RV-10 Rebuild

[BrandonDixon]

I recently brought home an RV-10 that had a small(ish) firewall forward fire and had sat for 3 years or so post fire. The price was good, and this gives me a path to having a 10 faster than I could build one.

The fire was just barely bad enough to justify redoing everything firewall forward. There were only a few wires that lost insulation, but there was a lot of soot. I'm still replacing all the wiring, hoses, controls etc. The engine is out for a full refresh. I'm doing a full panel refresh at the same time.

I've been studying the forums hard for a couple of weeks trying to get up to speed regarding the issues and decisions that I need to make in this process. The bottom cowling was damaged and I really like the look and performance of the Showplanes cowling, so l have it and a Barret CAI setup ordered. Question 1: I will need a spinner for the Showplanes cowling. I like the look of the polished aluminum Hartzell spinner but the cost seems steep. I have seen mention of places to get this at a discount, but I haven't identified a source. Does anyone have a conact to get the Hartzell at a reasonable cost? What are the best options for a composite spinner?

Question 2: The engine mount and nosegear are the older design. There was some slight heat damage to the powdercoat and it generally needs fresh powdercoating anyway. I understand that there may be a need to swap a tube for clearance with the CAI sump. I have done a visual inspection and I don't see any cracks, but is there a compelling reason to swap to the new mount and nosegear setup from Vans?

Thanks!

 

[N10KE]

I recently brought home an RV-10 that had a small(ish) firewall forward fire and had sat for 3 years or so post fire. The price was good, and this gives me a path to having a 10 faster than I could build one.

The fire was just barely bad enough to justify redoing everything firewall forward. There were only a few wires that lost insulation, but there was a lot of soot. I'm still replacing all the wiring, hoses, controls etc. The engine is out for a full refresh. I'm doing a full panel refresh at the same time.

I've been studying the forums hard for a couple of weeks trying to get up to speed regarding the issues and decisions that I need to make in this process. The bottom cowling was damaged and I really like the look and performance of the Showplanes cowling, so l have it and a Barret CAI setup ordered. Question 1: I will need a spinner for the Showplanes cowling. I like the look of the polished aluminum Hartzell spinner but the cost seems steep. I have seen mention of places to get this at a discount, but I haven't identified a source. Does anyone have a conact to get the Hartzell at a reasonable cost? What are the best options for a composite spinner?

Question 2: The engine mount and nosegear are the older design. There was some slight heat damage to the powdercoat and it generally needs fresh powdercoating anyway. I understand that there may be a need to swap a tube for clearance with the CAI sump. I have done a visual inspection and I don't see any cracks, but is there a compelling reason to swap to the new mount and nosegear setup from Vans?

Thanks!

The D-7709 spinner is available polished (-P) or not and should be available by special order through Vans if you are eligible. It fits the larger diameter Showplanes cowl.



The new engine mount and nose gear design is beefier and I’d recommend it if you are operating off a grass field. But it’s a pricey swap.

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Spinner. Shop around. Look for kit plane companies that incorporate the Hartzell 15” spinner. I bought two 14” polished aluminum Hartzell spinners for my RV-10s with James Cowl. The discount was ~30% or so over the Hartzell price and came new in the box directly from Hartzell.

Spinner. Jimmy at James Cowl has a 15” fiberglass spinner that will work. Give him a call.

Engine mount and new nose gear. Replace now while you have stuff apart and save the pain of doing it later. I did this for the owner of my first RV-10 build after we found badly worn bushings (like you could shine a light between the bushing and the engine mount). I’m amazed Van’s has not put out a SB on this, or even a notice to check for nose gear wobble at each Condition Inspection. I found it curious that when asked, we got the “you need the upgraded mount and gear leg” response from Van’s.

RV-10 Engine Mount Upgrade Conversion Kit

store.vansaircraft.com

Carl

 

[Mike S]

How was the fire controlled?

Dry chem extinguishing agents are not kind to aluminum. Neither is AFFF as I recall.

Keep an eye out for corrosion issues.

Good luck, you will love the way a 10 performs

And, in case I missed you earlier----------Welcome aboard !!!!!

 

[rocketman1988]

As others have said the show ones cowl requires a larger spinner, 15”. Obviously the spinner is dependent on what prop you have.

If you are adding CAI, and have an older engine mount, you will likely need remove and replace the lower crosstube on the engine mount to clear the CAI. Barrett did my cross tube.

If the original cowl was NOT showplanes, you will need to fabricate a new forward baffle set as the stock one will not work with the showplanes cowl and induction system.

