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SkyView in the RV-12

E

E. D. Eliot

Well Known Member
From what I can see from the advertisements, I really WANT a Dynon SkyView in my RV-12. Since I am a long way from completion, I hope that Van's will see the advantages of this new piece of electronics and offer it as an 'optional' add on.

To me, this looks like a great piece of equipment that fits my mission profile exactly. An big step towards flight safety. Thanks, Dynon.
 
I'm still tossing the 9 or 12 up but I'd want 2 SkyViews in either panel...with AP of course :D
 
Don't hold your breath

I was holding off ordering my avionics kit. I called Van's last week and spoke to them on another issue, and asked them about the new Dynon. I was told that they don't have any plans in the works to change the GPS or Dynon units. They are working on other things such as wheel pants etc. Since either would require redesigning the entire panel, it is a very low priority.
 
Mark Henderson said:
I was holding off ordering my avionics kit. I called Van's last week and spoke to them on another issue, and asked them about the new Dynon. I was told that they don't have any plans in the works to change the GPS or Dynon units. They are working on other things such as wheel pants etc. Since either would require redesigning the entire panel, it is a very low priority.
Click to expand...

If enough customer interest was put on Van's it would probably have an impact. They need to provide products that serve the wants of their buyers. I don't know what number of requests it would take, but it would have to make economic sense for them as well.
 
AEA said:
If enough customer interest was put on Van's it would probably have an impact. They need to provide products that serve the wants of their buyers. I don't know what number of requests it would take, but it would have to make economic sense for them as well.
Click to expand...

I am building my RV12 AB. I have a complete skyview 7" system on order and will add A/P functions when available. Note Dynon servos must be firmware version 5.2 (available 12/1/09) to work properly with new skyview. eventually i will add ADSB capability when Dynon offers a transceiver. the long term capabilities of this system convinced me to order this system.
 
Skyview

Yes The Dynon Skyview is the way to go for sure I will be holding off untill it is offered as an Aternative for sure ...!
 
I don't understand...

Sky View is for hard IFR, isn't it? The RV-12 is a VFR plane, right? I know that the terrain displays are beautiful, but if you are VFR shouldn't you be looking at the terrain through the windscreen? Why pay the extra money for advanced equipment in a VFR RV-12? The current Dynon setup seems perfectly suited to the mission.
It would be great in the RV-9 or 10.
What I would like is the GTX 330 transponder so you could get TIS on the Garmin 496. Now that would be worth the extra bucks, at least in the area that I fly.

Tony
 
GTX-330

Tony_T said:
Sky View is for hard IFR, isn't it? The RV-12 is a VFR plane, right? I know that the terrain displays are beautiful, but if you are VFR shouldn't you be looking at the terrain through the windscreen? Why pay the extra money for advanced equipment in a VFR RV-12? The current Dynon setup seems perfectly suited to the mission.
It would be great in the RV-9 or 10.
What I would like is the GTX 330 transponder so you could get TIS on the Garmin 496. Now that would be worth the extra bucks, at least in the area that I fly.

Tony
Click to expand...

I was interested in the GTX-330 as well for TIS/ADS-B, but I looked at the install manuals and the wiring is nothing alike. So I don't see it ever being offered as an option.

There are some passive systems (Zoan) that may be be a better fit for VFR flying and lower in price.
 
Tony is Right

The 12 is a VFR plane. And the 496 is the best thing going to keep you VFR on the market. Skyview is neat but a different mission. I too would love to have TIS capability...the DFW area is a busy one. I don't see Van ever putting in the ELSA.
 
Skyview

Vans may Not install it but I Sure would with all its advantages & furture upgrades becomming availible it is an all in one package..!
 
If the 12 is for VFR, then why is Van offering the external lights option? I say the 12 is for whatever suits you; VFR or IFR. I really like the looks of the Skyview and if I decide on the 12, I'll think very seriously about the Skyview.
 
diamond said:
If the 12 is for VFR, then why is Van offering the external lights option? I say the 12 is for whatever suits you; VFR or IFR. I really like the looks of the Skyview and if I decide on the 12, I'll think very seriously about the Skyview.
Click to expand...

