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RV-9A engine choices

Daver

Well Known Member
Is there a 9/9A out there that flies with the 0-235 lyc?

Seems like most have the 0-320 engine.

According to Van's specs, the 9/9A flies pretty good with the smaller engine.

Most folks I've asked say that their RV performs about like Van says they will.

With $4/gal avgas I was just wondering........

Dave
 
There are several flying with the O-235. One is kit #1 built by Stan Shannon in Fredericksburg, TX.
 
rv9a with 125hp

Dear Dave,

I used to have a RV9A with a continental IO240 (125HP) installed on it. I just installed this engine due to a really good deal i had on it. After flying 100 hours on my RV9, i got the conclusion that the only good (but not exceptional) is the fuel consuption. Other wise, you take more runway to take off, less climb rate and the main bennefict of an RV in my opinion, AIRSPEED.

After sometime, I personally started to get crazy in not even get near the yellow mark (I cruise about 140mph 75%@8000' .

Now i am about halftime of a RV7 construction and definelly would recommend a 160HP for the -9. The price of the engine is not much difference, the overall performance is MUCH better and if you can save some $$$ you just throttle back your 320 and get the fuel consuption of the 235.

But of course, this is just my .2 cents...


Henrique Castro
90197 PPXRV ex125hp, now o320 installed :)
72810 RV7 on the way....
 
9A with O-235 Lycoming

We purchased a partial kit that included the O-235 Lycoming, a 118 hp engine. We just finished installing the windshield, panel and wiring and plan to fly sometime after the first of the year after paint. We are using a two blade Catto prop, which Craig customized for the O-235 from previous experiences with this setup. Catto is confident the performance will be very attractive.
We are really excited with this opportunity to blend fuel effeciency with Van's physical engineering to make a great plane. This plane is currently in Wichita, Kansas. We will be more than accommodating by providing performance numbers during phase 1 test flights.
We are finishing this plane up with the intent to sell it to help defer the cost of the RV9-A that I will keep for myself and Todd is starting the empennage of his RV7. The garage is really full :eek: with two planes nearly complete and the tail started on the third plane.

Pat Garboden Todd Wiechman Building in Wichita, KS
Ozark, MO Wichita, KS
RV9-A 942WG (reserved) slider with O-235 118 hp
RV9-A 942PT (reserved) tip-up with O-320 150 hp
 
Pat,

Thanks for the report.

I'm a ways off of making an engine decision but I like doing the research.

If you compare the performance specs with similar production aircraft/engines, the 9A looks really good. I guess I was looking for someone to comfirm this.

I'm mostly interested in climb performance at 5000'. I don't really care to go fast. If the 0-235 will climb out OK and scoot me along at 130 MPH I'd probably be happy (especially at 4-5 gph!).

Van's specs are with a fixed pitch prop. I wonder if its a "climb" or "cruise" prop or the one in between.

I'll anxiously await your report on how a RV9 flies with the small engine.

Dave
 
How many times ahve you heard someone say, "Darn, this plane climbs too fast"?

How many times have you heard someone say, "Darn, I wish this plane couldn't cruise so fast"?

It costs as much to overhaul an O-235 as it does an O-320. Resale value with the O-235 will be lower.

If you already have an O-235, sure, go for it. But if you are going to be buying one, you might want to reconsider. You can always throttle back.
 
Dave,

I often fly my 170hp 0-320 9a on low power when just getting a flying fix and having no real destination. Also with fuel prices high it allows for some cheap flying as you have pointed out. Another scenario that I'll fly on super low power settings is when going off field to fill the tanks before putting her away which often gets a return trip in the economy mode so the tanks will be as full as possible for a future trip.

The point of this is that the 4-5 gph fuel flows are obtainable with the larger engine and the speeds and flows are similar to the engine that your considering. Besides the obvious benefits of the bigger engine the airplane just feels better when running more power and speed. At the 120-130mph true airspeed range the plane flys nose high and is mushy. It kind of wallows thru the air compared to how it feels at higher speeds and is in my opinion not as fun to fly. The handling becomes more like the Piper or Cessna's that we learned to fly in.

A lightly built airplane, low compression 0-320 with a Catto two blade... It could be pretty sweet. This could be a great compromise that would essentially do it all. JMHO

Best,
 
I really appreciate all the input here.

I think the 0-320 is the way to go especially for a new engine.

I just like to hear all sides of the issue.

It'll be loads of fun either way I think.

