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So did Van have anything to say about the Rotax availability?

T

Threetracker

Active Member
I am still somewhat amazed that the 'crowd of engine ready' 12 owners are being so patient about just when their powerplant and propeller is going to be ready. Did anyone who was at Oshkosh ask that question?

Jay Sluiter
N124CS...RV-12 glider
 
Engine Ready

I did ask one of Van's folks at OSH what they expected the firewall forward - engine and all - to cost, and was told that as a guess it would probably be
"A little north of 23K" it was just his estimate but it gives some idea of what it might come out to be.
 
Kits

Van's reported yesterday that there are about 17 of us fully paid and waiting for Avionics kit shipment and that this was delayed by a QA problem on the power panel that had to be reworked before Darrel could make up our kits and both Darrel and Stine Air went to OSH instead of working on the kits. They also said that Darrel was the holdup on the engine kits which should come soon, whatever that works out to.

I am sure I know what the vote would be here on Darrel's attendance at OSH or getting his work done.

Best regards,
Vern
 
There is alot of work going on "behind the scenes" I'm sure and OSH kinda gets in the way. I'm just looking forward to finishing the -12 this fall sometime when the weather is cooler. Lots to do until then.
 
Powerplant

Of course the powerplant won't run without fuel and we can't put the fuel tank in until the glass/plastic issue is solved so hopefully those tests are proceding well...wonder what's in "Blue 2"?
 
I've seen a few posts wondering how the sight glass issue was addressed in "New Blue". Well, I received the notification about the impending change less than 24 hours before the rest of RV-12 gang did. This was after my tank was complete, tested and painted. After a consultation with Ken Kreuger, we decided to leave it as is for the sake of expediency inasmuch as it took over a year for the red 12 to show any signs of crazing. Once the permanent fix is in place, I will make the alteration to Blue's tank.

Mitch Lock
 
My vote would be to have all of the Van's folks at OSH. It was sure nice to talk face to face with Van, Scott, Daryl, Ken S., Ken K., Mike Seager, and the rest of the gang. I think Vern meant to say the same!!

Thanks Scott!!
 
Hi Scott,

I made no indication about Daryl being on vacation, I am sure he did his job for the team to sell more kits, as I have had the experience of working many large airshows including OSH I know how hard the work is for most who have to do it.

I would have preferred that he stayed in Oregon and got on with the kits that are already sold and paid for, and then got the firewall forward kit done so that the fifty or so of us who are ready for them can finish our aircraft and get to experience a big Van's first flight smile.

It's just priorities on Van's part.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Part of the design process...

vernhendershott said:
snip….Van's reported yesterday that there are about 17 of us fully paid and waiting for Avionics kit shipment and that this was delayed by a QA problem on the power panel that had to be reworked before Darrel could make up our kits and both Darrel and Stine Air went to OSH instead of working on the kits. They also said that Darrel was the holdup on the engine kits which should come soon, whatever that works out to. ​


I am sure I know what the vote would be here on Darrel's attendance at OSH or getting his work done.​


snip….I would have preferred that he stayed in Oregon and got on with the kits that are already sold and paid for, and then got the firewall forward kit done so that the fifty or so of us who are ready for them can finish our aircraft and get to experience a big Van's first flight smile.​


It's just priorities on Van's part.​
Click to expand...

Hi Vern,

Having spent five of the past ten days eating breakfast and dinner with Daryl and the gang from Van’s, as well as rooming with them in the dorms, I think I can say with 100% certainty that whether Daryl (and the entire gang at Van’s for that matter) stayed in Oregon last week you would still not see the avionics kits going out for another week or so. Daryl is simply the coordination point in this one process and he is waiting on parts and the actions of others before he can ship them. Same for the engines, it is Van’s waiting on Rotax.

I know there is an ~165-page maintenance manual that comes with the RV-12 as well as loads of documentation generated to satisfy LSA/ELSA compliance. Any single change in one component results in work from nearly a dozen people (people that didn’t attend OSH). The upside of all this on the -12 is that if you build it per the plans, your POH is already done (and accurate). Daryl’s just the point guy for the process on this one thing, and over a few beers he walked me through the flowchart of what happens when a small change is required, and it’s staggering.

The biggest reason these small changes need to be made, of course, is that there are only (2) flying RV-12s on planet Earth. They discover tweaks needing to be made to the design as they get more time on them, and that’s just part of the design process.

Paraphrasing Frank the Tank, "DARYL, YOU'RE MY BOY!!!!

Doug Reeves
 
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Doug is right on! You guys just don't understand the documentation required for E-LSA. Any little change has to be carefully coordinated throughout all documentation. And you know that if Van's does it, it will be done right!
It's quite different from amateur-built.
 
The difference is teh RV-12 is basically a production aircraft with the added caveat that each one will actually be built by different people. Imagine if you needed to make 1000 TV sets that needed to all be exactly alike from a construction standpoint but that you were going to manufacture them in 1000 different production facilities all staffed with employees that had never assembled this TV set before, and in most cases any other TV for that matter.

Toss in that you need traceability for each component so that, should an issue arise you can determine root cause such that every other like article can be provided with the appropriate "corrective action" to insure compliance.