Also, with the CAI, you will need an oil pickup tube/hose between the CAI sump and the accessory case where the oil pump is located. Talk to Tom at TS Flightlines. In line with this topic, it will be very difficult to remove/inspect the oil sump screen in the engine case when everything is attached. Many of us have gone to an oil scavenge screen located in the sump tee instead. Locating it in the tee allows for easy inspection at every oil change. There is a long thread about this elsewhere on VAF.

If I were doing this, I would definitely put the upgraded nose gear on. Buy once, cry once.

I would also be concerned about what type of extinguisher was used to put the fire out. As has been stated, some extinguishing agents are very bad on aluminum, and when used, the agents can get everywhere.

Another thing to consider with the showplanes cowl. If you have a three blade prop, consider splitting the lower cowl. It is a fairly easy and straight forward mod and it make cowling removal and installation a one person 5 minute job with now chance of scratching the paint.

 

[dmattmul]

I recently brought home an RV-10 that had a small(ish) firewall forward fire and had sat for 3 years or so post fire. The price was good, and this gives me a path to having a 10 faster than I could build one.

The fire was just barely bad enough to justify redoing everything firewall forward. There were only a few wires that lost insulation, but there was a lot of soot. I'm still replacing all the wiring, hoses, controls etc. The engine is out for a full refresh. I'm doing a full panel refresh at the same time.

I've been studying the forums hard for a couple of weeks trying to get up to speed regarding the issues and decisions that I need to make in this process. The bottom cowling was damaged and I really like the look and performance of the Showplanes cowling, so l have it and a Barret CAI setup ordered. Question 1: I will need a spinner for the Showplanes cowling. I like the look of the polished aluminum Hartzell spinner but the cost seems steep. I have seen mention of places to get this at a discount, but I haven't identified a source. Does anyone have a conact to get the Hartzell at a reasonable cost? What are the best options for a composite spinner?

Question 2: The engine mount and nosegear are the older design. There was some slight heat damage to the powdercoat and it generally needs fresh powdercoating anyway. I understand that there may be a need to swap a tube for clearance with the CAI sump. I have done a visual inspection and I don't see any cracks, but is there a compelling reason to swap to the new mount and nosegear setup from Vans?

Thanks!

Good luck on the rebuild. I have a 1-year-old new in the box motor mount and exhaust if you need in a hurry. I would need it replaced at some point in the future. Looks like Vans supplied are on back-order. I purchased as spares for the 2,000 hr. TBO or maybe the next one.

 

[BrandonDixon]

Thanks for all the information and offers. I should have mentioned that the prop with the airplane is the 2-blade aluminum Hartzell. It appears to be in very good shape, so I expect to keep it.

It looks like the fire was put out with a small hand held extinguisher that was from inside the plane. It must not have been a large fire. I'm replacing almost all the bare aluminum parts from the firewall forward anyway. The oil cooler mount seems ok, so it can probably stay.

On the new engine mounts, it appears that the lower cross tube was moved. Does this cross tube still need to be moved for the Barret CAI sump?

 

[rocketman1988]

You might ask Barrett about the new mount; I have heard that it does not need to be moved on the new mount.

Also, I would still try to determine what extinguisher agent was used. Be a shame to do all this work only to find a bunch of corrosion…

 

[RNB]

How was the fire put out? What kind of extinguisher?

 

[Richard Connell]

You might ask Barrett about the new mount; I have heard that it does not need to be moved on the new mount.

Also, I would still try to determine what extinguisher agent was used. Be a shame to do all this work only to find a bunch of corrosion…

I have the “new” mount. It was modified by Barrett at the time as I was one of the first people to have that combination circa 2019 - but seems to me like it was not necessary. I’d say it’s not required anymore but I’d double check with Rhonda.

 

[rocketman1988]

I have the “new” mount. It was modified by Barrett at the time as I was one of the first people to have that combination circa 2019 - but seems to me like it was not necessary. I’d say it’s not required anymore but I’d double check with Rhonda.

Yep, I have heard some have had to modify and others not; best to check with Rhonda.

 

[BrandonDixon]

How was the fire put out? What kind of extinguisher?

It was a dry powder type based on some residual, but I don't know any more details. The fire was only in the area around and aft of the fuel servo . I suspect that they put the fire out by spraying the extinguisher through the oil door. Fortunately, there wasn't any residue or fire damage on the aluminum airframe itself.

I'll call Barrett about the engine mount.

 

[dmattmul]

I suspect that they put the fire out by spraying the extinguisher through the oil door. Fortunately, there wasn't any residue or fire damage on the aluminum airframe itself.

Any more details how they "put the fire out by spraying the extinguisher through the oil door". I don't think that is possible but willing to learn. Any idea on root cause for this incident?

 

[BrandonDixon]

Any more details how they "put the fire out by spraying the extinguisher through the oil door". I don't think that is possible but willing to learn. Any idea on root cause for this incident?