Well, not to split hairs, but the lights are required for night VFR, I believe, not just IFR flight. Night flying may not be allowed on a sport pilot license, but the light sport plane itself can be equipped for night and/or IFR operation.

That said, I think the Skyview is a purty piece of tech, and I'd love to have one in my 12. The SV would be nice for night flights, not just IFR operation. However, I'm building mine E-LSA, I don't plan on re-designing the panel immediately after sign-off (hopefully I'll be flying), and I don't currently envision a lot of night flights. So, for me...I'm happy to stick with the current panel.

You could always go E-AB and design your own panel, but then you lose the plug-n-play ease of assembly that the 12 embodies, as Splitty noted.
 
SkyView - yes

I plan a do some night flying here in the LA Basin and at the ends or beginnings of a few cross countries. I vividly recall on two occasions (flying at night with instructor during PPC training) trying to visually find mountains that were higher than our airplane. I (and my instructor) knew exactly where we were but it made me pretty uncomfortable anyway. I agree that the terrain feature won't be used much during day flights.

There is no substitute for knowing exactly where you are and I see the SkyView as a means of making my flights safer. I love Dynon products due to price, performance, and support.

My 12 will have a SkyView installed soon as I can afford it after Phase One is completed. I will ask Stein to make me an electrical harness that will plug and play both the SV and the D-180. Or maybe Stein will develop an add-on electrical harness that will accommodate both of them. I think that Stein will sell a ton of SkyViews. I also would like an option of 330 as mentioned above and maybe an SL-30 instead of the SL-40.

Don't think that I want to do IFR work in the 12 but I will pay for and learn to use the D-180/SkyView combo. This may be my first and only airplane and I sure do appreciate Van's, Dynon, Rotex, I etc. for their excellent products.
 
re: night flying

I may be wrong, but, I think light sport pilots can/may fly at night with the proper sign off. Same goes for flying in controlled airspace. Is this not correct?

Marshall Alexander
 
The Rules

Light Sport Aircraft can be flown at night by a Private Pilot or above. A Sport Pilot cannot fly at night. Period.

A Sport Pilot can fly in some controlled airspace (Class E) and uncontroilled airspace (Class G). With additional training and a CFI endorsement you can operate in Classes B, C, and D.

Suggested reading: http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/final_rule_synopsis.html

And: FAR Subpart J

As to IFR in an experimental airplane - here is a very informative discussion on the topic: http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/IFR equipment.pdf
 
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BigJohn said:
Light Sport Aircraft can be flown at night by a Private Pilot or above. A Sport Pilot cannot fly at night. Period.

A Sport Pilot can fly in some controlled airspace (Class E) and uncontroilled airspace (Class G). With additional training and a CFI endorsement you can operate in Classes B, C, and D.
Click to expand...
To add to this:

The Class B/C/D endorsement is easy. The rule isn't explicit about it, but my interpretation is that you don't need to visit each type of airspace to get the B/C/D endorsement, just appropriate ground and flight instruction. Most of the CFIs I have talked to agree with this interpretation. After living with the DFW Class B, flying into Class C is a piece of cake. :)

For Sport Pilots, "night" starts and ends at civil twilight. You can make a table of civil twilight for an entire year, or just plan to be in the pattern at sunset (I highly recommend printing the table and keeping it with your logbook, since as a SP, you are required to carry it). Twilight normally occurs 20 to 25 minutes after sunset. Note that the flight must end by the start of twilight, and that includes your taxi time.

LSA can be flown at night, but only if the aircraft's operating limitations allow it and they meet the equipment requirements of the FARs. My oplims simply state that it may be flown at night if it meets the FARs.

