Shameless commerce

[Noel Simmons]

Gentlemen, we are a new advertiser here on Van?s Air force and I thought I would introduce myself, the staff, and our services to all of you. We are a small shop of two technicians, and my wife that does the books and whatever else needs done. We are true builder assistant that will travel to your hanger and work with you on your RV-10 Quick Build.

In two weeks, my tech and I will amass about 220 man hours, bringing you months if not an entire year closer to flying. Usually, our customers have the taken a tail kit class so the tail feathers are completed, the tail cone is mostly done but not fit to the fuselage yet, and the fuselage is setting on the belly. Two weeks from this point the sheet metal will be done and the fuselage standing on its gear.

Check out our ad at the bottom of the page!
Blue Sky Aviation Inc.
www.blueskyaviation.net
406-538-6574

Noel Simmons
A&P/EAA tech counselor
CFI/EAA flight advisor

 

[Mike S]

Well, I looked at your web site, and found no mention of the main item I, and probably a lot of others are curious about.

What is your price structure?

Thanks.

 

[Davepar]

And how do your customers truthfully certify that they completed 51% of the plane?

 

[Noel Simmons]

Yes this is completely leagal because the builder of the aircarft is physicaly there working.

 

[RVbySDI]

Yes this is completely leagal because the builder of the aircarft is physicaly there working.

If I am working on the plane what are you doing that provides me value?

I would love to have someone else getting messy with Pro Seal or perhaps laying out my wiring for instruments and setting up my panel. However, as Mike asked, what does your being there cost me?

With the new stance the FAA is taking on the 51% rule and their close scrutiny of builder assist programs and "Hired Gun" builders, I think my last question could have as much to do with the cost involved in the registration of my airplane as it does the out of pocket monetary expense of paying for you to be in my shop. These are two very important issues I would have to know up front in order to make a decision on whether I would hire you for assistance.

 

[CNEJR]

With all due respect meant.

How would Noel helping you work on your airplane be any different in concern to the 51% rule, then a friend helping you who has experience? For that matter how do you account for the mental effort & advice given on this website to builders? Shouldn't you have to work out all the planning and ideas in a dark room in silence by yourself in order to comply with the 51% rule?

I know I have benifeted from the "mental work" of many on this website and the organization & experience provided by many friends, is this not the same?,

"He said he would help and lead you in your prescence in your work shop", if this is against the 51% rule, then you shouldn't let anybody in your workshop that has RV experience or listen to anyone on this site.

"Hired Gun" has very negative conotation. Smacks of ego.

Again all due respect to all meant, flame suit on.

 

[Ted Johns]

Where's the line?

Gentlemen,

Given that Glasair is still advertising it's "two weeks to taxi" program, it's a little bit premature to say that a few hundred hours of commercial help is forbidden. The Glasair program probably provides the rough equivalent of 1200 hours of assistance. It may well be that the FAA decides that is too much. But I doubt that even the FAA knows where the precise line will be drawn at this time.

 

[jmartinez443]

And how do your customers truthfully certify that they completed 51% of the plane?

I believe I read/heard that you must list all builders in your application for an airworthiness cert. Can others confirm?

If so, that is how you truthfully certify that the builder(s) completed 51% - you list Noel and crew.

 

[ChrisL]

How would Noel helping you work on your airplane be any different in concern to the 51% rule, then a friend helping you who has experience?

Well, Noel is being paid for his services. People who get paid for thier services are often referred to as professionals. Therefore, Noel is doing nothing wrong (and should be commended for his support of this site), but since 51% must be amature built, you just need to make sure that his services don't push you over the hump. I don't think anyone here is trying to bash Noel, and I certainly doubt he is going to just show up and build the plane for you... so no real issue here.

Simple enough to me - thread closed!

Just kidding, nomex suit now on...

