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RV-12, E-LSA Getting The Paper Work Ready For Inspection

Geico266

Geico266

Well Known Member
Now that the engine kits are sceduled to be shipped and seeing as how the E-LSA is a new beast to us all, I thought I would start a thread to help us all better understand the proceedure of getting the paper work ready, submitting it to the FAA or DAR, and what ever else is needed.

What do we do now? :confused:
 
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For those of you getting ready for your E-LSA inspection...

When you contact your DAR for the airworthiness inspection, make sure he is up to date on how to do it. It is VERY different from amateur-built, and even different from the "Grandfathered Ultralight" E-LSAs.
Most of the FAA offices are not "up to date" on E-LSA. It's not high on their priority list. So if he has any doubts, ask him contact Van Stumpner in Oklahoma City or myself. Van and I have been through the procedure quite extensively.
972-784-7544
 
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Mel said:
When you contact your DAR for the airworthiness inspection, .
Click to expand...

Hi Mel,

I am sure you are right that the process is different if we can find a DAR with "Function Code 47". The FAA does not seem to keep any list or have a plan on how we can find a DAR with this Function Code.

I guess it is just our good friend Edsel Ford seeing that we are well served by the FAA. Yes this is the same Edsel Ford who was bragging because he took an A&P's certificate for changing a tire on a LSA aircraft, what a guy. He is also the one who is trying to prevent most of the "Function Code 46" DAR's from getting the new "Function Code 47" because he is mad at them for not helping him with the mess of heavy ultralights.

Most of us will have a very real problem getting our RV-12 inspected and approved as the FAA is not here to help us on this.

Best regards,
Vern
 
OK, Here we go...

vernhendershott said:
Hi Mel,
I am sure you are right that the process is different if we can find a DAR with "Function Code 47". The FAA does not seem to keep any list or have a plan on how we can find a DAR with this Function Code.
Click to expand...

Go to www.FAA.gov. Go to the "aircraft" tab. Click on "aircraft certification". Click on "airworthiness certification". Under resources, click on "find designees and delegations". Under designees, click on "designated airworthiness representatives maintenance and manufacturing". This will bring up a list of DARs. Continue to scroll down to your state. You are looking for function code 47 for E-LSA.
I hope I haven't missed something.
Gotta run the mail box down to the road. I'll review this when I get back.
 
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Hi Mel,

Thanks, I had already tried that list, they list only two for all of Florida and they both live more than 200 miles away.

This is not a complete list or it is just not kept up as we have a Function code 46 here in Spruce Creek who is very active (more than 20 aircraft per year) and he is not listed. He is one of the people who ask for Function Code 47 and the nice people in OKC have made it clear that they do not want it to happen by making him start over as if he had no experience at all and then do all the paper work, which was rejected twice, and so on until he just said it is not worth trying to get the Function Code 47 for the few aircraft that he could help out. I was told that there is a DAR in Titusville (about 40 miles) but he does not show on the list either.

I fear for good reason that we may have our RV-12's done for some time before we can fight our way through the FAA and get to fly them.

Mel, you have always been helpful and if you lived anywhere near by I am sure it would not be a problem just like the EAB's here at Spruce Creek where our local DAR is the finest kind and gets the job done even if he has to help with the paper work. It is not going to be like that for most of us with our RV-12's.

Have a good day.

Best regards,
Vern
 
I do travel!

I know travel expenses add a notable amount, but I DO travel. I leaving this afternoon to do an RV-7 in Denver, CO.
Also if several guys in the same area can get together at the same time, you can split the travel costs.
 
Frank Baldwin, a friend and neighbor, travels most anywhere in his Thorpe for expenses.

Baldwin , Frank D
226 Aero Drive
Troy, MO 63379
Phone (636)528-4886
E-Mail: [email protected]
Function:46 Limitation: None
Function:47 Limitation: None
Function:48 Limitation: None
 
MartySantic said:
Vern:

Looked quickly at the DAR list and I count 9 DAR's in FL with Function 47, and may have missed a few. Hope that helps.

It is the same list that I looked at and there are only two in Florida with "Function Code 47";

Derosa, Day Venice, Fl
Ringger, George Fort Lauderdale, Fl

There are a number of "Function Code 46", which would help if we were doing an EAB.

Best regards,
Vern
Click to expand...
 
Mel said:
I know travel expenses add a notable amount, but I DO travel. I leaving this afternoon to do an RV-7 in Denver, CO.
Also if several guys in the same area can get together at the same time, you can split the travel costs.
Click to expand...

