RV-12 Disclaimer notice

[steve wyman]

VANS has just posted a very interesting disclaimer notice on their website. You can pull it up by selecting the RV-12 order form. It goes a long way towards answering a lot of the A/C regisration questions that have floated around the RV-12 forum from time to time. I'm sure glad I'm going the E-LSA route! steve

 

[Fl Mac]

When I read the regs it states that it has to be built per plans, not with components purchased soley from the manufacturer. Purchasing your Rotax 912S from another source (or already having one) should not though it out of the E-LSA catagory.

Mel,

If I already have a Garmin sl-40 and a Dynon 180 and opt to not buy the avionics kit from Van's and assemble one myself, am I no longer eligible for E-LSA? It is still built per plans.

 

[bigbill25]

Here is the text from the PDF (link to PDF):

BEFORE YOU ORDER AN RV-12, PLEASE READ THIS!

Philosophy:
The RV-12 Kit was designed to be licensed as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA).
While it may be eligible for licensing in other categories (Experimental Amateur Built [E-AB], for
instance) or under other rules in countries outside the jurisdiction of the FAA, we strongly
emphasize that the RV-12 is the product of careful design and extensive testing. From the
spinner to the rudder, it is a fully integrated system. We do not believe that it is in the best
interests of any RV-12 builder to delete, substitute or modify any component in the kit.
Bottom line: Build it exactly as it is designed and supplied…we know you’ll love it!

Licensing Requirements: (E-LSA)
If a builder intends to license their RV-12 as an E-LSA, they will be required to supply a
completed Form 8130-15 (Light Sport Aircraft Statement of Compliance) to the FAA at the time of
licensing. The completed Form 8130-15 is supplied to the builder by the manufacturer (Van’s
Aircraft, Inc.) only after the builder has purchased all of the kits in their complete form. Van’s
Aircraft is unable to issue the 8130-15 Statement of Compliance unless every component of the
kit (including powerplant and propeller) has been purchased through Van’s Aircraft.
Bottom line: If you plan to license your RV-12 as an E-LSA, you cannot delete kit
components!

Credit for Deletions: (deletions are not allowed on E-LSA kit purchases)
Each complete kit is designed, produced, sold, crated and shipped to optimize efficiency and the
value of the kit. Kit component deletions result in reduced efficiency and increased costs.
Subsequently, the credit allowed for deleted components is adjusted to reflect the discounted
price of the component as part of the complete kit.
Bottom line: You will receive less than retail credit for deleted kit components (including
engine and propeller).

Returns Policy for RV-12 components:
As with kit component deletions, RV-12 builders who choose to return kit components will not
receive a Form 8130-15 and will not be eligible to license their RV-12 as an E-LSA. Van’s
standard return policies will apply to RV-12 components. Standard restocking fees will apply.

A customer who deletes or returns components will be required to fill out, sign and return a “Non-
Standard Kit” affidavit prior to shipment of their kit or receiving credit for a return.

Thanks for your interest and support!

 

[Mel]

Mel,
If I already have a Garmin sl-40 and a Dynon 180 and opt to not buy the avionics kit from Van's and assemble one myself, am I no longer eligible for E-LSA? It is still built per plans.

Looks like Van's will not issue an 8130-15 unless you buy everything from him. He has that right. The 8130-15 is required to qualify for E-LSA licensing.

 

[Peterk]

Looks like Van's will not issue an 8130-15 unless you buy everything from him. He has that right. The 8130-15 is required to qualify for E-LSA licensing.

I thought that was the plan all along. I'm just glad he hasn't bailed. Why all the surprise? Surprise would be if he left us all hanging with 3/4 kits and decided not to certify it as an SLSA at all.

 

[Threetracker]

A 912ULS is a 912ULS...

I believe that VAN's has opened themselves up for a huge problem if they require that the Rotax engine is purchased through Van alone. Last night I wrote that the folks at Vans aircraft6 were great engineers and they would respond as necessary to meet their customers needs...did I speak too soon?

Jay Sluiter

 

[SteinAir]

Guys, it's not as simple as you think.

