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RV-10 Windshield fairing

D

ddnebert

Well Known Member
I have Weld-On'd the windshield to the cabin top and am about ready to lay the fiberglass for the lower windshield fairing. I've not done much glassing at all and was wondering if any other builders have advice on setting up and executing the layup process.

Do I prep "wet" the strips elsewhere and then lay them in, or lay the glass on the seam and wet it with a brush?

I have a slower West Marine epoxy hardener since I was working last in the heat of summer, is this OK for the layup?

Any other technique advice for this process?
 
I would suggest you read a couple of the EAA tips on glassing if uncomfortable with the glassing.

For mine I cut out all the plys of cloth. Wet glassed the cloth on the work bench covered with a plastic sheet, one at a time.

Laid each layer in place and smoothed with a brush or squeegee.

After the glass layers have set, you will still have to build up the shape will epoxy filled with glass balloons to get the shape right.

I used the west system and the slower cure hardener for all the work, it will just take a little longer to cure at lower temps. The plus if this task is a longer time to add each layer.

Eric Gohr
N410EG - flying, planning the first trip
 
Eric hit it pretty well. My Prop-jet buddy showed me the way Lancair taught glassing and I liked it so much that I abandoned the messy methods I used with model gliders. Basically you do it like Eric said. Cut your fiberglass and lay it over plastic sheet. Then, mix your epoxy and pour it over the glass (it takes some practice to get good at how much to use but it's easy to make corrections) and then cover with another plastic sheet ( you can get blue plastic in rolls like you can the fiberglass). Use a hand roller over the second sheet to force the epoxy into the glass and spread it around; roll any excess off to the side. If you've used oversized plastic sheet, the excess stays on the sheet instead of oozing onto the workbench. Once the glass has been thoroughly wetted an the excess pushed to the side, you will essentially have a sandwich; take a rolling cutter (available from ACS) and trim the plastic around the fiberglass piece. You can now lay the glass aside, toss the excess plastic and epoxy and clean up the little bit of ooze from the workbench.

For the actual layup, take a brush and wet the area where the glass will go with epoxy (you already scuffed it and cleaned with acetone, right?). Peel the plastic on the downside of the glass and lay the part in place. Then peel the top side, using your fingers ahead of the plastic to push the glass down well. Go back over it with a brush and work out bubbles (and even reposition it slightly) using a stippling motion. Trying to use a brushing motion will only drag the glass around.

When the last part is in place, you can use peel ply over the whole to help soak up any remaining excess epoxy and give your layup a finish with some 'tooth'. If you've never used peel ply before, you'll be amazed. When the epoxy has set, you just take an end and pull it away. "Riiiiip!" You feel like you'll be destroying everything you just did but it comes away just fine and leaves a nice surface for filling, final sanding, and painting.

Eric mentioned using epoxy with glass micro-balloons ('micro') for filler. You can also use flox (glass fibers) to create a filler that I prefer for larger depressions. I have used flox before using the peel ply and ended up with parts that required very little filling afterward; just be careful not to push the flox around as you apply the peel ply.

It sounds like more work than it really is and, if you don't rush yourself, it can be done without making much of a mess at all. Taking the time to clean up as you go really pays off.
 
Patrick has it pretty good there.

A couple of additional things-----

Peal ply is for when you are doing an additional layup after the first one sets. You peal ply the wet epoxy and forget it until the next layup is ready, then remove the peal ply and go to it.

This is a ten ply layup, do all of them at the same session. Peal ply is not needed, but you can use it on top of the last layer help to make it easier to smooth out.

As I recall, the plans show a 7" radius for the layup, make a template for this, dont expect it to be exact, it will be close in the center, and not at the sides of the windshield.

The interface of the windshield and the top cowl makes a big step----mix up some flox and blend this in before you start laying glass.

Having a helper is strongly encouraged. One with fiberglass experience is even better.

Good luck.
 