 

[dmaib]

Blue Sky Aviation

Noel and Brian spent several days with Mary and I last month and I will have no problem asserting that Mary and I built the airplane. We have been working hard on this project for nearly two years. What we needed was someone with experience to come direct us on what needs to be done next, as we start putting all of these little projects together to make an airplane. Mary and I put in ten hour days alongside Noel as he directed, instructed, and helped us. Someone with the knowledge that allows us to avoid some of the pitfalls that will inevitably come along for newbie builders like us, is no different than soliciting advice on this and other forums, having Stein build my panel, or getting help from a friend that really knows how to work fiberglass. Not only did it move the project ahead, it gave me more peace of mind that our work to date is good. Noel is an EAA Tech Counselor and spent quite a bit of time examining everything we had done when he arrived.

 

[craigvince]

Noel and Brian spent several days with Mary and I last month and I will have no problem asserting that Mary and I built the airplane. We have been working hard on this project for nearly two years. What we needed was someone with experience to come direct us on what needs to be done next, as we start putting all of these little projects together to make an airplane. Mary and I put in ten hour days alongside Noel as he directed, instructed, and helped us. Someone with the knowledge that allows us to avoid some of the pitfalls that will inevitably come along for newbie builders like us, is no different than soliciting advice on this and other forums, having Stein build my panel, or getting help from a friend that really knows how to work fiberglass. Not only did it move the project ahead, it gave me more peace of mind that our work to date is good. Noel is an EAA Tech Counselor and spent quite a bit of time examining everything we had done when he arrived.

That sound to me like it fits perfectly with the 51% rule. The way I understand it, if you hired them to come and build your plane for you, whatever they built would not be included in the 51%. BUT, if they assist you in building it, you are "participating" in at least 51% of the build. It's no different than the '30-seconds-to-taxi' programs. The way they still qualify is because you are present and participating in everything that is done.

 

[s10sakota]

Are you guys serious?

I think it's almost comical that some people on here are questioning Noel's services!

Let's see...

How many RV people hire a PROFESSIONAL to paint their planes?

How many RV people hire a PROFESSIONAL to build them a panel? Yes-BUILD them a panel. All you do is bolt the finished panel in the plane!

How many RV people hire a PROFESSIONAL to build their seats and interior?

Sorry guys, didn't mean to wrinkle your military flight suits, your nomex gloves and your military helmets you NEED to fly an RV, but paying for guidance is not paying someone to build your airplane.

In my opinion, paying someone to paint an airplane, design, wire and build a panel, and sew interiors is (almost) like paying someone to build a plane. Geez.

Mark

 

[sprucemoose]

In my opinion, paying someone to paint an airplane, design, wire and build a panel, and sew interiors is (almost) like paying someone to build a plane. Geez.

Mark,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, FAA literature on the subject specifically exempt the things that you mention from consideration in making 51% rule considerations.

 

[dav1111]

Builder Assistance

For anyone who believes that the 51% Rule or any other FAA rule requies the builder to NOT receive any assistance like Noel provides they just need to do their own thing and not worry about it so much.

Having built an RV-10, assisted in the co-build of an RV-8, and now building an RV-7 I am of the firm opinion that what Noel offers fits perfectly within the framework of the existing 51% and FAA rules.

Having been in Noel's shop at Lewistown, Montana (in the dead of winter) and having visited with Noel multiple times I would recommend Noel to anyone who wants a helping hand to get in the air a little quicker.

I am too cheap to pay Noel but I don't hesitate to ask my buddies to do the same thing for free.

 

[sprucemoose]

they just need to do their own thing and not worry about it so much.

Russ,

With respect, I think you are wrong. With everything that has come out in the past month or so regarding the uncertain future of the amateur built rule, I think we need to give such things greater scrutiny now than ever before. If you made this statement a year or two years ago I'd be more inclined to let it pass, but the situation has changed dramatically since then.

This discussion has come up from time to time on various forums, with members coming down on one side or another. Those on my side, who feared that those who abused the 51% rule for financial gain were jeopardizing the very existence of that rule, seem to have been proven, if not correct, at least prescient in their fears.

 

[Geico266]

Is this how we welcome a new advertiser?

Beware all you advertisers lurking out there thinking of joining VAF! Join and we will tear you apart!

I am ashamed & embarrassed this thread has gone on this far.

