RV-8 Panel Design Feedback SDS/Z-101

[Zach]

Looking for feedback on my proposed panel/switch layout.



I am installing an SDS EM-5 system and using a Z-101 electrical system (2 alternators, 1 battery). Exterior lights are FlyLEDs.

I have everything I need to start the engine on the right subpanel wing. These switches will not generally be touched after the runup is complete. Boost pump (2nd pump for TO and landing) is operated with the left hand like a "normal" plane.

If you are wondering about the 2 flap switches, I have the TCW flap controller, and was planning to wire the panel switch as the "pilot" switch, and the stick switch as "copilot". The panel switch would take priority in case of conflict.

For the Small Trigger on my stick, do you think COM1 Flip/Flip would be more useful than COM1/COM2 switch on the Audio Panel? Use case is possible formation flying. COM1 is a Skyview Com, COM2 is a PAR200B.

Thank you for any input you can provide!

 

[ty1295]

I am not a fan of smoke button's, and much prefer a switch unless you never plan to fly formation with smoke.

In formation you don't have time to look down and it is easy to get out of sync with on/off with a button. One of our team members did just this in front of 500k people. He hasn't heard the end of it yet, and changed it out to a switch.

 

[2theskyy]

I’ve been looking at -8 panel ideas as well. One idea is similar to yours and I even have pinky switch as com1 flip/flop.
I prefer my A/P panels up high and left but exact A/P disc in same yoke switch position.
My other idea is dual 10” screens with no backup as they each provide redundancy.
I think I’d put all my switches(except for engine/master) on the left panel for non flying hand to operate. I had seen others build 45* panel down to throttle quadrant that had switches.
I had planned on doing a secondary engine push button switch on yoke.
I wasn’t going to put flap switch on panel, just yokes. But you’ve got me rethinking that.

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

I used to be hard over on radios on the non-flying hand (I'm right handed), but now I'm not so sure, especially with GPS and such that are button push intensive. And radios that are designed to be tuned with the right hand.

Also, don't optimize your switchology for starting, when you have lots of time. Pay close attention to emergency situations, and other situations when you don't have a lot of time. Design your checklists while you're designing your panel so that you have good flow, as opposed to a switch here and another there.

For RV-8s, I like flaps on the stick so you can get rid of them on the rollout. I wish mine had that.

You get the idea.

Ed

 

[Zach]

I am not a fan of smoke button's, and much prefer a switch unless you never plan to fly formation with smoke.

When I ordered my stick, I actually planned to use the flap switch as a smoke switch. It's an (On)-Off-On DPDT. So I could use it for smoke on or momentary smoke if I'm just wanting a blip.

The current switch marked smoke is a momentary push button. So no getting out of sync, but I could accidentally let go when I don't mean to if it's a longer maneuver.

Would you rather have a smoke switch on the stick or operable by the non-flying hand?

Thank you for the feedback!

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Some thoughts:
- I’m not a fan of switches on the stick for the co-pilot in an RV-8 as other than “make a couple of turn” type stuff the GIB is really not able to fly the plane. If you do that you need to add a cutout switch to prevent inadvertent flap and/or trim movement. The rear seat stick in my RV-8 has a bicycle grip on it, and the overall length is shorter than the pilot stick to provide some mechanical advantage if I have a GIB that goes nuts. The stick is rarely installed.
- Flap switch on the pilot stick - add another flap switch on the panel if you like.
- Move the GPS navigator as high on the left side of the display as possible. For IFR you will find yourself mashing buttons on this more than you would like. I recently did a bunch of practice RNAV approaches (RV-8, GTN-650, dual SkyView displays) and got a surprised when doing a practice hold. The GTN-650 (with current data base) displayed the hold in the right location, but wrong course and leg length. I had to go in and edit it on the 650 - having the display up high made this easier.
- The RV-8 can easily handle a 10” and a 7’ SkyView displays all on the center panel. Perhaps another option for your future backup EFIS.
- The Dynon Comm module need not be high as the frequencies are displayed on the EFIS screen.
- I find the SkyView Knob Panel and Autopilot module low on the panel to be about right. The Knob Panel (low and left) is easily manipulated with the left hand without putting your head down. The Autopilot module (low and right) is not manipulated as much, and when it the autopilot is engaged your right hand is available as needed.
- Suggestion. Move the vent from the left panel wing to a bracket just below the panel (no - it will not interfere with your quadrant). This frees up the left wing to move your center panel mounted switches to it (and you gain some real estate for future mods). At that point you have divorced the stuff needed between the plane and the panel to have it easily removed for maintenance, modifications and upgrades. The rule is “never on your back with your head under the panel”. You will be surprised at how soon you will want to change something after you are flying.

