Van's Air Force
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Rudder trailing edge
- Thread starter flyer76
- Start date
Raving Nomad
Member
Did that in the practice kit
I did that with the practice kit. It came out OK but not as good as backriveting. I'd prefer back riveting given the angle. You can hold a back rivet set flush with the skin but not achieve the same result with a squeezer.
I did that with the practice kit. It came out OK but not as good as backriveting. I'd prefer back riveting given the angle. You can hold a back rivet set flush with the skin but not achieve the same result with a squeezer.
flytoboat
Well Known Member
Paul,
Just did this in January. I didn't try the squeezer but given the angle I don't think the results would be pleasing. When back-riveting, make sure you get a few licks dead-on to swell the rivet good, then angle the gun to fill in the dimple.
We're not that far apart geographically if you need some moral support...
Just did this in January. I didn't try the squeezer but given the angle I don't think the results would be pleasing. When back-riveting, make sure you get a few licks dead-on to swell the rivet good, then angle the gun to fill in the dimple.
We're not that far apart geographically if you need some moral support...
rv7boy
Forum Peruser
As Elmer Fudd would say, "Be careful...be vewwy, vewwy careful." I was sailing along through my empennage kit and when I got to the rudder trailing edge, I had my first major re-do. Looking back, I think I messed up by overdimpling the rudder skins and overcountersinking the AEX wedge stock. Secondly, I read on someone's web site to modify a squeezer rivet set by grinding one to the appropriate angle for the trailing edge. Whatever happened, I ended up with a trailing edge that looked like an S-curve!
I fixed it by re-making it with a new AEX rudder wedge and oops rivets. BTW, I called the factory and their advice was to drill out all the rivets in the rudder skins and replace the rudder skins! YIKES
$$$
Not to knock the factory support, but sometimes it depends on who you get on the other end of the phone as to what kind of advice you get.
Anyway, proceed with caution when rivetting the rudder trailing edge. IIRC, I used the backrivetting method and was pleased with the result.
I fixed it by re-making it with a new AEX rudder wedge and oops rivets. BTW, I called the factory and their advice was to drill out all the rivets in the rudder skins and replace the rudder skins! YIKES
$$$Not to knock the factory support, but sometimes it depends on who you get on the other end of the phone as to what kind of advice you get.
Anyway, proceed with caution when rivetting the rudder trailing edge. IIRC, I used the backrivetting method and was pleased with the result.
RV7Ron
Well Known Member
The only tricky part for me was...when you get the assembly ready for match drilling the AEX (AEX installed between the skins), DONT drill perpendicular to the skin as we are so used to doing in normal situations. If you do it will create an obround on the far side skin. You want to drill perpendicular to an imaginary chord line just like the instructions show.
And I also used pro-seal...and alternated shop heads every other one...FWIW.
And I also used pro-seal...and alternated shop heads every other one...FWIW.
Raving Nomad
Member
Proseal and Alternate Shop Heads
I guess the bottomline is:
1. Use Proseal to hold it all together
2. Alternate rivet orientations (that's what they always did before some builder came up with the Proseal approach and it kinda became the standard)
3. Follow the plans when it comes to the angle for drilling the hole
4. DO NOT HURRY - this needs to be done nice and slow - I actually had slow music playing in the background to make sure I maintained a slow pace
5. Follow the instructions in the plans.
Good Luck!
I guess the bottomline is:
1. Use Proseal to hold it all together
2. Alternate rivet orientations (that's what they always did before some builder came up with the Proseal approach and it kinda became the standard)
3. Follow the plans when it comes to the angle for drilling the hole
4. DO NOT HURRY - this needs to be done nice and slow - I actually had slow music playing in the background to make sure I maintained a slow pace
5. Follow the instructions in the plans.
Good Luck!
pazmanyflyer
Well Known Member
I did
I started per plans and wasn't happy with how they started looking. So I asked the same question and was referred to using the squeezer. So what I ended up doing was squeeze the rivet half way (just as plans suggest) or so then come back and finish with the backrivet method. I followed the plans except for the starting of the rivets. I'm very pleased with how mine turned out. As stated before...Don't rush. You'll do fine.
I started per plans and wasn't happy with how they started looking. So I asked the same question and was referred to using the squeezer. So what I ended up doing was squeeze the rivet half way (just as plans suggest) or so then come back and finish with the backrivet method. I followed the plans except for the starting of the rivets. I'm very pleased with how mine turned out. As stated before...Don't rush. You'll do fine.