It would actually be easier if Van's built them all themselves. As all involved: Van's, component suppliers, the FAA, the builders are all plowing new ground here on a design that is still in first article state of development. Doesn't make those waitign for the next step any less impatient but at least provides context.

What the LSA concept represents is frankly in some ways more complex than what "normal" certified aircraft have to go through as, at least in certified aircraft, the rules and process are well understood.

I'd like to see the RV-12 become the replacement for the C-152 - there really isn't a viable alternative out there better suited IMHO.
 
If I were building an RV-12, I would rather have the kit done well, rather than done fast. I'm sure Van's wants the RV-12 on the market as soon as possible as long as it meets their high standards.

Van's is a solid company that I want around for a long time. My -7 is a slow build and I want the remaining kits available when I'm ready.

I want the RV-12 to be a very successful kit so the company remains a financially sound, well run company, able to support all of the various models that we are all building.

A little patience will go a long way toward having a well proven and engineered airplane that will be well recieved by the flying public. That way all of us building an RV win as does Van's.
 
Hi Doug,

I am glad you had a great week with the Van's group, I do understand that Van's has to be there in OSH and how important marketing is to their health and survival. Yes we all do love Van's and as a kit owner it is in my and all of our interest for them to continue to prosper.

I am also sure that many on this list at one time or another worked in the aviation big leagues (Part 121 airlines) and well understand the paper work issues at hand for Van's, it is apparent that Van's did not grasp the scope of the issue as evidenced by their drawing revision problems, or lack of ability to set a standard process and then follow it. This is understandable as they have never had to do this with the kind of precision required in the ELSA program. I am sure glad I do not have to manage it as it is hard and involved. That does not mean it does not have to be done and it must be done right, that is the way Van's works and they will get there one day soon.

Keep in mind that we received a stop work order on our fuel tanks some time ago and have not received any further information from Van's on what they are doing or when we may be able to proceed.

We purchased avionics kits and were told that they would ship in two to three weeks. We have not received any further communications from them, so I called after OSH and ask what was happing and reported same to the group as I was told.

We have had several rumors that were said to have come from Van's on the engine kits and all have expired with the kit not yet on offer so we must wait.

Perhaps if Van's found it in their interest to communicate a little more with us then the frustration as seen by some might not look as much like frustration as just lack of information.

Doug, you are a very good communicator and provide a great service to Van's by providing this web site to take the load off of them to some extent. As you are good friends with them perhaps you may be able to provide them with some guidance or assistance on the need for and how to provide communications to customers when things are not going just as Van's planned.

Again, Van's is a great company and the RV-12 is going to be a fine aircraft, some of us would hope that the avionics kits will ship soon and that the engine kits will be made available as soon as possible. It would seem that now that the certification work is done on both the SLSA and the ELSA that they should be done with the paper work (yes, I know there are always revisions and corrections to deal with) and they should only need to gather up the parts and send them.

You mentioned a possible problem with Rotax, if so this would be sad news, but I understood from other posts to this list that there were a good number of engines sitting at Van's facility waiting the rest of the kit. I have not been there in the last several months so I can not say what is or is not there.

Thank for all your hard work on this web site it is a very fine example of what the Internet can do for all of us, it has sure made the assembly of my RV-12 a better process being able to learn from other peoples discovery of problems and solutions.

Best regards,
Vern
 
vernhendershott said:
quote shortened to get to the point....

Keep in mind that we received a stop work order on our fuel tanks some time ago and have not received any further information from Van's on what they are doing or when we may be able to proceed.

We purchased avionics kits and were told that they would ship in two to three weeks. We have not received any further communications from them, so I called after OSH and ask what was happing and reported same to the group as I was told.

We have had several rumors that were said to have come from Van's on the engine kits and all have expired with the kit not yet on offer so we must wait.

Perhaps if Van's found it in their interest to communicate a little more with us then the frustration as seen by some might not look as much like frustration as just lack of information.
Click to expand...

Happily, I never called Van's for info, during the total duration of my project.
And it only took 12 years...

Relax... :D

L.Adamson
 
L.Adamson said:
Happily, I never called Van's for info, during the total duration of my project.
And it only took 12 years...

Relax... :D

L.Adamson
Click to expand...

Larry makes a good point. Van's used to sell 12 year airplanes, then 4 year quick-builds, now two-year (or less) ELSA's. Everything comes faster...for everyone involved. Lots of learning curves to adjust to. No right, no wrong...I truly believe everyone is in the book...are they all keeping up with the pages...they're turning pretty fast on this one. Vern's not wrong or even unreasonable. Sounds like he's putting things together faster than expected...and ready for more. Good problem for a supplier to have. Especially these days.
 
I also want to agree that "Perhaps if Van's found it in their interest to communicate a little more with us then the frustration as seen by some might not look as much like frustration as just lack of information."

I have had my Empennage kit, Wing Kit, Fuselage kit and finishing kit on order for two months and found out there was only one spar then evidently they sold my Empennage Kit before Partain could pick it up. However the good news is Tony said he should be able to pick up the 4 kits Friday.

I bought all available kits before inflation hits the USA.

Not Mad just complaining and hoping all will work out.
 
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