TODR
 
As TODR stated, Sport pilots can fly during civil twilight. However, in order to do this, the plane must be equiped with night lights. So, if the aircraft doesn't have night lights, then the sport pilot cannot fly it during civil twilight.
 
mcjon77 said:
As TODR stated, Sport pilots can fly during civil twilight. However, in order to do this, the plane must be equiped with night lights. So, if the aircraft doesn't have night lights, then the sport pilot cannot fly it during civil twilight.
Click to expand...

To add to this, just as a safety factor, it might be very dark and still have plenty of time left before sunset. Overcast skies can turn a day into dark pretty fast. Turning the strobes on gives everyone a better chance to be seen right before sunset when there is more activity to get on the ground. Lights are a good thing even if you are flying sport pilot.
 
Sport Pilot Privileges and Limitations

Read item c (5) below concerning Sport Pilot Night Flying Privileges.

Sec. 61.315
What are the privileges and limits of my sport pilot certificate?
(a) If you hold a sport pilot certificate you may act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft, except as specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(b) You may share the operating expenses of a flight with a passenger, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenses, or aircraft rental fees. You must pay at least half the operating expenses of the flight.
(c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:
(1) That is carrying a passenger or property for compensation or hire.
(2) For compensation or hire.
(3) In furtherance of a business.
(4) While carrying more than one passenger.
(5) At night. (Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time.)
(6) In Class A airspace.
(7) In Class B, C, and D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, and to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower unless you have met the requirements specified in ?61.325.
(8) Outside the United States, unless you have prior authorization from the country in which you seek to operate. Your sport pilot certificate carries the limit "Holder does not meet ICAO requirements."
(9) To demonstrate the aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer if you are an aircraft salesperson.
(10) In a passenger-carrying airlift sponsored by a charitable organization.
(11) At an altitude of more than 10,000 feet MSL.
(12) When the flight or surface visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
(13) Without visual reference to the surface.
(14) If the aircraft has a VH that exceeds 87 knots CAS, unless you have met the requirements of ?61.327.
(15) Contrary to any operating limitation placed on the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft being flown.
(16) Contrary to any limit or endorsement on your pilot certificate, airman medical certificate, or any other limit or endorsement from an authorized instructor.
(17) Contrary to any restriction or limitation on your U.S. driver's license or any restriction or limitation imposed by judicial or administrative order when using your driver's license to satisfy a requirement of this part.
(18) While towing any object.
(19) As a pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.​
 
Pilot limitation

I assume that if you have a Private, Commercial, or ATP certificate, you may operate a LSA-compliant airplane, if properly equipped, at night. The limitation is on the pilot, not the plane.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong:D

Is the same true for IFR/IMC flight?
 
PCHunt said:
I assume that if you have a Private, Commercial, or ATP certificate, you may operate a LSA-compliant airplane, if properly equipped, at night. The limitation is on the pilot, not the plane.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong:D

Is the same true for IFR/IMC flight?
Click to expand...

You are correct sir on both accounts.
 
PCHunt said:
I assume that if you have a Private, Commercial, or ATP certificate, you may operate a LSA-compliant airplane, if properly equipped, at night. The limitation is on the pilot, not the plane.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong:D

Is the same true for IFR/IMC flight?
Click to expand...
Night: The LSA needs to be night approved in the oplims and also properly equipped.

IFR: The LSA needs to be IFR approved in the oplims and also be properly equipped.

See a pattern? For S-LSA, it's ALL about the aircraft's oplims.

TODR
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
Night: The LSA needs to be night approved in the oplims and also properly equipped.

IFR: The LSA needs to be IFR approved in the oplims and also be properly equipped.

See a pattern? For S-LSA, it's ALL about the aircraft's oplims.

TODR
Click to expand...

Actually I don't think the op limitations ever specifically approve any experimental for night or IFR operations...the standard op limitation as copied from FAA Order 8130.2F is -

"After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with ? 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only."

This is the standard for E/AB and E-LSA.
 