I don’t think that is was a big fire

I was told that the fire was from over priming, but as I disassembled everything, the fuel fitting into the inlet side of the mechanical fuel pump was loose. Like not even finger tight against the o-ring. With the boost pump on I would expect it to leak some. Also the airbox was basically intact, so I don’t think that the fire started in there.

It certainly looks like some fuel collected on the bottom of the cowling and caught fire. Once the fuel was consumed, there wasn’t much still burning. These are all guesses on my part.

There was extinguisher residue down in the cylinder cooling fins, especially above the areas where the baffles are below the cylinders.

Here is a picture near ground zero of the fire:

 

[RNB]

I saw someone online pointing out a fire sale plane that should not be sold based upon the wrong kind of extinguisher being used for the fire.
When I moved into my hangar it had a giant can of wrong kind hanging on a hook.

 

[clutch22]

I hope it wasn't the same plane, but it really seems like it was one that was posted in the FB page for sale that had a "small fwf fire". I'd say it was within the last year or two, but looks like it's deleted from the RV-10 group page. I remember the photos showed a lot of residue inside the cabin everywhere. I hope they didn't just do a really good clean up job to hide what happened before you purchased it. I don't mean to be a downer, and it may not even be the same plane, but just be aware.
If it's all good, then enjoy the rebuild; it should be back to flying quickly!

 

[BrandonDixon]

I hope it wasn't the same plane, but it really seems like it was one that was posted in the FB page for sale that had a "small fwf fire". I'd san't y it was within the last year or two, but looks like it's deleted from the RV-10 group page. I remember the photos showed a lot of residue inside the cabin everywhere. I hope they didn't just do a really good clean up job to hide what happened before you purchased it. I don't mean to be a downer, and it may not even be the same plane, but just be aware.
If it's all good, then enjoy the rebuild; it should be back to flying quickly!

I appreciate the concerns, especially with regard to safety.

I don't believe that this plane ever had any extinguisher residue in the cabin. The full interior was in the plane when I got it, no visible residue. I have removed all the interior, carpet and instrument panel, all inspection panels, etc. still no residue or any signs of corrosion.

 

[Dad's RV-10]

I hope it wasn't the same plane, but it really seems like it was one that was posted in the FB page for sale that had a "small fwf fire"...

I was told that the fire was from over priming

The plane that was on FB was N10KQ.

There was info in the FB post that claimed the fire was caused by a leaking fitting on the Red Cube and that an ABC extinguisher was used.

 

[Dad's RV-10]

Question 2: The engine mount and nosegear are the older design. There was some slight heat damage to the powdercoat and it generally needs fresh powdercoating anyway. I understand that there may be a need to swap a tube for clearance with the CAI sump. I have done a visual inspection and I don't see any cracks, but is there a compelling reason to swap to the new mount and nosegear setup from Vans?

If you don't replace the mount with the new design, while it's disassembled and in need of new powder coat, you should take advantage of the opportunity to install the weld-in reinforcement parts found in SB 14-08-29.

The parts needed are WD-1001H Ring Brace and WD1001M-MOD Doubler.

 

[BrandonDixon]

The plane that was on FB was N10KQ.

There was info in the FB post that claimed the fire was caused by a leaking fitting on the Red Cube and that an ABC extinguisher was used.

View attachment 106318 View attachment 106320 View attachment 106326

Those posts are this airplane.

Interesting to see. The red cube was moved to sit on the top of the airbox next to the fuel servo. It's possible that the fuel for the fire was from there, but the fittings were tight when I removed them. They obviously could have been tightened after the fire. The swivel orb fitting at the fuel pump was very loose when I removed it. The hose was tight on the fitting, but the fitting was very loose into the fuel pump (like maybe two full turns).

Is moving the red cube to be in the line between the mechanical pump and the fuel servo common?

In the last picture, it looks like the fire was put out without removing the cowling. I have not seen a reason or any evidence that any extinguisher powder would be in the cabin. I'm not worried about the abc powder at the engine. The engine was basically a core, none of the electronics, hoses, wires etc will be re-used.

Is there some opportunity for corrosion that I'm not grasping?

Thanks!

 

[BrandonDixon]

If you don't replace the mount with the new design, while it's disassembled and in need of new powder coat, you should take advantage of the opportunity to install the weld-in reinforcement parts found in SB 14-08-29.

The parts needed are WD-1001H Ring Brace and WD1001M-MOD Doubler.


View attachment 106327View attachment 106328View attachment 106329View attachment 106330View attachment 106331View attachment 106332

For sure. The no crack option for the SB was in place. I was planning to weld it, if I keep the original mount. Still thinking about which way to go.

 

[jacoby]

Is there some opportunity for corrosion that I'm not grasping?