[email protected]
Well Known Member
switch sides frequently during riveting
however you end up driving the rivets it will help to keep the edge straight by alternating which side of the rudder you are driving on frequently... the worst method is to drive the same side in a continuous line as it will introduce quite a curl to the edge...
however you end up driving the rivets it will help to keep the edge straight by alternating which side of the rudder you are driving on frequently... the worst method is to drive the same side in a continuous line as it will introduce quite a curl to the edge...
SmittysRV
Well Known Member
I went to Home Depot and bought this 4 foot hunk of steel angle and put it on the edge of the work bench, along with a small sheet of 1/4" plywood under the rudder to make it the same height as the steel angle.
Then I followed the instructions word for word and the rudder came out perfect. The trick here is to not over-pound the rivets. That's when you will get a dip in your desired straight edge.
Then I followed the instructions word for word and the rudder came out perfect. The trick here is to not over-pound the rivets. That's when you will get a dip in your desired straight edge.
Angle iron
I also followed Smitty's plan and bought the angle from Home Depot and used it as a back rivet plate. The trailing edge came out straight as an arrow. I did however have to purchase a new AEX wedge from Vans because I went too deep on the counter sink. Good luck and go slow, constantly checking for straightness as you rivet.
I also followed Smitty's plan and bought the angle from Home Depot and used it as a back rivet plate. The trailing edge came out straight as an arrow. I did however have to purchase a new AEX wedge from Vans because I went too deep on the counter sink. Good luck and go slow, constantly checking for straightness as you rivet.
I seem to remember that if you decide to squeeze the TE rivets, you must alter the rivet sets by grinding a matching angle on the set faces. Something like 9 degrees. Then insure the sets don't rotate in the squeezer as you work.
I used the back rivet method with a 2X gun. Start with the gun perp to the rivet. Then tilt the gun perp to the skin over the next 2 seconds while holding the trigger. It takes longer to tell it than to do it. I did NOT alternate the direction of the rivets. I did use a random riveting pattern. I flipped the assembly over for finish riveting per the preview plans.
I also used lots of weight (ten 5lb bags of potting soil on a shelf board) distributed evenly over the top surface holding everything down.
I used the back rivet method with a 2X gun. Start with the gun perp to the rivet. Then tilt the gun perp to the skin over the next 2 seconds while holding the trigger. It takes longer to tell it than to do it. I did NOT alternate the direction of the rivets. I did use a random riveting pattern. I flipped the assembly over for finish riveting per the preview plans.
I also used lots of weight (ten 5lb bags of potting soil on a shelf board) distributed evenly over the top surface holding everything down.
Different Assembly technique for Rudder Trailing Edge
In a previous post I mentioned I was not happy with the Rudder Trailing Edge. There was a gap. It looked to me like I had not gotten the epoxy thin enough before it set while assembling the trailing edge. I called Vans and they told me the epoxy is not required for structural strength, its just there to help the builder keep the part aligned during assembly, making it easier to get a straight edge. I described my trailing edge and Vans told me it was fine to fly with.
I was still not happy so I decided to re-do the trailing edge. I had a plan that would allow me to assemble the trailing edge in a jig that ensured the rudder was straight, without using any epoxy. Here is an alternate way to assemble the trailing edge.
I drilled out all the rivets on my trailing edge. I bought a new wedge piece. I also bought a rivet squeezer die that I could modify. I filed the top of the die to a 10 degree angle. Most of the epoxy came out with the old wedge piece after I removed the rivets.
I then assembled the trailing edge o the angle iron per Vans standard instructions. I removed the rudder from the angle iron and I bored out every fifth cleco hole on the angle iron so that it was big enough for the modified rivet squeezer die to fit through. I fastened the angle iron to my work bench in such a position that I had assess to the bottom side of the angle iron while the rudder was assembled and clecoed to it. I then reassembled the rudder on the angle iron. I now had access to set every fifth rivet by going through the angle iron while the rudder was held by the other clecos. I used my hand squeezer on those rivets I could access. I removed the rudder after setting on-fifth of the rivets. It was very straight and the gap was much smaller. I re-installed the rudder on the angle iron, but offset a couple of holes. I now had another set of rivets I could access through the angle iron. Again, the rudder remained straight and the gap was small and consistent. In this way I partially set all the rivets in the trailing edge.