Hi Mel,

I do appreciate that you would travel, what would be the total charge for coming to Spruce Creek and doing the ELSA certification on my RV-12 when it is done?

Best regards,
Vern
 
Vern,

Look further down in the document under DAR-Maintenance FLORIDA. You will find several more with Function 47. Also, be careful how you view the screen pages. Each page has two columns. If the text in the first column is not complete, go to the 2nd column at the top of the SAME page.

Mel is listed under DAR-Maintenance TEXAS.

Let me know!!
 
Geico266 said:
Just a heads up. When looking at this list there are two different areas. The first list of DAR's and states did not contain all of them. Scroll down about 1/2 way though the list and there is another list of states with more DARs.
Click to expand...
The 2 lists are "manufacturing" and " maintenance" DARs. Typically manufacturing DARs deal with "factory built" aircraft, and maintenance deals with "experimentals". Since some light-sport aircraft are factory built and some are experimental, the FAA has included them under both.
 
Mel said:
The 2 lists are "manufacturing" and " maintenance" DARs. Typically manufacturing DARs deal with "factory built" aircraft, and maintenance deals with "experimentals". Since some light-sport aircraft are factory built and some are experimental, the FAA has included them under both.
Click to expand...

Ahhh! That explains that! I'm sure there is a logical reason but, it still seems simpler to have one list. Would not the function code dictate what the DAR's can do?
 
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Geico266 said:
Ahhh! That explains that! I'm sure there is a logical reason but, it still seems simpler to have one list. Would not the function code dictate what the DAR's can do?
Click to expand...

Yes, but many DARs have multiple function codes. For example, I report to a FSDO as a "maintenance" DAR, but I have function codes that pertain to "factory built" aircraft as well.
 
Mel,

So for the RV-12. Should we choose a DAR-Manufacturing or DAR-Maintenance if building E-LSA 100% conforming to Van's S-LSA??
 
MartySantic said:
So for the RV-12. Should we choose a DAR-Manufacturing or DAR-Maintenance if building E-LSA 100% conforming to Van's S-LSA??
Click to expand...
Maintenance or manufacturing does not matter. The function code is the same. Maintenance (DAR-T) or manufacturing (DAR-F) only indicates whether he reports to a FSDO or MIDO.
 
RV-12 serial number?

Are we to assume the aircraft serial number is the same as our building number? I've sent an e-mail to Vans, but no response yet.

Mel, For an E-LSA the "manufacturer" (for form #8050-1) is Van's Aircraft right? Other Van's planes the builder is the manufacturer, but with E-LSA it is the kit company with the S-LSA?
 
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Geico266 said:
RV-12 serial number?

Are we to assume the aircraft serial number is the same as our building number? I've sent an e-mail to Vans, but no response yet.

Mel, For an E-LSA the "manufacturer" (for form #8050-1) is Van's Aircraft right? Other Van's planes the builder is the manufacturer, but with E-LSA it is the kit company with the S-LSA?
Click to expand...
Yes,

I also would assume that your builder number is the serial number, unless Vans tells you different. That's the way they have done it in the past.

Van's Aircraft should be listed as the builder.
 
I just looked at the Bill of Sale provided by Van's. They forgot to add the words "Van's Aircraft" to the line just below the "N" number asking for "AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURER AND MODEL NUMBER". Van's is going to have to redo and resend them. This form cannot be altered in anyway after it is signed or it will be rejected by the FAA.
 
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Bill of Sale

Larry,
Mine says RV12. Everytime I've bought or sold an airplane I always put PA24 or CE172. PA being the manufacturer and 24 the model. Same should hold true for RV12. Could be wrong but lets hope so.
 
Well, as I suspected, I got my paperwork back for corrections. The FAA did allow me to write VANS AIRCRAFT, INC. in however. This is a departure from what they did years ago, but a welcome sign they are finally using common sense? :eek: Well maybe not, make sure you print your name below your signature on the registration form. They will kick it back for that too.
 
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Mel said:
Yes,

I also would assume that your builder number is the serial number, unless Vans tells you different. That's the way they have done it in the past.

Van's Aircraft should be listed as the builder.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mel, I can confirm the builder number and serial number are the same. :D
 
What exact paperwork do I need, and what does the DAR need?

I have;

FAA Registration
POH
Maintenance Manual
Production Acceptance Procedures
Form 8130-15 Statement Of Compliance
Form 8130-6 Application for AW Cert.
 
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Geico266 said:
What exact paperwork do I need, and what does the DAR need?