Read this report: https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-...-abc-dry-chemical-for-use-on-or-near-aircraft

It covers ABC and BC extinguishers and remediation options for each kind. Extinguishers blow a plume of dust and anywhere that dust landed is a potential for corrosion.

Hopefully a BC extinguisher was used and all you need to do is vacuum and flush the fay surfaces and apply CorrosionX. ABC is quite a bit more serious.

 

[Fenderbean]

Spinner. Shop around. Look for kit plane companies that incorporate the Hartzell 15” spinner. I bought two 14” polished aluminum Hartzell spinners for my RV-10s with James Cowl. The discount was ~30% or so over the Hartzell price and came new in the box directly from Hartzell.

Spinner. Jimmy at James Cowl has a 15” fiberglass spinner that will work. Give him a call.

Engine mount and new nose gear. Replace now while you have stuff apart and save the pain of doing it later. I did this for the owner of my first RV-10 build after we found badly worn bushings (like you could shine a light between the bushing and the engine mount). I’m amazed Van’s has not put out a SB on this, or even a notice to check for nose gear wobble at each Condition Inspection. I found it curious that when asked, we got the “you need the upgraded mount and gear leg” response from Van’s.

RV-10 Engine Mount Upgrade Conversion Kit

store.vansaircraft.com

Carl

Is this standard in newly ordered kits? Thanks

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Is this standard in newly ordered kits? Thanks

I assume Van's is still including the standard 13" fiberglass spinner assembly in their kits. If using a James cowl it needs a 14" spinner. A ShowPlanes cowl needs a 15" spinner. I believe Jimmy at James Cowl offers both (fiberglass).

Carl

 

[Fenderbean]

I assume Van's is still including the standard 13" fiberglass spinner assembly in their kits. If using a James cowl it needs a 14" spinner. A ShowPlanes cowl needs a 15" spinner. I believe Jimmy at James Cowl offers both (fiberglass).

Carl

Thanks for that since I plane to do the show planes cowl, so I need to remember that when ordering things. What about the engine mount?

 

[BrandonDixon]

Thanks for that since I plane to do the show planes cowl, so I need to remember that when ordering things. What about the engine mount?

BPE has indicated that the new style RV-10 engine mount does not need modification to clear their cold air sump and intake.

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Thanks for that since I plane to do the show planes cowl, so I need to remember that when ordering things. What about the engine mount?

Regardless of which way you go, if you have the old engine mount I recommend replacing it now. Here is post on the problem and the fix:

RV-10 Engine Mount / Nose gear leg play

During the condition inspection I hoisted the nose using an engine hoist to work on the nose wheel and gave the original 2012 build nose gear leg a wiggle test. The nose gear leg moved left and right about an inch and wiggled up and down a few inches even though elastomeric pads were making...

vansairforce.net

I assume if you want to use the ShowPlanes cowl you are either replacing the existing vertical draft engine with a Cold Air Sump horizontal injection engine, or you are going to rebuild the current engine replacing the sump. A new CAS engine from Thunderbolt will set you back ~$90K. No clue what a rebuild and needed new sump will cost.

On my current build (second RV-10) I went all out to get a new Thunderbolt with a Cold Air Sump, and have a modified James Cowl to go with it (I used a James Cowl on my original RV-10 with a stock vertical induction engine and liked it). I got my new engine before the prices really went crazy - and would not make that same choice today. As the saying goes, “the juice is not worth the squeeze”.

So unless you have a very fat wallet, you might want to review all this. But yes, get the replacement engine mount no matter which way you go.

Carl

 

[kiwipete]

I don’t think that is was a big fire

I was told that the fire was from over priming, but as I disassembled everything, the fuel fitting into the inlet side of the mechanical fuel pump was loose. Like not even finger tight against the o-ring. With the boost pump on I would expect it to leak some. Also the airbox was basically intact, so I don’t think that the fire started in there.

It certainly looks like some fuel collected on the bottom of the cowling and caught fire. Once the fuel was consumed, there wasn’t much still burning. These are all guesses on my part.

There was extinguisher residue down in the cylinder cooling fins, especially above the areas where the baffles are below the cylinders.

Here is a picture near ground zero of the fire:

For anyone reading this - it’s my understanding that fuel lines firewall forward should never be Aluminium. A solid line on an engine is going to crack and cause a fire or failure.
Anytime you deviate from plans get someone very knowledgeable to critique your work.

 

[Fenderbean]

BPE has indicated that the new style RV-10 engine mount does not need modification to clear their cold air sump and intake.

Was planning to do cold air induction, I Was just curious if it comes with new ordered kits now or if I will have to buy it sep.

I have the chance to buy my orig 2007 tail kit back, the current owner bought a finished plane. Anything I might need to update, rudder was complete and the horizontal was in cleco stage.