Question. I've have my PPL. If I decide to go LS, am I qualified to fly at night and/or in controlled airspace? or, do I have to have another "sign-off"? Or am I still prohibited from flying at night, period?

Marshall Alexander
 
RV10Man said:
Question. I've have my PPL. If I decide to go LS, am I qualified to fly at night and/or in controlled airspace? or, do I have to have another "sign-off"? Or am I still prohibited from flying at night, period?

Marshall Alexander
Click to expand...

Marshall,

Having my morning coffee and reading the VAF posts. You are confusing/combining VFR night operations and operations in controlled airspace. Furthermore, you are lumping all operations in controlled airspace together. Controlled airspace encompasses several classes of airspace. Sport pilots can fly in Class E airspace. But not in B, C, or D UNLESS they get extra training and an endorsement from a CFI. Don't feel bad, a lot of people have confusion about this. These are different operations, under separate sets of rules. If you read this thread from the beginning you will find the rules have been explained quite well. But rather than take our word for it, get the FAR/AIM and go to the source. Briefly, for Sport Piots:

Night operations - NO.

Controlled Airspace: Class E - YES
Controlled Airspace: Class B, C, D - YES, after additional training and endorsement.

If you are confused by the airspace designations (lots of people are), get with your CFI for a session on airspce classes and rules.

One more thing. If you are flying as a Private Pilot, you go by those rules. If you let your medical lapse and "go LS", then you go by SP rules. However if you have experience as a Private Pilot in B, C, and D airspace the endorsement should be pretty easy to get.

Hope this helps!

John
 
RV10Man said:
Question. I've have my PPL. If I decide to go LS, am I qualified to fly at night and/or in controlled airspace? or, do I have to have another "sign-off"? Or am I still prohibited from flying at night, period?

Marshall Alexander
Click to expand...
By having a private pilot certificate, you have already met the requirements for flying at night and/or in controlled airspace. You do not need the "sign-off" for flying into controlled airspace. For night flying, you must have a current valid medical certificate.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Actually I don't think the op limitations ever specifically approve any experimental for night or IFR operations...the standard op limitation as copied from FAA Order 8130.2F is -

"After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with ? 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only."

This is the standard for E/AB and E-LSA.
Click to expand...
For LSA, the manufacturer of the LSA needs to certify that the LSA meets the applicable ASTM standard. There is a night VFR ASTM standard, and to fly NVFR, the manufacturer needs to evaluate the aircraft against this standard. IIRC, I believe that this applies both E-LSA and S-LSA; for E-LSA, the kit maker is the "manufacturer".

Not all individual LSA go through Phase I testing.

TODR
 
Mel, the way I read the FAR's a Sport Pilot needs an endorsement for Class BCD. I don't think it matters that this pilot was formerly a Private Pilot. But I think this is really a moot point. Why not just get the endorsement? Afer all, as a Private Pilot you already have had the training. Just get an airspace refresher from a CFI and the endorsement. This probably is splitting hairs and up for different interpretations, so why take a chance?
 
If you will look at the table under 61.303, it states that operating with a only US driver's license, the holder of a recreation pilot certificate or higher, does not have to hold any of the endorsements required by these subparts.
This is the interpretation I have been given by the guys in Oklahoma City.
 
The following is copied directly from EAA's www.sportpilot.org website.

http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=75

Question :
Can a Pvt. Pilot now wanting to fly under SP and allowing current medical to run out and having a valid Drivers License,still be allowed to fly into Class 'D', 'B' and 'C' airspace? Can he also be allowed to fly at night?

Answer :
The existing private pilot operating at the sport pilot level is allowed to fly in class B, C, and D airspace without further training or endorsement. He cannot, however, fly at night. No pilot who is operating at the sport pilot level can fly at night, since sport pilot privilges and limitations only allow daytime VFR flying.

This appears to support Mel's point. The PP operating under the sport pilot rules, does NOT need the endorsement as the training has been previously received.
 
