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RV-10 issues

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dspender

Well Known Member
Patron
Visiting Van's Mar 22 to decide between 10 (my wife's choice) and 14 (I believe my choice). Probably best to go with my wife. However three issues I have seen in threads I would like your thoughts. Regarding the 10.
1) Door locking issues. Are they resolved with Sean's locking system
2) Front landing gear collapse. Is this resolved.
3) Stall considerations, Ie aft stick and difficulties with recovery.
 
Dennis, there are several safety door locks available but mine is pure stock...you just have to physically ensure that they're locked..a non-issue if you follow your pre-flight and check the door warning lights.

Nosegear collapse has only happened during forced landings...again, a non-issue.

Stalls are so benign, it always amazes guys that I've checked out in mine. Van has hit a home run with this airplane.

Best,
 
I concur with Pierre.

The door issue is that it's reall easy to forgot to check the door and take off with only the front pin engaged, which usually results in the door popping open. The door then will most likely depart the aircraft.

You have options.

As part of the standard kit there are warning lights that will show if the pin is engaged in the door. Vans also includes their version of a middle door latching mechanism. In my opinion, the vans latch is the most hideous, minimally effective quick fix available.

Sean at plane around.com has a solution that is not only elegant, but appears to be foolproof too. I would recommend installing it over the Vans' solution that comes with the kit. Take a look at Sean's website. He has some other upgrades that I highly recommend as well.

I'm not aware of any RV-10 nose gear collapse that wasn't associated with an off airport landing or unusual landing situation. The 10 is more robust than the two sweaters, with the exception of the 14 which has a similar gear as the 10.

Like Pierre mentioned, stalls aren't an issue as long as you're loaded within the normal cg range.

As far as the choice goes, I think they are both excellent choices. It really depends on your mission. If you need four seats or haul a little more cargo, then the 10 is the best choice. If you don't need the extra room and like acro, then the 14 is a good choice. You can't go wrong with either decision. To be honest, if the 14 was available 6 years ago, I would have built that instead of the 10 since I'm about to become an empty nester and the build and operating expenses are less expensive.
 
Dennis. If you don't already know there is a very active EAA chapter over at Barstow and one of the members is building a -10 that is well along. If you have not seen one up close, perhaps you could hook up with the builder for an in person look and assessment. I fabricated my own door lock system similar to Sean's and also put an idiot light on the panel where I cant miss it just in case, triggered by a small micro switch on the aft door pins.
 
9GT said:
Dennis. If you don't already know there is a very active EAA chapter over at Barstow and one of the members is building a -10 that is well along. If you have not seen one up close, perhaps you could hook up with the builder for an in person look and assessment. I fabricated my own door lock system similar to Sean's and also put an idiot light on the panel where I cant miss it just in case, triggered by a small micro switch on the aft door pins.
Click to expand...

Also, Dick Sipp is in Midland if you want to see a flying RV-10. If you are up for a road trip, there are three flying and two about 99% done in the Columbus area. 9gt's is a bout have that distance.
 
I agree with the others....but I did build and fly a -10 with almost standard doors. The doors can be a problem, but......you have all the control. If you close them, they stay closed.

Nose gear ?????? don't know of any problems, when you land off field the gear may colapse.....but that may be better than going *** over end.

Stall. I tested mine aft of the CG during my phase I....but I am a stall wimp and did not let it get out of hand. Recovery at first sign of a stall are very straight forward.

Great plane, plenty of room.......
 
dspender said:
Visiting Van's Mar 22 to decide between 10 (my wife's choice) and 14 (I believe my choice). Probably best to go with my wife. However three issues I have seen in threads I would like your thoughts. Regarding the 10.
1) Door locking issues. Are they resolved with Sean's locking system
2) Front landing gear collapse. Is this resolved.
3) Stall considerations, Ie aft stick and difficulties with recovery.
Click to expand...

I agree with the others., no Gear issue, no stall issue. The doors are the weak point. As long as they are latched there is no issue. I have a practice of closing the passenger door from the outside before I get in the airplane. Then it's just a matter of making sure the pilot door is latched. I do like the vans SB latch although I purchased the aftermarket version. I believe it helps keep the door close to fully closed while engaging the pins and reduces the possibility that the aft pin falls outside the door.
 