I'll order my wing kit this month to beat the Jan 1 price increase.

The tail feathers went together faster than I had planned. I'm ahead of schedule!

Dave
 
Dave,

This is always an interesting topic.

There is a guy here in NC with a 108 HP O-235 in his -9A. This is his second RV, the first being a -6A, which his father now flies.

He picked up the O-235 by default. When the O-320 he purchased was not serviceable he installed the next available engine he could find, which was the 108 HP O-235.

We have talked a number of times and he REALY likes this engine/airframe combination. He flight plans at 150 MPH and has told me on multiple times, that is what the plane delivers with the fuel burn of a 152. (I'm not sure which prop he has or his empty weight.)

We get so spoiled by the crazy high climb rates and speeds of these RV's that we forget how good the RV's are, even a low powered one. A C-172 climbs at something like 650 FPM, if you are lucky, and a 118 HP -9A at gross will climb at 950 FPM, 1150 solo. Those numbers just blow me away!
 
Bill,

Yeah, the 9A numbers are very impressive even with the 118HP engine.

Looks to me that the the 118HP 9A will out climb a C172 & a bunch of other production planes. Also, according to Van, the 9A flies well at lower speeds. Lower speeds = more flight hours (I like that). I don't like to be in a hurry while having fun....

It was pointed out to me that the 0-320 engine is commonly used for 4-place planes with alot higher gross weights than the 9A.

Doing more with less, although not popular now-a-days, kind of appeals to me. I drove my 805cc motorcycle from Albuq to Portland last July. 2917 mi.
In the bike world, if you don't have 1800cc "you got nuttin". My "little" bike kept up just fine on the interstate & got 64 MPG.

I think the 0-320 would make the plane better at X-C with a passenger & bags but I'll just wait & see what's available and for how much $ when the time comes.

I'm learning tons of stuff here. Thanks to all!

Dave
 
Fuel Efficiency

Dave,

I love your motorcycle analogy. Bigger is not always better, to some of us, so don't give up quite yet on the 0-235.

First of all, the RV-9 was purpose-built for the 118 HP Lycoming engine. The longer wing, fowler flaps, larger tail were all combined to make lower-powered flight possible. The RV-9 prototype was built with an 0-235, and received glowing write-ups for efficency and eze of handling. But before the prototype could be emulated by new builders, it was destroyed in an unfortunate weather accident in Arkansas on the way to a fly-in in 2000.
(Van doesn't like instrument flying, and doesn't allow gyros to be installed in factory aircraft). The second prototype was built with an 0-320, for reasons I don't fully understand in light of the glowing reports on the first prototype.

Now you see guys putting 180 hp Lycomings and 200 hp Subarus in the 9. I don't understand it, and it makes Van very uneasy to see his airplane cruising
above it's Vne. Which I'm sure is rather baffeling to a newbie like yourself trying to make a safe and sane engine choice.

To understand this logic, you need to understand that many homebuilders are like hotrodders. Speed is the alter on which many worship. Heck, there are guys putting 6 cylinder Lycomings on RV-7's........because they can! That's the beauty of experimental aviation......you can push the envelope until something breaks. And if that's not enough speed, you can move up to a Harmon Rocket and go even faster. Not fast enough, install a Chevy V-8 like some fellow here in Phoenix did and cruise way over the redline and design gross weight. Turbines are also available so you too can experience the joy of seeing 30 gph fuel flows!

Now having said all this, the 0-320 is a wonderful engine, and would only give you a 1-3 gph fuel penalty. Better high altitude performance if you want to go to ABQ in the afternoon, and about 50 percent better climb rate. Only about 15 kts more speed though, for about 3 more gph.

I have flown Stearmans, Supercubs, Luscombes, Champs and Grummans with
bigger engines than the designer intended, and not one was any more fun to fly. They just burned more fuel. You get to where you are going a little bit faster, but like you so wisely stated "I'm not in a hurry to have a good time". I have a strong suspicion that the RV-9 will be just the same.

I want to do some long distance flying with my plane, so the maximum fuel efficency is very important to me. I've been through my "hair on fire" stage, about 30 years ago, so now it is more important to me to arrive at my overwater destination with fuel in the tanks. Now days I only care to impress myself, and I find 34 mpg the 0-235 will deliver to be very impressive.

There is one guy here that claims to get 35 mpg from his IO-360, but he won't submit proof of sustained performance, only a snapshot of an engine instrument. Fact is, all internal combustion engines produce their best sfc's
at rated horsepower. Throttling back a large engine just won't match the efficiency of a purpose-built airframe/engine combination.