I then removed the rudder from the angle iron and used my hydraulic squeezer with the modified rivet die to completely set all the rivets equally.
Result: I still have a small gap, much smaller than before. I think if I had used this technique the first time the gap would have been even smaller. I am very happy with the Rudder Trailing edge now.
In a previous post I mentioned I was not happy with the Rudder Trailing Edge. There was a gap. It looked to me like I had not gotten the epoxy thin enough before it set while assembling the trailing edge. I called Vans and they told me the epoxy is not required for structural strength, its just there to help the builder keep the part aligned during assembly, making it easier to get a straight edge. I described my trailing edge and Vans told me it was fine to fly with.
I was still not happy so I decided to re-do the trailing edge. I had a plan that would allow me to assemble the trailing edge in a jig that ensured the rudder was straight, without using any epoxy. Here is an alternate way to assemble the trailing edge.
I drilled out all the rivets on my trailing edge. I bought a new wedge piece. I also bought a rivet squeezer die that I could modify. I filed the top of the die to a 10 degree angle. Most of the epoxy came out with the old wedge piece after I removed the rivets.
I then assembled the trailing edge o the angle iron per Vans standard instructions. I removed the rudder from the angle iron and I bored out every fifth cleco hole on the angle iron so that it was big enough for the modified rivet squeezer die to fit through. I fastened the angle iron to my work bench in such a position that I had assess to the bottom side of the angle iron while the rudder was assembled and clecoed to it. I then reassembled the rudder on the angle iron. I now had access to set every fifth rivet by going through the angle iron while the rudder was held by the other clecos. I used my hand squeezer on those rivets I could access. I removed the rudder after setting on-fifth of the rivets. It was very straight and the gap was much smaller. I re-installed the rudder on the angle iron, but offset a couple of holes. I now had another set of rivets I could access through the angle iron. Again, the rudder remained straight and the gap was small and consistent. In this way I partially set all the rivets in the trailing edge.
I then removed the rudder from the angle iron and used my hydraulic squeezer with the modified rivet die to completely set all the rivets equally.
Result: I still have a small gap, much smaller than before. I think if I had used this technique the first time the gap would have been even smaller. I am very happy with the Rudder Trailing edge now.
Rudder Trailing Edge
I used proseal on all my trailing edges, got two pieces of 1"x1"x1/16" aluminum and clecoed these to the trailing edge while the proseal set up. This angles keep pressure on the proseal between the rivet holes to eliminate the waviness. Then used standard squeezer dies to partially set every fourth rivet. Set the squeezer so it doesn't touch the skin but expands the rivet in the hole so it won't come out. Then back rivet. Flip rudder over then do the next rivet in line and every fourth rivet.
I used proseal on all my trailing edges, got two pieces of 1"x1"x1/16" aluminum and clecoed these to the trailing edge while the proseal set up. This angles keep pressure on the proseal between the rivet holes to eliminate the waviness. Then used standard squeezer dies to partially set every fourth rivet. Set the squeezer so it doesn't touch the skin but expands the rivet in the hole so it won't come out. Then back rivet. Flip rudder over then do the next rivet in line and every fourth rivet.
Bullseye
Well Known Member
Picture the rudder down on the workbench. If you hold the drill perpendicular to the rudder surface closest to the ceiling, the drill will be angled (about 9? with respect to the workbench). Now, just for illustration purposes, angle the drill perpendicular to the workbench (straight up and down).
The actual angle you want to drill is halfway between those two angles. (You want to drill perpendicular to the chord, which is half the angle of the upper side skin if it is laying on a flat workbench.)
Lots of good advice and opinions but let's keep in mind that this is an RV-10 kit where, unlike the other kits (and practice kit), both skins and the wedge are prepunched. All you have to do on the -10 is cleco it together and run a #40 drill through the 3/32" holes.
Any of the methods discussed about riveting the trailing edge will work fine, including the technique that Van's describes.
Bob
Any of the methods discussed about riveting the trailing edge will work fine, including the technique that Van's describes.
Bob
Then if that wedge, was used on the other kits that use a wedge, you could just use the wedge to drill the first skin, and then cleco the wedge into place.... set the other skin in place and back drill it.
Why couldn't you use soft (no dimple) rivets no the trailing edge??