I concur with Bob, Sean's latches are almost fool proof. The problem with Sean's latches is the we may become complacent and start not checking on the security of the doors and some anomaly/ failure may occur, causing the door not to be latched properly and we may miss it.
Having Sean's latch I try to discipline myself to do the checks always, but we sometimes get distracted with priorities and where as Sean's latches work so well repeatedly the doors now don't have that priority check in our minds.
 
No issues

Agree with others, there are no issues with the RV-10.
Tho "door issue"" is really a pilot issue.
You can add double and triple security for the door from a number of vendors
including 2 fixes from Vans. (lights and center latch)
Bottom line, if you forget to close the doors they will come off.
You'll enjoy the 10 and your wife will love it, notice my tag line?
 
RV-10

Aftermarket kits are cheaper than replacing a door and a lot less work. It's amazing how many customers have called and told me they lost a door prior to buying a kit.

Scott and I have both landed in Mexico Baja area on sand and soft dirt. Johnson Creek, Smiley Creek and other grass strips too. I believe with good soft field technique there is no issue with the nose gear.

After flying a lot of different aircraft, the Vans aircraft are very docile and they behave well in the stall compared to others.
 
It's a 10!

It really is a 10. You and your wife will love to plane. You will also be surprised at how many times you either have friends with you or you have the back filled to the brim with stuff, including bikes (full sized), a cooler, BBQ, shade tents, ect......
In my opinion there never was a door issue like others have said, just pilot error issues. The lights that show a door open are great if you install them and do your checklists. Sean's solution really is great and effective. There have been lots of other planes have issues RV-6's, 7's, -9's, -12's, Lancairs,ect... who haven't latched the door, became distracted and and crashed.

The -10 gear and -14 gear are completely different than other RV's. It is a very robust design.

If you are still on the fence it would be worth the money to fly both, and do a flight like your typical mission would be. If you are going to do short 15 minute flights rather than cross-country flights, you may change your mind.
Both the -10 and -14 will be roomy for your wife and stuff.

Either way you will have fun.
 
Dennis, when you stop by to see my RV10 I'll show you the center latch from Sean and how well it works. I even connected the sensors to my EFIS and I get a warning right on the screen that is impossible to miss if the doors are open, even if I could find a way to get them not to latch. I've had that door open and closed so many times and it's never even come close to missing the guides.

As for the stall, it's a very benign stall but there are some potential CG issues. Many guys (and the factory plane) fly with some shot in the baggage area for single pilot operations. But some of that can be negated with what you put behind the baggage wall besides just a battery. The propeller choice also makes a difference.

As I mentioned, seeing my plane and then the factory plane, you will get a good idea of the after-market options and the stripped down Vans approach.
 
I'm yet to fly but have fitted my doors. It's probably easy for me to say but I find it hard to see how you could NOT have the doors closed properly if you take a reasonable amount of care - especially with the door warning system fitted. Interestingly, the UK authorities (which are normally overly cautious about things) have not mandated any extra door latch. Having said that, with gull-wing doors if you don't latch them properly you are probably going to lose one - unlike forward hinged doors. Is that a design defect? In retrospect, it may have been better to have the hinge at the front - coolness factor notwithstanding........

One of our UK -10s had a failure at the suspension mount on the front gear. It didn't result in any collapse or colateral damage and seems like a one-off manufacturing defect - maybe. The aircraft had only done about 150 hours but was flown mainly off grass. VANS were notified and, as I understand it, the investigation was inconclusive.
 
I was the first builder to install Van's secondary door latch and thought it was great untill I discovered that it is possible to still have a door pop. Thought I was compulsive enough about closing the doors that it would not happen to me, but stuff happens.

I switched to Sean's cam lock, and demonstrated that it is idiot proof. I don't think it is possible to not get the doors locked with his setup.

Jim Berry
RV-10
 
I guess I will add my 2 cents..