Please though, don't take my word for any of this. Contact Stan Shannon in
Lubbock Texas and ask him why he has installed the 0-235 on the last 3 RV-9's he built. ( Now just sit back and watch all the hotrodders and tuners flame me for liking small engines! Comes with the territory I guess!)


John Ragozzino
RV-9 QB / 0-235
Phoenix, Az
 
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Yukon said:
Dave,

( Now just sit back and watch all the hotrodders and tuners flame me for liking small engines! Comes with the territory I guess!)


John Ragozzino
RV-9 QB / 0-235
Phoenix, Az


LOL You won't get flamed here, but there is a great picture on another post today that is pretty interesting. There is a very clear shot of the airspeed indicator on a 160 hp 9a @ 8K' and 2600rpm. It shows what I've been trying to get out there for a while now. This airplane is indicating 166mph which is 14mph under the yellow, and the spread is even greater in TAS in relation to VNE!!! If this airplane had a 180hp in it the math says that it would still be under the VNE for flutter and the indicated would be 173mph which is still 7mph under the yellow!!! It sure looks like there is room for a bigger engine here. Here's a link to the picture.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=13217

Best,
 
Bigger Motors

Bryan,

What does Van have to say on this subject? Wonder what guys are indicating at sea level when they do that high-speed pass? Structural failures don't often occur in level, cruise flight.

John
 
The Truth Will Set You Free

One step closer.......What are you indicating during a high speed pass at your favorite uncontrolled field?
 
Thankfully my plane has a throttle and I don't see the yellow, even on decents! We appear to be arguing here about something completely ridiculous. The nose gear is more of a fear for me at my local favorite field, or the chance of a bird coming thru the windscreen, even at 130mph! C'mon, are you funnin' with me? I'm adding you to my list, which is good for a coke (my treat) and a good laugh together at a future fly inn.

Best,
 
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Maximum Structural Cruising Speed-Smooth air only

Bryan,

I'll take you up on that Coke....I'd like to see that beautiful 9 of yours in person sometime. But really Bryan, how ridiculous can my assertions be if they reflect those of the aircraft's designer?

Glad to hear you operate within the parameters of the POH. At my recent visit to Copperstate I saw many yellow arc passes.....beautiful, but risky.
 
There is one more engine option

You can do what I did and find a good O-290-2D. It puts out 135 HP (140 for take off) and max fuel burn (according to the Lycoming manual) is 7.1 GPH. Van's tells me my -9 will run at 175 mph true at 75%.

As the engine sits right now, I have $7,500 in it with 0 SMOH, a newly rebuilt carb, and duel P-mags.

My empty weight goal was 1040 lbs but now I keep hearing that I should expect it to be closer to 1000 lbs even. We will know in a few weeks.

That should leave me 534 lbs w/ full tanks at a GW of 1750. Which means I can fly with my wife and Torque, the Wonder Dog, and still have 125 lbs left for dog food.
 
Bryan, take another look at the picture

Bryan Wood said:
LOL You won't get flamed here, but there is a great picture on another post today that is pretty interesting. There is a very clear shot of the airspeed indicator on a 160 hp 9a @ 8K' and 2600rpm. It shows what I've been trying to get out there for a while now. This airplane is indicating 166mph which is 14mph under the yellow, and the spread is even greater in TAS in relation to VNE!!! If this airplane had a 180hp in it the math says that it would still be under the VNE for flutter and the indicated would be 173mph which is still 7mph under the yellow!!! It sure looks like there is room for a bigger engine here. Here's a link to the picture.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=13217

Best,

166 mph = 188 mph TAS, yellow starts at 180mph.

VNE is only 22 mph away. I am looking to going this fast in my RV9A, but at these speeds you will need to be careful when you start down hill to not overspeed.

Kent
 
Getting close!

Bill,

A couple more weeks??? How close are you to Raleigh? I'd like to see your plane sometime.

John
 
Wilksch WAM 120 DIESEL

There is another engine option the WAM 120....... have a look at the see my finished RV 9 thread. :D

Empty weight 1050 lbs.
 
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Yukon said:
Bill,

A couple more weeks??? How close are you to Raleigh? I'd like to see your plane sometime.

John
John,

I should have said "Months" but I am close to finishing. Fiberglassing in the canopy right now and need to jump on the canopy.