 

[dreamtime]

Hope For Clear Guidance

Friends,

I hope we eventually get clear guidance on precisely this issue. I've wanted to build an RV for a long time, but I've come to the firm conclusion that I will never trust myself to do it alone -- without the kind of help that Jay Pratt or Noel offers. I want to build because I want the learning experience of building, and because I want to fly a homebuilt, and because I want to belong to the homebuilding community. But I know that this kind of service is the only realistic way that I will ever build my own plane.

At the same time, I would never knowingly do anything to harm the homebuilding movement, nor would I want to carry the burden of knowing I fudged the truth about building it myself every time I climbed into my pride and joy to go flying.

So, I hope someone eventually is able to give us clear guidance.

David Wright

 

[Jconard]

Well,

During my slow build, my father (military helicopter mechanic later pilot) came and bucked rivets and helped with other wing tasks. I paid him...at least 5 hours flight time in the citabria, some quality single malt scotch, a handful of dinners, free boarding since he lives in another state, and an extra nice xmas present that year.

Another friend of mine who is a professional military pilot and CFI has bucked rivets, but I introduced him to his new wife, have bought dinner many times, and generally laugh at his bad jokes.

Two other friends have helped me that own an aviation business, are A&P's and I have paid them too, by purchasing items from their business, working on their planes, etc...

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PAYING SOMEONE FOR LESSONS OR ADVICE, OR TO BUCK RIVETS WITH YOU.

the sky is NOT falling, the sky is NOT falling. I have been blessed with the smart and helpful people in my area that have helped and advised for free. But, there would be nothing wrong with me paying someone to work with me and teach me, so long as I am working on everything at the same time.

There is no requirement that you are the SOLE manipulator of the tools. For crying out lound, riveting/bucking is designed to be a two person job...does that mean you need to either use pulled rivets, or not give yourself credit for the riveting... because it was not just you doing the riveting???

Get real.

Frankly I am really pleased by the existance of this service because it is what I think could well be the prototype for appropriate builder assist. In your shop, a two or three week building vacation...awesome!!

 

[dmaib]

shameless commerce

jconard wrote:
In your shop, a two or three week building vacation...awesome!!

That is just what it was for Mary and I.
We learned an awful lot (Education), and had a good time making such fast progress (Recreation)

I believe that is what this is all supposed to be about.

 

[az_gila]

EAA TC...

...... Noel is an EAA Tech Counselor and spent quite a bit of time examining everything we had done when he arrived.

Please note that when he has his EAA Technical Counselor hat on, he can't be charging you for any advice given...

EAA rules, not FAA rules....

gil A - lots of unpaid hours on other projects...

 

[dreamtime]

Build Manager/Consultant/Assistant

Well,

Frankly I am really pleased by the existance of this service because it is what I think could well be the prototype for appropriate builder assist. In your shop, a two or three week building vacation...awesome!!

John,

I agree with you. Here's what I would look for in a builder assist service.

First, I need a build manager. I am confident that I am intelligent enough and skilled enough to learn what I need to learn to build an RV. But this is a complex project in a realm where I have very little knowledge or experience. I need someone to guide me through it, and to teach me the skills and processes that are needed at each step of the way.

Second, I will need the accountability of a managing partner, and clear progress to keep me going forward. I complete difficult and long-term projects in my professional life all the time. But there I have a framework, an accountability team, and we celebrate progress together. Two or three week "fast progress" sessions at needed intervals could be a great boost toward completion.

Third, I will need actual physical building help with difficult steps, or when I get stuck, or when I just can't get past those "stalled" times that all complex projects have. I'm NOT looking for someone to do the work for me in my absence. If so, I would buy a completed plane someone else is selling. I want the experience of building. I just know that I will need help sometimes when I can't make progress on my own.

I think I am the kind of builder the "assist" programs were designed to help, and that people like Noel could help -- (though I don't need a -10). I also wouldn't do the "two-weeks to taxi" program though I looked carefully at it. That's more help than I want, and than I want to pay for. I don't just want a plane to fly. I want the hobby of building. And I was also concerned about whether it would eventually damage the homebuilding freedoms that the community has enjoyed thus far.

Someday, I believe I will take the plunge even without assistance. But just knowing I could legitimately draw on a menu of services from a build manager/partner as needed, that could be available to me at my location, that could assure me I'm building with the quality that's needed, would be a great confidence booster.