I agree with the above posts regarding the doors. I too have the www.planearound.com center latch. It's hard to imagine how one could not have the door latched properly with this system. The only way a door would not get latched properly is if latch pin unscrewed from the latch arm. You would catch this immediately with the door latch warning lights. The only issue with the doors is they are not very robust and when opened, present a large surface area to the wind. You have to be careful on windy days that you point yourself into the wind and hold on to the door. I could see a situation in a 30kt wind that the door could get damaged. Some builders have added a pull cord to the bottom of the door to aid in this and to help pull the door down once you get strapped in.

In regards the landing gear. I can't imagine how one could damage the nose gear. It is a totally different design on the RV-10 than the other models. The only issues I have seen is the nose shimmy, typical of some nose castering systems. The main gear on the other hand for a large population of builders, exhibit shimmy. Vans refuses to address this issue for the flying aircraft. Not all have this issue, and some have tried various fixes to alleviate the problem. I have it about every 20th landing or so. The RV-14 has a new designed main gear that should not exhibit this problem.
With all that said, this is the most awesome aircraft for traveling or just cruising around. I was out yesterday with my wife loafing along around 145-155 kts burning around 9.5 gph.
The decision lies in the mission, and your desire to build. The -10 will take a lot more of your time, but will get you a lot more capability for travel and speed. I would do it all over again!
 
750-800 hours of RV10 use............

1) Door locking issues. Are they resolved with Sean's locking system What door issues!!! We can't even replicate the door pin issue. Build the doors rigid, use nice door pins and the sensors, and even the extra latching mechanism we installed is not required. We did install one as a precaution to inadvertent raising of the lever. As others have said if the door is actually able to have a pin misfit, it is a PIC problem.

2) Front landing gear collapse. Is this resolved. What problem and no it is not resolved as it was never a problem. Some early 6's maybe....but once again a pilot problem. We operate off a rough grass airfield and may of the fields we operate into are not that great. Only the majors are sealed. I think those who have problems just need to learn how to fly and land. Call me harsh :eek:

3) Stall considerations, Ie aft stick and difficulties with recovery. You clearly have not flown one. As others have said.

The questions you have not asked are 2v4 seats, aerobatic use, but I assume you have considered these and they are in the equation. Simply put, they are THE ONLY questions you need to answer honestly to make a decision between the two
 
dennis-

I am in Midland and I am considering the same options--the r-10 versus the rv-14 (kids out of the house in 4 yrs). There is at least one rv-7 and one rv-12 being built at Barstow. And as mentioned, Dick Sip has a very well equipped RV-10. The Midland EAA meetings are the first Thursday of the month. Dick attends the meetings, but spends the winters down south. Not sure when he will be back.

I am heading to Fun-n-Sun in April to check out the -14 and talk to vendors--tools, avionics, etc.

send me an email if you would like to discuss.

Ken
[email protected]
 
Stalls

For your first two questions, what everyone else said.

I will talk about stalls. While my -10 is still years away from flying (unless someone wants to make a significant monetary donation... :), I have had the pleasure of flying a couple gorgeous -10s built by gentlemen on here. I'm one of those guys that wants to see where the actual limit is.

I went into very deep approach and departure stalls in both a lightly loaded and a heavily loaded RV-10. In all cases, I couldn't have asked for a more honest, well behaved aircraft. With the wing fully stalled, I was able to hold full aft stick and control the "falling leaf" quite easily with rudder. Recovery was simple with just a slight relaxation of aft stick (power off required a slightly more positive recovery, but that's common sense).

Bottom line: Not sure where you heard any issues with RV-10 stalls, but from my fairly limited experience, you couldn't ask for a more benign and honest stall and recovery from an airplane...

John
40206 Wings (Build on hold)
 
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Hi Dennis,

Both planes are excellent and you're setting yourself up for a win either way. That said, it appears you've gotten some poor information (rather dis-information)...which is an ongoing issue trying to sort the wheat from the chaff online. In each case you listed, the "problem" simply isn't there. Doors will come off if you don't latch them correctly. A gear will collapse if one slams the airplane into the ground from 50' in the air after your elevator becomes diconnected from the control stick then go whistling through the weeds off the runway. Stalls can be an surprising if you load the airplane very aft, then deeply stall it (and haven't done it before).

