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Revisions to Plans

txaviator

Well Known Member
I recall this being hashed out within the forums a few months ago, but even after searching, I cannot find the specific answer and/or that old thread. On the RV-12 (in my example) I go to the Van's website to print revisions. Section 21, for example, prints out 20 individual pages! :eek:

Since I don't have a giant printer or any big paper, I am going cross-eyed looking at the 8.5" x 11" printouts. Short of comparing these tiny printouts to the original plans, is there ANY other way to determine what Vans wants you to do differently? Perhaps I'm just not noticing the obvious, but how do you know what has really changed? Shouldn't a revision be in italics, bold, underlined? Surely I am missing the obvious? Please advise.

Thanks-
 
Short of comparing these tiny printouts to the original plans, is there ANY other way to determine what Vans wants you to do differently? Perhaps I'm just not noticing the obvious, but how do you know what has really changed? Shouldn't a revision be in italics, bold, underlined? Surely I am missing the obvious? Please advise.

Thanks-

No, :confused:,Yes, No

However, I understand that Vans will be addressing this issue soon.
 
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It makes good sense

I had some of the same questions.
then I came to the conclusion that vans changes the drawings for the new builders and sends instructions for the current builders.

Think about it
It makes good sense




I recall this being hashed out within the forums a few months ago, but even after searching, I cannot find the specific answer and/or that old thread. On the RV-12 (in my example) I go to the Van's website to print revisions. Section 21, for example, prints out 20 individual pages! :eek:

Since I don't have a giant printer or any big paper, I am going cross-eyed looking at the 8.5" x 11" printouts. Short of comparing these tiny printouts to the original plans, is there ANY other way to determine what Vans wants you to do differently? Perhaps I'm just not noticing the obvious, but how do you know what has really changed? Shouldn't a revision be in italics, bold, underlined? Surely I am missing the obvious? Please advise.

Thanks-
 
I recall this being hashed out within the forums a few months ago, but even after searching, I cannot find the specific answer and/or that old thread. On the RV-12 (in my example) I go to the Van's website to print revisions. Section 21, for example, prints out 20 individual pages! :eek:

Since I don't have a giant printer or any big paper, I am going cross-eyed looking at the 8.5" x 11" printouts. Short of comparing these tiny printouts to the original plans, is there ANY other way to determine what Vans wants you to do differently? Perhaps I'm just not noticing the obvious, but how do you know what has really changed? Shouldn't a revision be in italics, bold, underlined? Surely I am missing the obvious? Please advise.

Thanks-

Scott McDaniels has answered this question many, many times. To paraphrase, and he will correct me if I am wrong, if you complete an assembly step and Van's issues a revision to the page, you do not have to implement the revised step UNLESS (you desire) or Van's issues a specific bulletin that applies to the step and then as such, should be implemented by all builders.

All of us have been concerned as some of the revisions are minor and it takes a bit of time to discern what has changed on the .pdf file. SOMETIMES it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine what has changed on the page!!!

Maybe Scott and Van's Engineering can take a look at what FltPlan.com has done wiith each revision to their approach plates. If we had such a feature with each RV-12 plan revision, in my opinion, it would be the cat's meow.

Look at this web page and scroll down to "New Feature - Graphically See What's Changed on Approach Chart Revision" Click here for the link.

VERY NEAT!

Chime in and let Scott and Van's know the feature would be a welcome addition. I sent an e-mail to FltPlan at the beginning of December in an attempt to determine their software solution, but, did NOT receive a reply. Gonna have to send them another e-mail and tell them I did not receive a reply!!
 
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I had some of the same questions.
then I came to the conclusion that vans changes the drawings for the new builders and sends instructions for the current builders.

Think about it
It makes good sense

Believe me, I have thought about it. And it still doesn't make sense. If a new builder orders a sub-kit after the revision was made, they get the new prints. That's great for them. But the 'instructions' they send (post to their website) for current builders, don't tell a current builder what has changed- versus their plans they received with the kit. Before posting the PDF to the web, why not take the revised sentence / section / drawing, or whatever, and highlight it in bold? Takes a few seconds for the person posting the updates to the web...