The unprofessional way

It seems there is more than one way to do this.
Here is what I did and I am not trying to talk you out of doing it the right way.
Do all the prep as is suggested for the lay up.
Prepare all the fiberglass strips as described in the plans.
I cut mine in half and have them overlap 6 inches in the center.
Brush epoxy on the intersection between window and fuse and apply fiberglass,stipple with a brush ensuring that glass is fully wet and lay up the next and on and on until all the layers are installed.
Takes about an hour and no helper needed.
I don't think fiberglass knows whether it gets wetted on a table or on an airplane.
There will be no epoxy on anything except where it belongs.
I never use more than 2 pumpstrokes of the west system slow cure epoxy to ensure the mix is fresh and wets out nicely.
The only downside I see to this method is perhaps a bit of oversaturation, but most of the excess epoxy will be soaked up by the subsequent layer.
I have learned this from other builders who like me have put on hundreds of hours on their airplanes that show no signs of an inferior windshield intersection fairing.

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This is good information!

The methods discribed above are very useful and timely informatin as I will be at that stage within the next month or so.

One thing that was not mentioned is the need for putting some black colouring in the first layup so as not to be able to see the glasswork from the inside. What sort of dye does one use for this???

Also, it was mentioned above to do ALL the lay-up at the same time, is this what you all do or should it be done in two or three steps?
 
Ivan Kristensen said:
One thing that was not mentioned is the need for putting some black colouring in the first layup so as not to be able to see the glasswork from the inside. What sort of dye does one use for this???
Click to expand...

Aircraft Spruce sells pigment for expoy.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/epoxyPigments.php

Ivan Kristensen said:
Also, it was mentioned above to do ALL the lay-up at the same time, is this what you all do or should it be done in two or three steps?
Click to expand...

All at once is certainly easier. Doing it in multiple steps would require more effort.

bob
 
flion said:
You can also use flox (glass fibers) to create a filler ...
Click to expand...

A minor nitpick: "Flox" is actually flocked cotton fibers. Milled glass fibers are also sometimes used as a resin filler, but it's different from flox.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
If you follow the plans you won't have much trouble, If you have access to a used black toner cartridge, the toner tints the epoxy quite well and there should be enough in it to do the whole job.. Try not to build up the plys on the verticle side too much or you will just have to sand it away. Take your time, use slow cure epoxy, do it all in one layup, wipe up the excess and peel ply cut into 1" strips will help to leave a smoother finish but don't expect to not have to sand. My layup after sanding was almost not in need of any filler. Just one pass of thin filler was all that was needed to complete it. I wetted the material on the fairing, that sandwich method it a first class PIA!! I have tried that several times, the cutter misses one thread and the whole layup is ruined when you pull it away. I agree, the cloth knoith no difference where it is wetted. Also the plans call for acid etching the area of the fairing, take care not to let the acid run into seams and such...I washed the whole area with a baking soda water rinse followed by a clean water rinse after doing the etch.
 
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Bob Kuykendall said:
A minor nitpick: "Flox" is actually flocked cotton fibers. Milled glass fibers are also sometimes used as a resin filler, but it's different from flox.

Thanks, Bob K.
Click to expand...

You're right, I was asleep at the wheel there for a moment. Either are better than microballons for larger filling jobs because the fiber gives some structure to the resin.

While I'm posting, Mike mentioned that peel ply is used where additional layups will be made. This is true and is largely why peel was developed in the first place. It leaves a uniform surface but with micro-depressions ('tooth') that bonds well to additional layups. However, peel has proven far more useful than that in practice. Over multiple layups (and I, too, suggest you do all the layups for the fairing at once) it helps prevent epoxy runs and sags and the surface it leaves is excellent for follow-up with filler, primer, etc. As mentioned elsewhere, a surface left by peel will still need to be filled and sanded but you can apply filler without additional prep (though if it has been exposed you should still clean with solvent before applying anything over it.)
 
patrick I want to ask for clarification on one point expressed in a post above. One post refers to using peel ply after each layup and doing all of the layups at once.