Carl

 

[2theskyy]

I vote this the best usable thread of the day. Great ideas and thanks OP!

 

[Lkitson]

I have my flap switch on the stick and I really like it there because I don't have to take my hands off the throttle or stick from downwind through landing and for touch and go or go around. Highly recommended.

Another consideration is to add a second/backup PTT to the panel for use if the primary one fails. I've had them fail a few times in spam cans and could just reach over and use the one on the co-pilot's side. Not so easy to do in an RV-8. I also tend to use that switch when on autopilot since my hand isn't on the stick.

Also, if you're planning to use an ipad in the cockpit, a convenient place to mount it is on the right side of the cockpit (there aren't many other choices). That location will block most of the lower switch panel and right side subpanel (see photo). Just FYI.

 

[SMRacer]

Hangar visit

You should stop over to hangar 24 and talk before you make your final decision on panel layout. Sit in the airplane and flip some switches.

 

[ty1295]

Would you rather have a smoke switch on the stick or operable by the non-flying hand?

Thank you for the feedback!

Mine personally is next to the throttle so I can switch it with my throttle hand without moving off the throttle or looking down. During Airshow type work, the smoke can be on for an extended time and the call for on/off are almost never straight and level.

Like everything everyone has a personal preference.

 

[andoman]

Between the SDS display and the auto pilot controller which will be see the most hands on use?
If its the autopilot controller, then consider swapping it with the SDS display in order to make it more accessible to the non-flying throttle hand.

 

[CATPart]

Me I like to see more symmetry and balance if possible, should the ergonomics work out, all so subjective.

 

[Christer]

Go all Garmin

If you plan to fly IFR and Dynon does not have a IFR certified GPS you will need to use a Garmin GPS. Therefore I would recommend switching to a Garmin G3X system with Garmin A/P, remote comm and audio panel rather than having 3 different manufacturers. Having it all Garmin will allow you to use some of the features that is not available when using a Dynon EFIS and a Garmin GPS. Having it all one manufacturer has its advantages. I have a G3X, GTN650 in my RV-8, but they did not have the A/P available when I built the panel so it is a TruTrak A/P. If it fails, I will install the Garmin A/P. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[strahler13]

CATpart, Do you have enough room behind the panel when you mount the GPS/COM that low?

 

[Carl Froehlich]

If you plan to fly IFR and Dynon does not have a IFR certified GPS you will need to use a Garmin GPS. Therefore I would recommend switching to a Garmin G3X system with Garmin A/P, remote comm and audio panel rather than having 3 different manufacturers. Having it all Garmin will allow you to use some of the features that is not available when using a Dynon EFIS and a Garmin GPS. Having it all one manufacturer has its advantages. I have a G3X, GTN650 in my RV-8, but they did not have the A/P available when I built the panel so it is a TruTrak A/P. If it fails, I will install the Garmin A/P. Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree that a TSO certified GPS navigator is needed. I disagree with the rest of this opinion.

I built four panels with dual SkyView displays and associated components. All have the overpriced and clunky GTN-650. Everything integrates together perfectly and I enjoy superb after the sale service from Dynon.

The current (and final build) will have the Garmin GPS-175, the very nice TRIG TX56A for Comm #1, NAV/LOC/GS and a PSEngineering audio panel. Everything else will be Dynon.

So - the Chevy vs Ford debate continues……

Carl

 

[Walt]

If you plan to fly IFR and Dynon does not have a IFR certified GPS you will need to use a Garmin GPS. Therefore I would recommend switching to a Garmin G3X system with Garmin A/P, remote comm and audio panel rather than having 3 different manufacturers. Having it all Garmin will allow you to use some of the features that is not available when using a Dynon EFIS and a Garmin GPS. Having it all one manufacturer has its advantages. I have a G3X, GTN650 in my RV-8, but they did not have the A/P available when I built the panel so it is a TruTrak A/P. If it fails, I will install the Garmin A/P. Just my 2 cents worth.