Check out my web site, lots of pictures on there, even if I am a bit behind in updating it.

I'm just outside of Charlotte, Exit 23 on I-77. Stop by if you are ever in the area.
 
Lower HP Engines for the -9A

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I've looked at the Lycoming 0-235, and steered away from them because of the new cost being similar to the 0-320, and overhauls the same. Anything used may be a flogged out 'training' engine from a 152 or Tomahawk. Engineers tell me that corrosion is quite a problem in used 0-235's, at least out here.

The Jabiru 3300 6 cylinder engine looks interesting for the -9A. It's rated at 120HP, & is much cheaper than the 0-235. As part of a FWF kit, the factory will provide a new mount, plus extended length cowling to get w&b right. The engine is 70lbs lighter too, and with a wood or composite prop, it looks like an EW of <1000lbs is possible.

Needs to be light, because you are going to try to keep it under 1600lbs gross - as that's what VANS recommend for the 0-235 version of the -9A

I asked VANS about how they see the Jabiru, and they indicated that they saw no difference between the 118HP and 120HP engines, insofar as performance and max gross wts.

I've flown several Jabiru's fitted with this 3300cc engine, and it's a very smooth unit. The fuel consumption,with the new pressure compensated carby, is now around 18-20 LPH = 4.75 to 5.3 USGPH (Conversion is 3.78 L = 1 USG). Stretches those -9A tanks quite a bit, doesn't it? But, you need to rework the range figures based on a more realistic 125-130 KTAS.

There is a strong probability that our CASA,(=FAA), will allow a 750kg, (1650lbs), gross weight for LSA in Australia. In that event, a low HP -9A will be registerable under LSA, which would really be news ! I think this will happen, because CASA has already allowed the Australian LSA category to have no upper speed limit - unlike your 120 KTS max cruise.

It's a long way between fuel stops here, and avgas is expensive too at about US$4.50 per USG, so anything that will squeeze a bit more economy is of interest to us. If we have to fly a tad slower, then that's reality!

regards to everyone,

Ralph Burnett
ex owner RV6 VH-VNE, and current builder of RV-9A,reg to be VH-VFE.
Albany, SW Western Australia.
 
TBO

I think I read the 0-235 has a 2400 hr TBO (vs a 2000 TBO for the 0-320).

If true, I wonder why. 400 hours is a LOT of hours.

I've seen used 0-235s for WAY less than a 0-320 but I'm a little scared of used engines. Read some horror stories on used engines.

Anybody?

Dave
 
Daver said:
I think I read the 0-235 has a 2400 hr TBO (vs a 2000 TBO for the 0-320).

If true, I wonder why. 400 hours is a LOT of hours.

I've seen used 0-235s for WAY less than a 0-320 but I'm a little scared of used engines. Read some horror stories on used engines.

Anybody?

Dave
400 hours is just broken in throughly! Not sure if $10k for a 400 hr -235 is a good price, but that time doesn't scare me one bit.

Used aircraft engines are not a lot different than any other used mechanical device. You just have to know what you're looking for to minimize the risk. I'll assure you, there are many, many very good used engines out there among the bad ones.

If you don't have the background to determine the condition yourself, make friends with people who do. Most are very willing to share their experience and knowledge. Or you could hire someone.

Another way is to find some of the reputable operations who sell used engines. Wentworth, Air Salvage of Dallas, etc, etc. These operations will not want to damage their name by selling something questionable. I know for a fact that ASOD test runs their used engines thoroughly. I'm sure many others do also.
 
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Jabiru + V-prop !

Ralph,

I have been looking at the Jabiru 6-cylinder my self, but because of fuel prices I prefer diesel. The Jabiru comes with the specially designed baffles, which I think is a good idea. If you are going for this engine, check out this prop: http://www.silence-aircraft.co.uk/silence%20twister%20propeller.htm

constant speed, only 6 kg, no need for a governor, no controls, less than 1/2 the price of the well known brands and designed for the engine. The Jabiru 4-seater will do 125 kts with this engine and prop combination. I guess that any RV should do better than that, with this combo and it will be very light!

Regards, Tonny.
 
kentb said:
166 mph = 188 mph TAS, yellow starts at 180mph.

VNE is only 22 mph away. I am looking to going this fast in my RV9A, but at these speeds you will need to be careful when you start down hill to not overspeed.