Take one simple thing like the engine. Part of the issue here is that not all Rotax 912S's are created equal. Just because you can buy one doesn't mean it's an ASTM compliant version from the factory. Same with some of the other components. I'm not saying that's the case with every single thing in the plane, but certain components are built to ASTM standards for the SLSA version of the -12, therefore in order to be ELSA compliant they need to be the same. For example, some avionics will have the same model number yet have many different part numbers...there are a whole slew of different GNS-430 part numbers, heck it even extends as far as other components that we aren't using in a LSA (but are familiar in the normally certificated world). Marvel/Precision/Bendix have dozens of different part numbers for a like model (SP-4 Carb's or RSA-5 servos)...been that way in regular certificated aircraft for years. I'm just pointing out that a model number doesn't equal a part number.

Anyway, I'm not taking sides here...just letting those who don't know that just because you find something that might have the same model number doesn't mean you're getting the same part number.

One thing to remember is that Rome wasn't created in a day. Likewise Van's is ALWAYS developing their kits, increasing options and developing the airplane. Look at this like the first RV6 taildragger...that came first...then came a sliding canopy, then a nosewheel, etc.. Would you rather have a great plane available now (while not maybe meeting 100% of each persons desires), or wait 5 years for Van's to do all the engineering on all the options before they made the plane available?!?!??

It's the old saying..."You can make some of the people happy all of the time and all of the people happy some of the time, but never all of the people happy all of the time". It's an extraordinarily difficult position to be in. I think Van's tries VERY hard to do the best they can to make a product that comes pretty close to the best compromise for all the builders. They didn't make the LSA rules, they are just following them and delivering a good product with what they can in the time they have with the resources they have available.

If I were a betting man I'd say that just because the kit looks one way at this very moment doesn't mean it'll look that way forever. Van's can only do so much in a given time to get this plane out in our hands. After the initial engineering is done, perhaps there will be alternatives in areas of the kit as customers request....just food for thought.

My 2 cents as usual (and obviously a biased & staunch Van's defender).

Cheers,
Stein

 

[Fl Mac]

Looks like Van's will not issue an 8130-15 unless you buy everything from him. He has that right. The 8130-15 is required to qualify for E-LSA licensing.

I had a real nice talk with Van's yesterday trying to understand the rules a little better. I think Scott at Van's was very forthright with their intentions and the way they are looking at this. First he said that they are still trying to understand the rules and their liabilities. Scot just went through about 7 hours of meetings with the feds trying to understand and interpret the rules. Because the rules are still being interpreted, they want to err on the side of being conservative. Their stance is in order to give a statement of compliance and be sure you built the plane per plan is to at least be sure you purchased all the proper components. One problem with this system is the builder can get the statement of compliance having purchased all the right parts, but that does not mean modifications were not made. He was not exactly sure it would stay this way.

The regs allow for Vans to designate a third party to sign off that the plane was built to standards. Van's can give your DAR authorization to sign off that the plane was built per plans. The dar can actually look at it and see what components were put in the plane. To me that would be more accurate than looking at a shopping list.

Scott also said that from his meetings that he was under the impression that the EAB rules were not going to change. Please add your own disclaimer on his statement, but he was fairly confident that changing the EAB rules was set aside.

Now that I have a much better understanding of the E-LSA rules and Van's procedures, I now have to figure out which would be better E-LSA or EAB. My local Dar said he will sign off the RV-12 as EAB. He thinks that is the best way to go. Fortunately you do not have to make that decision (assuming you are keeping a good log) until you get to the panel: possibly the engine if you already own one.

I think Van's is doing what they can in order to get the best possible product out the door. Although they have much more flexibility than they are exercising, I understand why they are structuring the process the way they are. I will have no problem building this plane as an E-LSA following their procedures if that is the direction I go.

 

[Peterk]

So now I am confused about the certification process once we are done.

