in an RV. Do you have dual controls in your RV? Throttle is a very important flight control for the aerobatic instructor to have when teaching a newbie. A Super Decathlon is not far off from the handling of the RV-8, and as long as you obtain some basic training and comfort with the basic maneuvers, you can do them yourself in the RV as long as you mentally "brief" yourself of the quicker speed build-up in the RV compared to other types. Don't be afraid to pull! RV wings have a lot of induced drag when loaded with G, and you can easily keep the airspeed down by pulling at least 4.5G or so. But you can also do the basic maneuvers at no more than 3G. But if helps to have some training so that you can have the confidence to NOT be tentative. It really takes very little skill and experience to be safe with the basic maneuvers. Now doing the maneuvers with a high level of precision...that's another story.

Which brings up my last point - IMO, anything worth doing is worth doing well. A little initial expert instruction will get you going with good techniques so that the rule of primacy does not leave you with bad habits that are hard to break. And pick up Alan Cassidy's book 'Better Aerobatics'. Don't bother buying any other ones. It is THE best book out there. Applies to all skill levels from beginner level recreational pilots to Unlimited level competition pilots.

You can't do better than Debby Rihn-Harvey, but below are some operators that IAC mantains. They may not all currently be in operation. But it's a start.

http://www.iacusn.org/schools/#state_TX_

 

[jjhoneck]

+1. What's the old saying...something about having a fool for an instructor.

IMO, your aerobatic training doesn't even need to be done in an RV. Do you have dual controls in your RV? Throttle is a very important flight control for the aerobatic instructor to have when teaching a newbie. A Super Decathlon is not far off from the handling of the RV-8, and as long as you obtain some basic training and comfort with the basic maneuvers, you can do them yourself in the RV as long as you mentally "brief" yourself of the quicker speed build-up in the RV compared to other types. Don't be afraid to pull! RV wings have a lot of induced drag when loaded with G, and you can easily keep the airspeed down by pulling at least 4.5G or so. But you can also do the basic maneuvers at no more than 3G. But if helps to have some training so that you can have the confidence to NOT be tentative. It really takes very little skill and experience to be safe with the basic maneuvers. Now doing the maneuvers with a high level of precision...that's another story.

Which brings up my last point - IMO, anything worth doing is worth doing well. A little initial expert instruction will get you going with good techniques so that the rule of primacy does not leave you with bad habits that are hard to break. And pick up Alan Cassidy's book 'Better Aerobatics'. Don't bother buying any other ones. It is THE best book out there. Applies to all skill levels from beginner level recreational pilots to Unlimited level competition pilots.

You can't do better than Debby Rihn-Harvey, but below are some operators that IAC mantains. They may not all currently be in operation. But it's a start.

http://www.iacusn.org/schools/#state_TX_

Thanks for the info, all!

Yep, our -8A has dual controls -- stick, throttle and rudder pedals in the back hole. I do not plan on doing competition aerobatics, or anything of that nature -- but I would like to be able to do the occasional roll or loop, just for fun.

I've done some basic aerobatics in a Decathlon, years ago, and I've done SOME aerobatics in an RV-8, but my wife (also a pilot) is a voice of caution that I tend to listen to -- especially since she can whack me in the back of the head pretty much anytime we're flying.

I want to do the maneuvers not just in an -8, but in MY -8. I want to be 100% comfortable, and not fearful, of the maneuvers. To that end, I want an hour of instruction, maybe two. Anything beyond that would be fun, but overkill for my purposes.

I will call those folks in Laporte. Thanks again!

 

[Ironflight]

Great attitude Jay - you'll do fine!

One thing to note is the weight and balance. Remember that the aerobatic gross is much lower than the normal gross. It can be VERY difficult to fit two people and parachutes in with sufficient fuel. Most people cheat, which isn't a great idea - you can cheat the rules, but not the laws of physics.

I pretty much never do two-up acro because I don't keep two parachutes legally packed and it is hard to fit either of our two-seat planes under the weight limits with two.

If you find an instructor who will go do acro with you over gross or without chutes....you might question their judgement about other things!

 

[Chris Hill]

If you want to meet at KHDO sometime, we can go through all of the gentle mans aerobatics you can stand. I fly for free cause its fun. PM me if you want to go fly

 

[Andy Hill]

To that end, I want an hour of instruction, maybe two. Anything beyond that would be fun, but overkill for my purposes.

It's not the "aerobatics" that need instruction, but the "not aerobatics" i.e. when things go wrong. That is what needs an hour or 2 or more until you and an instructor are happy with your ability to recognose when it is going wrong, and take the correct recovery action.

The key elements to me are:

1. Enter, hold, recover with Min Ht Loss from full spin (say 2-3 turns)
2. Recognose and Recover from Incipient Spin
3. Recognise and correctly recover from "Unusual Positions" which tend to be one of "Nose High Low Speed", "Nose Low High Speed" and "Vertical Recovery"

In an RV the real danger is the Nose Low area, both when things go wrong, and in other areas where poor awareness is shown of a nose low attitude and the speed is rapidly increasing - the latter often shown in a Barrel Roll when the Inverted position is not achieved prior the nose cutting the horizon.

Once you have the above squared away, which might take an hour if you have done it all before and sharp, or might take 5+ hours for someone who has never seen it, and has trouble getting the idea.

As above, the RV is not really the best machine to learn on, but does need a short final convex to appreciate the speed issue.

Here in the UK we do not have the legal parachute requirement, so I will not over-emphasise that - especially since plenty have killed themselves in RVs with aeros going wrong (usually low alt as well), but nobody AFAIK has successfully jumped out of one using a chute?

 

[sandifer]

I want to be 100% comfortable, and not fearful, of the maneuvers. To that end, I want an hour of instruction, maybe two. Anything beyond that would be fun, but overkill for my purposes.

Jay, do you already have significant spin experience? What about aerobatic spin training? Part of any aerobatic training curriculum should include spin training. There are some basic maneuvers where spins can be encountered if hamfisted - immelmans and hammerheads. If you're going to be doing acro, you should be perfectly comfortable and competent with spin recovery in your airplane. Aerobatic spin training that includes normal, accelerated, crossover, and flat spins from both upright and inverted is also eye-opening and worth doing. You will need something like a Pitts to do this, though. As Andy mentions, instruction is first and foremost about avoiding (and recovering) emergency situations. Technique is a secondary aspect of the training. And remember, lots of people who became acro junkies started out thinking they just want to learn to do "some loops and rolls".