David

 

[RVbySDI]

. . . I think my last question could have as much to do with the cost involved in the registration of my airplane as it does the out of pocket monetary expense of paying for you to be in my shop. These are two very important issues I would have to know up front in order to make a decision on whether I would hire you for assistance.

Noel, first I must apologize for what obviously must have sounded like a slap in your face for advertising your services. That was not the intent for my post anyway. I was very simply asking for information dealing with the costs.

1) What rate do you charge to come to my shop for a "working vacation"?

2) What ramifications for meeting the 51% rule would I have to deal with?​

If I were to make any decisions regarding this type of service, these are the two very important questions I would need answered before I could make an informed decision.

As far as the arguments posted by others concerning the 51% rule debate;

• 
  There have been a great many posts asking how we can have professionals paint, build panels, build engines or fabricate interiors for our planes and still meet the 51% rule.
  
  The FAA specifically excludes these parts of the build when determining the builder's involvement in construction of 51% of the aircraft. So that more or less leaves us to discuss the construction of the air frame when working around the 51% rule. That is the sticky point that seems to be catching the eye of the FAA.

• There has also been discussion about having friends or family members help buck rivets or any number of other tasks.
  
  Again the argument that we cannot do this is a week one as the FAA clearly states it does allow for this type of assistance. It however does also clearly address the issue of someone doing that work for "monetary compensation" for you. So to say that your buddy, aunt, uncle, son, daughter or a total stranger came over and helped you buck some rivets for which you gave them a beer and an airplane ride does not qualify as the same thing when comparing that to writing a check for $$$$ to (yes I will say it here!) a "HIRED GUN" to do the work for you while you go off to work.

Lest someone continue to believe I am attacking Noel, I am not accusing Noel of being a hired gun. I am just asking him two straight forward questions that would help me make an informed decision about whether it would be beneficial for my needs to have his assistance.

Live Long and Prosper!

 

[Noel Simmons]

AC 20-139 COMMERCIAL ASSISTANCE NOT REQUIRING RE-EVALUATION

#1 we charge $110/hour + expenses
#2 Our customers are required to be present.

Indeed, if the "builder" leaves for work and therefore is not present he would have not met my expectations or the FAA's expectations. My concept is to be the assistant of the "builder".

AC 20-139 COMMERCIAL ASSISTANCE NOT REQUIRING RE-EVALUATION OF THE COMPLETED AIRCRAFT.

a. Commercial instructional assistance may be obtained by the amateur builder in the fabrication or assembly of specific parts and the completion of certain tasks or processes involved in the construction of the aircraft. During all instructional activity, the amateur-builder must be present to accomplish the tasks and all subsequent fabrication and assembling of parts for which commercial instruction is being rendered. Tasks completed by the amateur-builder would be identified on the FAA Form 8000-38 under AMATEUR or in the assembly manual. For example, assume fabrication of the wing ribs is listed on the checklist or in the assembly manual as a task required to be completed by the amateur-builder. Instructional activity could be provided to build the first few ribs with the remainder to be completed by the amateur-builder.

b. Commercial assistance may be obtained for non-checklist items on a kit that has been evaluated by the FAA. A non-checklist item is a task or process that is not listed in the checklist. These items also include painting and the installation of interior upholstery or avionics beyond basic regulatory requirements. Such a task or process would not be required to be personally completed by the amateur builder for the aircraft to receive an airworthiness certificate under section 21.191(g).

c. The amateur-builders not expected to have fabricated every component that makes up the completed aircraft. Non-checklist items include the fabrication of the engines, propellers, wheels and brake assemblies, and standard aircraft hardware. The installation of these items may be required to be accomplished by the builder if they are checked in the AMATEUR column on the checklist.

 

[N941WR]

... but since 51% must be amature built, you just need to make sure that his services don't push you over the hump...

The 51% rule states, correct me if I'm wrong, that you must do 51% of the different tasks required.

Thus if you set one rivet, you can mark that task off to list and you don't need to do all the thousands of remaining rivets.

Same goes for putting a bolt in. How many bolts do you need to insert and torque before you can say you know how to insert a and torque a bolt?

Great idea guys, I wish you two luck!