1. Do we still need a FAA Form 8050-1 (Registration App)
2. Do we still need a FAA Form 8050-88 (Ownership)
3. Do we still need a FAA Form 8050-2 (Bill of Sale)
4. Do we still need a FAA Form 8130-6 (Airworthiness Ap)

The previous note says Van's can designate a DAR if they like? Does that infer you don't need one at all if you buy all your product from Vans?

 

[Mel]

So now I am confused about the certification process once we are done.

1. Do we still need a FAA Form 8050-1 (Registration App) YES!
2. Do we still need a FAA Form 8050-88 (Ownership) YES!
3. Do we still need a FAA Form 8050-2 (Bill of Sale) YES!
4. Do we still need a FAA Form 8130-6 (Airworthiness Ap) YES!

The previous note says Van's can designate a DAR if they like? Does that infer you don't need one at all if you buy all your product from Vans? NO!

See above.

 

[Fl Mac]

sorry to confuse.

We were talking about the 8130-15 statement of compliance only. I only suggested that Van's can use the Dar to fill out and sign the 8130-15 to make sure the plane is in compliance rather than use a shopping list. My suggestion would be in addition to the dars responsibility not replace it. I am sure this will not happen.

 

[Peterk]

Mel

Thank you Mel. Anything I missed? I do know that it can take awhile for the registration system to work thru the FAA and you need a bill of sale for that. I asked Van's this morning about that and they said they usually let people request it after the finishing kit order. But....in this case they may wait until after the powerplant which they anticipate to be a two-week task. I have heard tales of 6 months to get a registration back and tales of two-weeks. Just the same, they promised to discuss it and see if they can send one earlier. Thanks again for clearing up the form business.

 

[Mel]

8130-15 Light-Sport Aircraft Statement of Compliance

sorry to confuse.

We were talking about the 8130-15 statement of compliance only. I only suggested that Van's can use the Dar to fill out and sign the 8130-15 to make sure the plane is in compliance rather than use a shopping list. My suggestion would be in addition to the dars responsibility not replace it. I am sure this will not happen.

The 8130-15 must be filled out and signed by the manufacturer. This would be Van's Aircraft. Unless things change, a DAR does not have the authority to sign off on the 8130-15.

 

[Fl Mac]

Mel,


This says that the manufacturer or authorized agent can sign the form. I don't think Van's will authorize anyone else to do it, but they can.


http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8130-15 Rev1 Instructions.pdf

One other thing I forgot to ask you. Mel, Scott the other day said that the feds made him feel that they will not let E-LSA's be modified after they are certified. Have you heard anything on this?

 

[Mel]

Mel,
This says that the manufacturer or authorized agent can sign the form. I don't think Van's will authorize anyone else to do it, but they can.
One other thing I forgot to ask you. Mel, Scott yesterday said that the feds made him feel that they will not let E-LSA's be modified after they are certified. Have you heard anything on this?

Yes Van's may authorize an agent to sign off on the 8130-15, but personally I don't see it happening.

Unless Scott knows something that I don't, at this point there is nothing in the regulations to prevent modification after the certification. I have discussed this extensively with the guys in Oklahoma City. I will be attending my annual DAR seminar next week and I assure you it WILL be brought up.

 

[Fl Mac]

Yes Van's may authorize an agent to sign off on the 8130-15, but personally I don't see it happening.

Unless Scott knows something that I don't, at this point there is nothing in the regulations to prevent modification after the certification. I have discussed this extensively with the guys in Oklahoma City. I will be attending my annual DAR seminar next week and I assure you it WILL be brought up.

Like I said, I don't see it happening either.

When you get back, keep us posted.