I understand "do all the layups at one time" to mean do all of the layering at one session................and I assume peel ply needs to be applied and left to soak up resin............so do you wait until you have them all laid until you put peel ply on.......or would you use peel ply at each layer......give it 30 minutes to set up some and then pull that off prior to the next lay up. This approach would concern me that I would dilodge layers when pulling off the peel ply while the lay up is still wet.
 
Peel ply is only used on the final layup. If you are going to use peel ply with multiple layups, you apply apply all the layups and then cover with peel ply and allow to cure. Peel ply won't work it's magic without curing.
 
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Yes, sorry if that wasn't clear. Peel only on the final layup. The plastic guys use peel where they have to let a layup cure before doing another layup later because it leaves a surface that allows good adhesion. For our purposes, though, applying several layers at once, each layer adheres well because the previous layer is still uncured. Stopping to do peel between each layer would only be a waste of time.
 
Fairing 'in'

OK, I filled the gap between the lexan and the cowling with thickened West Marine resin. The next day I laid the various layer in place, smallest to widest. It seems that the width of the last strip does not cover all the previous ones, given that it is supposed to abut the electrical tape. I also noticed that there is not the most graceful curve to the fairing so I mixed up some more thick resin and hand applied it. I'll have to do something else along the sides near where it meets the cabin top since the layup does not fill that gap fully. Guess it'll be some wonderfil there... Now for sanding and sanding.

Doug.
 
Thank you for the discussion

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the discussion on the RV10 fairing. It was very helpful. i have read thru it several times and plan to use some of the suggested techniques

i have purchased many of the items suggested and have secured help from a friend with lots of airplane fiberglass experience.

I should be ready to go in the next week or two.

Alan Muhs
Tucson, Az
 
One inch RC Hobby fine weave tape makes a really nice top edge. It is also great on the window transitions.
 
RC Hobby tape?

What is RC Hobby tape, how do you use it and where do I buy it.

Thanks in advance

Alan Muhs
Tucson, Az
 
ddnebert said:
OK, I filled the gap between the lexan and the cowling with thickened West Marine resin. The next day I laid the various layer in place, -------
Click to expand...

I would have done it all in one session, not let the filler cure first. Better adhesion for the cloth layup that way.
 
awmuhs said:
What is RC Hobby tape, how do you use it and where do I buy it.

Thanks in advance

Alan Muhs
Tucson, Az
Click to expand...

Any hobby shop should have it. Sig and Great Planes make it. It is thinner and much tighter weave than the normal stuff. Very handy.
 
[email protected] said:
Anyone using the ml skunkworks fairing? Seems like it easier to replace the windscreen if necesarry.
Click to expand...

Not really. If you use that fairing, three of the four sides are still glued in with glass covering the edges. So adding a fourth side doesn't add significant labor to replace. Pulse I like the look of the finished fiberglass better than the aluminum fairing. I wasn't impressed when I saw one at OSH.

There are several folks on VAF that have replaced the windscreen. Other than screwing up your paint job, a router makes a quick job at removal. But there is no way around that, since the cabin cover top and sides are still glued in place.
 
RC hobby tape

I found the RC hobby tape and used it to lap the joint between the windows and the cabin top. It was 2 oz. cloth so it left a very thin layer. I am pleased with the results thanks for the suggestion.

using many of the suggestions in this thread i did the fairing lay up today.

I used black dye. I did all 10 layers in one session immediately after filling the gap between the bottom of the windscreen and the fuselage with micro ballons.

I used peel ply to finish off the job.

Thanks to all

Alan Muhs
Tucson, Az.
 
[email protected] said:
Anyone using the ml skunkworks fairing? Seems like it easier to replace the windscreen if necesarry.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did, and I'm glad I did. It looks good and was easier to do than the fiberglass (I was a helper on another RV-10). I used Silpruf 2000 as a "bonding agent" and to give the black color on the inside. Of course, the rivets are the real bonding agents.

As far as the fiberglassing method, nobody has mentioned that it really helps if you put on two layers of Nitrile/Latex gloves. That way, you only have to peel off one layer of glove to scratch your nose....

John
 
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