There are tons of other "problems" I could list that are all symptoms; not causes. For example, leave a fuel line loose and with raw fuel spraying all over the exhaust it might catch fire. Design a complicated wonky non-standard fuel system and then poorly execute it and don't be surprised if the plane burns to the ground. Run out of gas and you WILL land somewhere unplanned. Leave the nut loose and not safetied on the nosegear and the nosewheel might fall completely off (yet you still land on pavement and the gear doesn't collapse). Stall the airplane from 50' and you might bend the main gear. Have two adult males stand on the steps simultaneously with folks in the back seat and the rudder may smack the pavement so hard it gets damaged. Put both electronic ignitions on one breaker, and when it pops the fan may quit turning. Anyway, I could go on for pages, the aformentioned are just a few specific to this model. Don't get me going on the other models!

My point is that sometimes perception and reality are two different things. Of course when someone causes their own misfortune they'd like to blame anyone else....but the facts don't support it.

RV 's are wonderful planes and better than most kits out there, but nothing is immune to human error. Thank goodness these planes are so forgiving! Have fun during your visit, tell them I said "hi" and good luck with your decision. Like I said, you'll win either way!

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein

PS...no flames intended towards anyone that may have participated in some of the aformentioned adventures! :)
 
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What everybody else has said is right on, very robust nose gear, of a totally different design than the standard "A" model. Very gentle stall, with plenty of warning. Doors, are just fine if built correctly, and closed correctly prior to flight.

If I were building, I would install Sean's latches for sure, but I am not going to cut up my flying plane with upholstered doors to retrofit one. His design is the best I have seen, bar none.

I did install door closed indicator lights, but not the system that VANS designed, as I thought it was kinda silly to utilize constant power to energise a relay to turn off a light. Mine are set up with a push button to test the doors, and a green light for each door if they are correctly seated. I did use the magnet switches from VANS kit however. Door check is in my pre engine start check list, and pre take off check list also.
 
Dennis,

If you have time after visiting Van's come over and I will take you and your wife flying in our RV-10. We are located about 5 miles away and have a well equipped RV-10.

I have over 800 hours in the RV-10, almost all of it from a grass runway.

There are no issues with the RV-10 Landing gear, it is very strong.


Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
 
Only one thing to add

All well said re: Doors, nose gear, and stalls.

Only one thing to add.

About 6 months before my first flight I visited Scott & Sean in SLC and, after looking over their planes, we went out for dinner.

I asked Scott: "is the RV-10 really as good as everyone says it is?"

Scott: "I fall in love with it again everytime I get in it."

After a year of flying mine, I know why.

Thanks Scott & Sean.
 
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Nose gear- no problem
Stalls- Have not had an issue but I don't do them a lot.
Doors- We bought ours so I didn't get the joy of fitting doors.:D Ours seem to have been done very well and the rear of the doors strike first so you can you simply pull the front of the door in. When the door issue came to a head I sat in it and tried to latch the doors with the rear pin out. It could be done but I had to consciously make it to happen. Therefore during the apparent battle of door construction "if" you can tweak it so the rear strikes first that would help. STILL CHECK THE REAR OF THE DOOR VISUALLY AND PUSH BEFORE TAKEOFF. I suspect some doors strike front first increasing likelihood of a rear pin out issue. If I were building one I would use Sean's latch. I consider the retrofit occasionally as it is.
 
RV-10 or RV-14

As you can tell the concerns you have are pretty much resolved. Consider that if you get the RV-14 you have no history as you do with the RV-10, do you want to be one of the early builders that discovers unknown gaps? with that said the RV-14 has many great upgraded features discovered from the RV-10, the landing gear is much improved for example.
The most important question you MUST ask yourself.. what are you and your wife planning to do with the plane? I hear time and again folks mention that they love their RV but they need to rent a plane when they want to take passengers.
I considered a 2 seater but in the end determined I could do more with the 4 seater, I have two kids now! and had two passengers in the plane this weekend for a flyin.. I have done a cross country with the plane loaded.. etc.. I have as much time with 3 plus people as I do flying solo. Make sure you get the right plane for what you will use it for.
The RV-10 is a solid plane- when you build it you can assure the doors are secured. My 5 year old can close mine without an issue- the doors will not close if the back is not sealed first. I tell passengers if there is any resistance. STOP! it should close with a slight pull. Thus far it has worked without an issue.
 