I have;

FAA Registration
POH
Maintenance Manual
Production Acceptance Proiceedures
Form 8130-15 Statement Of Compliance
Form 8130-6 Application for AW Cert.
Click to expand...

Everything you have listed, plus a copy of the weight and balance computation and a program letter.
 
Program letter: what is it?

What is the "program letter" and what does it have to contain, and who prepares whatever it is? Is there a web address that might provide the details?
 
For certification and what forms and how the process goes I have created a web site just for this. There is a section for Light Sport aircraft and the checklists I use are there. I also include a flight test plan, however Van’s has one in the material they provide that must be used and Van's will will be called out on your limitations in Phase 1.

I am in the process of certifying a RV-12 currently and plan to post the limitations on line so you can see what they should look like. The limitations for the RV-12 are very different as the aircraft is built to ASTM standards as called out on the FAA 8130-15 form. I also call out the ASTM standards on the limitations.

Just so there is not confusion I am not a DAR, but happen to over see several in my area. I keep current on the latest LSA changes and several are due out in about 30-days so when I get them I will post a link.

My web site is located at; http://www.stacheair.com
 
Data Plate

Talking with my DAR and looking at the notes on Pg 51-05, only the manufacturer, model and serial number are required. Anything beyond that is your option.
 
JohnF said:
What is the "program letter" and what does it have to contain, and who prepares whatever it is? Is there a web address that might provide the details?
Click to expand...

Hey guys, I still have not seen an answer to this question. What is the "program letter"? Why do I need it? Where do I get it? Does the DAR furnish it? ahead of the AW inspection? after? Is there an example to look at?

Tony
 
The program letter will be similar to the one for amateur-built, but several of the requirements are different. Your inspector should be able to furnish one.
 
Tony_T said:
Hey guys, I still have not seen an answer to this question. What is the "program letter"? Why do I need it? Where do I get it? Does the DAR furnish it? ahead of the AW inspection? after? Is there an example to look at?
Click to expand...

Tony, Check your email.
 
Mel said:
Tony, Check your email.
Click to expand...

Hi Mel,

Please let me start by saying this question is not directed at you personally as you are a fine man and have been of much assistance to us all.

But I would like to ask you as a DAR and FAA Representative why a "Program Letter" is such a secret document that it must only be sent to one person by private mail when you have said that we will all need them why is it not in an AC or a FAA Form?

Best regards,
Vern
 
Not sure why it's such a mystery.

AC 20-27G paragraph 11.e. spells out exactly what's required for a program letter and Appendix 13 of this same AC gives a sample document.

Well, let me back up a moment. Actually AC 20-27G is for amateur-built aircraft, so I can see why you might not go there if you are building a light sport aircraft. However, light sport has the same basic requirements as amateur-built.

Actually a better place to find ALL requirements is FAA Order 8130.2F. It's up to change 4 now.

Bottom line is, your inspector, be it an ASI or DAR, should send you all the required paperwork. As a matter of fact, the Program Letter is the first thing they should send you because it LISTS all the required paperwork.
 
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Mel said:
AC 20-27G paragraph 11.e. spells out exactly what's required for a program letter and Appendix 13 of this same AC gives a sample document.

Well, let me back up a moment. Actually AC 20-27G is for amateur-built aircraft, so I can see why you might not go there if you are building a light sport aircraft. However, light sport has the same basic requirements as amateur-built.

Actually a better place to find ALL requirements is FAA Order 8130.2F. It's up to change 4 now.

Bottom line is, your inspector, be it an ASI or DAR, should send you all the required paperwork. As a matter of fact, the Program Letter is the first thing they should send you because it LISTS all the required paperwork.
Click to expand...

Hi Mel,

OK I tried to get the FAA Order 8130.2F and the FAA has their website set to make this impossible as it jams Internet Explorer causing a failure and it does not seem to be available from any other source on the web. I guess the FAA thinks it is just to secret for us poor users.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Vern, try this link. It works for me: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/184b11bb25fd020c862572c3000b21ab/$FILE/Order%208130.2F%20change%203%20.pdf
 
BigJohn said:
Vern, try this link. It works for me: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/184b11bb25fd020c862572c3000b21ab/$FILE/Order%208130.2F%20change%203%20.pdf
Click to expand...

Thanks John but it also failed for me it just causes the IE to say that it must be shutdown and sends a report to Microsoft.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Vern,

I sent the file to you as an e-mail attachment. You should have no problem opening it, provided you have the Adobe Acrobat reader installed on your computer. It was only 222K.
 
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