OK then, I stand corrected! I didn't see the table before, just going by the text in the FAR and trying to think of worst case scenario as to how it might be interpreted. So that is good news. Thanks Mel and Marty.
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
Not all individual LSA go through Phase I testing.
TODR
Click to expand...

All individual Light-Sport aircraft must go through Phase I testing.
Special light-sport are first issued a "Special Flight Permit for Production Flight Testing LSA". Although it's not called Phase I specifically, it amounts to the same thing.
As a matter of point, I am waiting on a Special Light-Sport aircraft right now that is having a problem completing the flight testing phase.
The airworthiness certificate is issued only after the testing is completed and properly documented.
 
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thomasyost said:
I was interested in the GTX-330 as well for TIS/ADS-B, but I looked at the install manuals and the wiring is nothing alike. So I don't see it ever being offered as an option. ....
Click to expand...
Don't need a 330 ...
Zaon XRX does the job...
http://www.zaon.aero/content/view/12/40/

xrx_front_large.jpg
http://www.zaon.aero/content/view/81/53/


gar396+xrx.jpg
 
After it is built, you could just put a Skyview in the right side or possibly move your current Dynon to the right and fit in a new Skyview.

Exterior dimensions for the 7" are 7.63 x 5.5

For the 10" they are 10.32 x 7.06
 
re: answered

Thanks Mel & Marty. You guys did in fact clearly answer my question.

Marshall Alexander
 
Skyview

It would be impossible for Van's to keep up with the changing technology. The present set up is good for what the airplane was designed for. Later, you can make any changes you want.
That said, the change I would like to see is the fuel injected Rotax 912, which I understand is coming down the pike soon. This would eliminate the balancing of carburetors. This is a pain w/the Rotax.

Bill
 
Van's is smart and aware

It looks to me that SkyView is 'not just another nice piece of equipment that would be nice to have' but a genuine advancement in avionics safety. I 'need' one!!!

I would like to be able to purchase my SkyView from Van's when the time comes to order my avionics, etc.

Ok, I can purchase and install a SkyView after certification as ELSA but I hope that Van's will see the mutual benefits of offering SkyView as an option/add on to the present panel. That sure would make it easier for me! I want the awesome benefits of 'Plug and play' from Stein!!!

My wish list --- I'd also like an SL-30 instead of the SL-40, TIS, autopilot, wheel pants, a full lights package, nice interior, and a 30 gallon fuel tank made of some sort of spun fiberglass or plastic material. That's my wish list at this time - subject to change and enlightenment!!! I will have to purchase or build a a trailer too.

Some will remind me of $s and #s associated with my wish list so lets talk about gross weight of MY AIRCRAFT - I have lost 40+ pounds since deciding that I would build an RV-12 and the combined 'crew weight' of MY 12 with my wife and I flying is now less than #330. We're both still on diets and will reduce the 'crew weight' further.

As far as $, I will pay whatever it takes to make it right. This may be the only aircraft that I build. You never know how many heart beats you have left!!!Build on!!!

Van's are you listening???
 
Skyview and IFR

Tony_T said:
Sky View is for hard IFR, isn't it? The RV-12 is a VFR plane, right? I know that the terrain displays are beautiful, but if you are VFR shouldn't you be looking at the terrain through the windscreen? Why pay the extra money for advanced equipment in a VFR RV-12? The current Dynon setup seems perfectly suited to the mission.
It would be great in the RV-9 or 10.
What I would like is the GTX 330 transponder so you could get TIS on the Garmin 496. Now that would be worth the extra bucks, at least in the area that I fly.

Tony
Click to expand...

Your use if Skyview and IFR got me thinking, would you trust the terain display in IMC? ANd I don't mean just Dynon, but all these boxes that are depicting the terain. I wouldn't. And besides the minimum altitudes on an IFR clearance won't let you low enough that the terain view would be useful. So what is the terain view for? Not IFR, and not VFR? Do we need it? Have we evolved in a direction of higher price but not real value? What is missing from the EFIS / Autopilot systems because instead we are getting terain views?
 