Mike S said:
I did install door closed indicator lights, but not the system that VANS designed, as I thought it was kinda silly to utilize constant power to energise a relay to turn off a light.
Click to expand...

It was specifically designed that way for a reason.
It was a simple way to make the indicator not show a safely latched door after a system failure such as a broken or shorted wire, etc.
 
Regarding the doors, see page 45-15 of the RV-10 plans. Instead of using the thin door blocks that come with the kit, get the thick aluminum ones and cut them such that the gap between the block and the door is very small (1/4" or less). This makes it nearly impossible to latch the door with one pin in and one pin out. I tried to do it purposely once and just barely got one pin in and one out, but I doubt I could have actually latched the door that way. That said, I still have it on my checklist twice (before engine start and before takeoff).

-Rob
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
It was specifically designed that way for a reason.
It was a simple way to make the indicator not show a safely latched door after a system failure such as a broken or shorted wire, etc.
Click to expand...

Understood, but you could have used a NC reed switch, and left the relay out. That way, current is only flowing when the light is activated.

Also, depending on what and where a wire gets broken or shorted, it may or may not work as designed.

I like the way mine is set up for another reason, and that is that it is part of the check list, and therefore requires an active action on my part, not an automatic warning that I may not notice for a minute or two if things are busy in the cockpit.

Either way, it is good to have something to verify the door latching status. Just a different knife to skin the cat.
 
You have all done an admirable job of allaying any misunderstandings I have held regarding the doors, nose wheel, and stalls with the 10. I can sense the strength of well deserved devotion you all have to your planes. I too will be there - one step at a time. I look forward to my visit at Van's Mar 22. I have flown in Dipp Sipp's 10 at Midland and was impressed. Our choice will most likely be the 10. I like the space advantages it offers and it is my wife's choice for family involvement.
 
Then again...

Not taking anything away from my earlier post, but I'd really like to have a -14 too! :)
And I just might some day...
 
What are there, over 400 10s now flying? Ton's of experience/advice/info out there on the 10. Not so much on the 14. All Van's aircraft are designed exceptionally well, but with anything new, there are always things that will be discovered, improved upon. Sean's door lock is an example. The life cycle of the 10 is more mature than the 14. Perhaps another factor for you to consider.
 
dspender said:
Visiting Van's Mar 22 to decide between 10 (my wife's choice) and 14 (I believe my choice). Probably best to go with my wife. However three issues I have seen in threads I would like your thoughts. Regarding the 10.
1) Door locking issues. Are they resolved with Sean's locking system
2) Front landing gear collapse. Is this resolved.
3) Stall considerations, Ie aft stick and difficulties with recovery.
Click to expand...

Dennis,
Everyone is dealing with your three issues, but the real issue is acrobatics. You can't do them in a 10 and you can in a 14. The 10 is a great cross country airplane, the 14 doesn't have any shade. Build time won't be that different, but there should be cost savings with the 14.
I won't even go into hangar fees, insurance, and taxes....
 
As I read about modifications many have made to Van's original design, many make sense to me. How do you catalog the variety of modifications you read about that you may wish to make when you reach that point in your build? My thoughts are to print the posting or website listed and file either mechanically or on a favorites pulldown in windows.
 
Sources

dspender said:
As I read about modifications many have made to Van's original design, many make sense to me. How do you catalog the variety of modifications you read about that you may wish to make when you reach that point in your build? My thoughts are to print the posting or website listed and file either mechanically or on a favorites pulldown in windows.
Click to expand...

These websites are a start, what I used to start my own list...

http://www.myrv10.com/tips/mods/index.html#Rudder_Trim
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/index.html
http://www.myrv10.com/tips/options.html

Tim's website is probably the best I've found, but do your own research, some of these suggestions might be a little dated.
 
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