 

[Mich48041]

Modification after issuance of airworthiness certificate

Below is my correspondence from August 2008 with Joe Norris at EAA Headquarters

To Joe Norris,
I talked with you after a forum at OSH about being able to modify an E-LSA after it is certificated. I need something in writing to prove to my friend at the local EAA Chapter 13 that it is legal to modify a completed E-LSA. Could you provide me a link to an EAA or preferably a FAA website that states the rules regarding modifications to an E-LSA AFTER it has been issued an airworthiness certificate?
Thanks for your help.
Joe Gores EAA 0377493


Hello Joe,
It?s ALWAYS legal to modify an experimental aircraft. That?s the nature of the experimental certification categories.
The only time when it?s not acceptable to modify an experimental aircraft is BEFORE the initial certification of an ELSA that?s built from a Consensus Standard-compliant kit from an SLSA manufacturer. This certification category, under the authority of 14 CFR 21.191(i)(2) requires that the aircraft be assembled in accordance with assembly instructions provided by the manufacturer. Since this application requires a Statement of Compliance (FAA Form 8130-15) from the manufacturer, the only way that statement can be valid is if the aircraft is assembled strictly in accordance with the manufacturer?s instructions.
However, once that ELSA gets its airworthiness certificate it is an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft just like any other, and you will find no regulation that restricts the modification of such aircraft. The only guiding document will be the aircraft?s operating limitations (issued by the FAA as a part of the airworthiness certificate) which will require an approval process to be adhered to if a major change is made. This does not prohibit the change, but does put in place a specific procedure to approve the change.
There is no FAA document that specifically says an ELSA (or any other experimental aircraft) can be modified. The more important issue though, is that you can?t find any regulation or guidance that would prohibit such modification. The maintenance and repair regulations found in 14 CFR Part 43 specifically do NOT apply to experimental aircraft, as stated in 43.1(b):
This part does not apply to any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft.
This specifically states that the maintenance and repair regulations found in part 43 do not apply to an experimental aircraft. That being the case, there is no restriction on who performs maintenance, repair or modification.
I hope this helps to explain the situation. If not, let me know what further questions you have.
Joe Norris
EAA 113615 Lifetime
Homebuilders Community Manager
EAA?The Spirit of Aviation
Phone: 888.322.4636 Extension 6806
Fax: 920.426.6560

To Joe Norris,
Thanks for the prompt reply to my E-LSA question. I appreciate you taking the time to send me such a detailed explanation. I found a PDF copy of the Nov/Dec FAA Aviation News at this website - http://www.faa.gov/news/aviation_news/2006/media/novdec2006.pdf - that supports our position that an E-LSA may be modified after it is certificated. On page 32 (pdf page 34) Edsel W. Ford, Jr says, "Modification of the ?light-sport kit? aircraft can be at will after original certification." Even though the FAA's newsletter is not a FAR regulation, it represents the FAA's interpretation of the regulations. I thought you might like to have something like this in writing to show others.
Joe Gores

Hi Joe,
The question I have is, what basis does ANYONE have to try to say that the aircraft cannot be modified? I can?t find anything anywhere that would support that side of the argument. I?m just wondering where that rumor is getting any fuel. I?d be interested if you can find out where the people who are supporting that side of the argument are getting their data.
Thanks!
Joe Norris
EAA 113615 Lifetime
Homebuilders Community Manager
EAA?The Spirit of Aviation
Phone: 888.322.4636 Extension 6806
Fax: 920.426.6560
www.eaa.org

 

[Peterk]

FUel

Joe,

The fuel is the ELSA RV12 builders that do not want to be forced to buy Van's avionics and engine...they want to buy their own. They have a difficult time understanding why if the ELSA follow-thru rule is so adamant, are they allowed to change it to the radios they want the day after it's certified...out the cost of two sets of radios. Funny thing to me is I were deciding on my own which radios to put in my RV12...these would be my choices!.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Joe,
They have a difficult time understanding why if the ELSA follow-thru rule is so adamant, are they allowed to change it to the radios they want the day after it's certified...

It actually wouldn't be able to be modified the day after (unless you did a lot of flying that day)
Part of the certification process of an E-LSA RV-12 will be completing the same post production flight test program that would be done by Van's on each S-LSA RV-12 if the were building them on a production line. This will probably take 5 hours or so as long as no serious problems are detected. After that, the test pilot (builder?) signs it off as complete and he then is fully certified as an E-LSA and could modify to what ever extent allowed by his operating limitations.

Symantics, I know...but it will have to be flown in the original configuration to complete the certification process.