Kent
I agree with you and Yukon about that VNE number and being careful not to reach it. However, as for being careful with your speed downhill, I would like to think that we all had instruction on how to control airspeed on descent during our flight training. I hope we have all not forgotten what our instructors had taught us (I know mine taught me this, I sure hope he was the norm and not the exception). There have been a lot of people on this and other threads mention the idea of decreasing the throttle on descents to control our airspeed and avoid hitting that VNE. Well, as I recall from my flight training (and still practice as an avid flyer), I control my airspeed on descent with the stick not the throttle. As much as we tend to think about the idea that pouring the gas to the coals increases speed the reality is that gravity is the real speed demon. Tip that nose over and point it down even at idle and you are going to see very quickly what happens to your airspeed.

Throttle controls the altitude needle (ok, tape if you are looking at those glass panels), Elevator controls the airspeed needle. So if you really want to argue the issues of airframe structure risks and whether a pilot will exceed VNE on descent, why don't we start discussing the control of that descent in terms of using the stick instead of the throttle (i.e. pilot understanding of the laws of physics)?

So with this aerodynamic truth in mind it would make little difference if you had a fire breathing behemouth of an engine under the cowl or you were gliding dead stick, if your piloting skills are so lax that you push the airframe to the VNE number, by pushing the stick too far forward on descent, you are definitely going to be pushing your luck.
 
poteroo said:
I've looked at the Lycoming 0-235, and steered away from them because of the new cost being similar to the 0-320, and overhauls the same. Anything used may be a flogged out 'training' engine from a 152 or Tomahawk. Engineers tell me that corrosion is quite a problem in used 0-235's, at least out here.

The Jabiru 3300 6 cylinder engine looks interesting for the -9A. It's rated at 120HP, & is much cheaper than the 0-235. As part of a FWF kit, the factory will provide a new mount, plus extended length cowling to get w&b right. The engine is 70lbs lighter too, and with a wood or composite prop, it looks like an EW of <1000lbs is possible.

Needs to be light, because you are going to try to keep it under 1600lbs gross - as that's what VANS recommend for the 0-235 version of the -9A
If you plan to fly in the eastern half of the US, the O-235 or J3300 should work fine. The 3300 is designed for easy maintenance and low cost (auto plugs, auto oil filters, etc). The O-235 is a solid engine and you can convert it with FADEC if you so desire.

However, new and used O-320s are widely available, aren't all that much heavier, and have a much higher reserve of power at altitude that should be most welcome as one ventures west of 100 deg longitude. At 1600 MGTW, a O-235 -9A would have a power loading of 13.6 lb/Hp, while a 1750 MTGW O-320 ship would have 10.9 lb/Hp. For reference, the C182 is about 13 lb/Hp at MGTW.

It's worth noting that the MGTW of 1600 might be optimistic. Dan's W&B Databse has lots of data on RV W&B, including several -9As. Very few weigh less than 1050 lb empty, and many have MGTW of 1800 lb or greater. No O-235 ships are listed.

I see the -9 as an excellent traveling machine, being able to comfortably climb to and cruise in the 8k to 14k MSL range. As a low-time pilot, I have only a few hours flying over cumulo-granite, but I've already seem enough downdrafts and turbulence to understand the value of power to get well above ridges and get out of downdrafts. Add these together, and to me, this means that an oxygen bottle and a O-320 would be most welcome in a -9A that spends its time out West.

As Van's points out in a pair of articles and others have noted in this thread, you do need to be careful of VNE, particularly at higher altitudes (I would love to know what the MTGW they used in the V-N diagram in the article - 1600 or 1750?). However, the added power of the O-320 in climb seems to be a good trade off for having to be careful with the airspeed.
 
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Why I chose a IO-360 for my RV9A

This will be my third homebuilt. My second one, a One Design with a IO-360, 3 Blade MT prop is still with me and flying.
Spent about a month trying to decide on the engine for the 9A. Knew I wanted cold air induction (like the One Design), wanted roller tappets, and fuel injection. There were so many compromises and delivery problems, that when I found out I could get a Superior 360 for the same price as the 320, and that it was only a few pounds heavier, and I was getting a RV7cowl anyways because of the horizontal FI, and the 360 is only one inch wider, it made sense. At lower altitudes, throttle management will be necessary, but up high where we plan on doing a lot of cross country, this plane will move.
The only item that we are getting on the original wish list is the roller tappets, everything else is stock, including the mags.
The engine speck and performace sheet will give me the operating settings to keep the power similar to the 320 and lower altitudes.
And that's why I did it...
Regards
Jack
 
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