You don't need a table of civil twilight in an RV-12

the_other_dougreeves said:
"...I highly recommend printing the table and keeping it with your logbook, since as a SP, you are required to carry it..." TODR
Click to expand...

The 496 provides sunrise and sunset times on one of it's pages. Granted, you may have to choose it from a menu to customize the page to your preferences, but it's there. I use it frequently. Now if you need to plan a trip a month or so ahead of time, and plan your flight to the minute, the referenced table might come in handy, since the 496 only shows sunrise/sunset for current location and current date, IIRC. But any good pilot should be able to extrapolate accurately enough to stay legal, right?

P.S. Sorry this reply is so stale; I haven't been on the forums much lately.

P.P.S. I admit I am not up-to-date on Sport Pilot requirements; I may be in error if a TABLE is required. But if just the information is required, the 496 provides that information. Seems to me the 496 would be more useful than a table because the table would not be correct if a SP flew several hundred miles east or west.
 
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rv7boy said:
The 496 provides sunrise and sunset times on one of it's pages. Granted, you may have to choose it from a menu to customize the page to your preferences, but it's there. I use it frequently.
Click to expand...
Yes, most of the Garmin units provide sunset/sunrise. If you plan to be on the ground within 10 minutes of sunset, you should be Ok.

Note, though, that the time between sunset and civil twilight varies by location and time of year. Here in TX, it's typically 25 minutes, but that's not always true. If you want to fly just after sunset (why not, it's beautiful then), you should know exactly when civil twilight occurs.

TODR
 
sglynn said:
Your use if Skyview and IFR got me thinking, would you trust the terain display in IMC? ANd I don't mean just Dynon, but all these boxes that are depicting the terain. I wouldn't. And besides the minimum altitudes on an IFR clearance won't let you low enough that the terain view would be useful. So what is the terain view for? Not IFR, and not VFR? Do we need it? Have we evolved in a direction of higher price but not real value? What is missing from the EFIS / Autopilot systems because instead we are getting terain views?
Click to expand...
I agree Skyview terrain maps would not be useful on an IFR route, but I was thinking more of situational awareness during approaches. If you got a little too wide or low in the procedure turns on many approaches it would be nice to see the terrain maps.
But actually, Dynon does seem to be pushing the Skyview for LSA airplanes, so maybe it is the future for our little planes.

Tony
 
Tony_T said:
I agree Skyview terrain maps would not be useful on an IFR route, but I was thinking more of situational awareness during approaches. If you got a little too wide or low in the procedure turns on many approaches it would be nice to see the terrain maps.
Click to expand...
I concur. It's kind of a belt and suspenders approach - If you're following the approach, you have terrain clearance. However, SV is a good way to check - if you're going to hit terrain, you're not on the approach! I wouldn't want to rely on the SV to assure terrain clearance, but it's a nice way to check that you're where you're supposed to be.

IFR approaches are a very abstract idea for VFR pilots. SV (and HITS) make IFR more like flying VFR, just like a moving map does.

TODR
 
electronics trust humans ?

would you trust the terrain display in IMC? And I don't mean just Dynon, but all these boxes that are depicting the terrain. I wouldn't.
Click to expand...

Anyone who flies in instrument conditions trusts those navigation boxes that are full of electronics. What is amazing is that the electronics trust humans to interpret the output displays. After all, if a human makes a mistake (and many do), then the electronics will get smashed too. If the electronics had their way, they would send their navigation signals directly to the autopilot that will do a much better job of flying the plane. It is surprising that the electronics gave humans another chance after they were unable to master the VCR programming. Humans can save thousands of dollars by eliminating glass displays that they will misinterpret. So sit back, relax, enjoy the view, and let the computer take you to your destination. :)
Joe
 
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