Yep, what he said. Go Garmin or go home
And I've installed way more than 4 panels.
Carl is a die-hard Garmin hater, not sure why, but it doesn't really matter.

 

[CATPart]

Looks like he already has a garmin gps there? Maybe I am wrong, but I am assuming he already owns these various components. If so then arguing about buying all new stuff is not going to be helpful. He simply asked for layout advice.

Strahler I have seen pics of that unit mounted that low, but not centered. I am not sure if it would cause an issue.

 

[Duhg]

I'm at about the same point as the OP so can't really speak from experience. I like the look of the symmetrical layout more, but feel like I want as much of the inflight noodling as possible higher on the left, and the the things that won't be managed as much inflight on the right. It might be because I'm tall and left handed. It's nice we have the ability to choose what works for us. Building the fastback, so I lose some space on the outer wing panels.

 

[mreifeis]

Some things to consider

You'll get an infinite number of opinions - most are personal preferences as are mine. The design philosophy I employed is to eliminate clutter on the primary panel. As such I removed the SDS control and placed it in the right hand sub panel area.

My panel is Garmin but the Dynon setup has all the same components. I chose to go with 2 big displays and added a second ADAHRS for full redundancy. Also, I eliminated the dedicated radio controls as I find the touch screen control to be very easy to manage and it saves panel space. It is a good idea to put warning lights at the top of your panel. These alert you to an issue (yellow) or warning (Red) that you can get the details on from the EFIS. I also put a light at top for when the smoke is on. I have an on/off toggle as well as a momentary switch on my stick to control the smoke.

 

[strahler13]

Yep, what he said. Go Garmin or go home
And I've installed way more than 4 panels.
Carl is a die-hard Garmin hater, not sure why, but it doesn't really matter.

....says the Garmin dealer....

I like both suppliers, but wonder where we'd be pricing wise without Dynon.

 

[Walt]

....says the Garmin dealer....

I like both suppliers, but wonder where we'd be pricing wise without Dynon.

Agree competition is a good thing.
Garmin doesn’t send me a commission check for posting on VAF unfortunately
I do consider it to be the best in GA avionics, which is why I’m a dealer and it’s the only avionics package I will install.
PS: I fly behind a G3X/GTN IFR panel so I’m intimately familiar with it’s operation as well.

 

[SMRacer]

Carl is a die-hard Garmin hater, not sure why, but it doesn't really matter.

Well, Carl isn't the only Garmin hater. And I know exactly why.
Also, Dynon and AFS share a lot of components. So I deal with both, but I much prefer dealing with AFS.

 

[andoman]

Here's a Pix

My Rocket panel. The real estate should be equivalent to the -8. Note the SDS CPI-2 controller in front of the stick next to the glove box. It's still accessible, but won't see much action on a typical flight. Other items if anyone is curious: Red guarded sw below throttle quad: Start enable for stick mounted start button. Blue guarded sw in front of the base of the stick: Aux fuel xfer.

 

[rbibb]

Forgive me but this is a serious question. Where do you put the magnetic compas s or does the EFIS supply that function?

I’m in early planning stages of upgrade of RV4 panel and an jeolous of the real estate the 8 offers….

 

[catmandu]

Forgive me but this is a serious question. Where do you put the magnetic compas s or does the EFIS supply that function?

I’m in early planning stages of upgrade of RV4 panel and an jeolous of the real estate the 8 offers….

Any EFIS system with a magnetometer satisfies the FAR 91.205 requirement for a "magnetic direction indicator."

 

[andoman]

Specific Location

Forgive me but this is a serious question. Where do you put the magnetic compas s or does the EFIS supply that function?

To answer the "location" part of your question:
In the wingtip or on the aft deck under the vertical stab. You can mount it on a shelf off one of the fuselage bulkheads aft of the baggage compartment, but in a flying aircraft that would be tough access. Answering the question of "how to get the wiring there" is likely the deciding factor in location.

 

[Snowflake]

Forgive me but this is a serious question. Where do you put the magnetic compas s or does the EFIS supply that function?

In a museum where it belongs.

(yes, the EFIS provides that function, via a remotely-mounted AHARS unit)