However, it is what it is, I suppose. I am not trying to create an argument. I am simply wondering why it becomes so difficult for current builders to interpret whatever the factory thought was so important to change?
 
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Scott McDaniels has answered this question many, many times. To paraphrase, and he will correct me if I am wrong, if you complete an assembly step and Van's issues a revision to the page, you do not have to implement the revised step UNLESS (you desire) or Van's issues a specific bulletin that applies to the step and then as such, should be implemented by all builders.

That's what I thought I recalled Scott mentioning in a previous thread that I couldn't readily locate. Thanks for posting that! I value all input, especially Scott's when it comes to questions concerning factory instructions, and I am glad he monitors the forums.

Again, thanks for the replies.
 
It's too simple

Gary, I couldn't agree with you more. There is only one answer to your question -sorry Van's, hate to be critical, but from my point of view, here it is.

Van's doesn't care.

They know that we can figure it out eventually.

I have to assume that their drawings are done electronically - even if they are not, and I was the boss of the drafter that does the work, then he/she would be fired. Since that hasn't happened then I think that Van's doesn't care - too simple.

Whenever this comes up, someone from Van's answers here in defense of their current practice. It's always an argument that defends 1920 era policy. Too bad.
 
Gary, I couldn't agree with you more. There is only one answer to your question -sorry Van's, hate to be critical, but from my point of view, here it is.

Van's doesn't care.

They know that we can figure it out eventually.

I have to assume that their drawings are done electronically - even if they are not, and I was the boss of the drafter that does the work, then he/she would be fired. Since that hasn't happened then I think that Van's doesn't care - too simple.

Whenever this comes up, someone from Van's answers here in defense of their current practice. It's always an argument that defends 1920 era policy. Too bad.

Ed,
I guess I'm the guy you are probably talking about...
I have never been defending 1920's policy (I don't think anything from that time period relates to what was done in the RV-12 drawings) and I am not here to so so again. I believe all I have ever done is explain the process.

I think it is unfair to state that because Van's doesn't implement a change that some people wanted, that it means they don't care.
Ask any of the early RV-12 builders... I think they will tell you that a lot of things changed as a result of feedback from builders and potential builders.

The plans revision format was a business decision. It is not one that everyone has liked, but operating a business is 10s of thousands of little decisions, and not all of them will be liked.

Having said that, it is my understanding that the revision process is going to itself be revised. Believe me, this was not an easy decision because it will involve a lot more than just a few seconds of work before a page gets published on the web site. Once it happens it likely wont have much impact because the design is now pretty mature and there aren't much in the way of revisions happening anymore, other than the landing gear change, and engineering was so buried trying to get that out as fast as possible there was no way a process change as significant as the revision system change could be done at the same time. When will this happen? I don't know.

Marty pretty much described the way the current process is intended to work.

If a page you have already completed gets revised, but no notice to builders is sent out, then you can ignore it if you have already built past that point (it was most likely a correction for a typo, less than clear instructions, etc, and if you were able to build past with out the info, then you don't need it).

In the case of a revised page that a builder has not yet completed, then they should use the new page (take advantage of what ever correction were made... it shouldn't matter whether they know what the change was).

Probably the biggest issue with the process is when physical changes were made and builders were instructed to use the new drawings (even if they had already competed the steps) to implement the change. I think this is what most of the complaints have resulted from. The builder had no way to know what had been changed without spending time comparing the old drawing with the new. Now that revisions have become rather rare, I think this is a much smaller problem, but it will be totally resolved when the process is eventually changed.
 
Printer

If you can download the drawings in pdf or maybe even dwg, take the files to a blueprinter. They will print them for a couple bucks a sheet. They will be prints - not blueprints so they will be equal to what you would get from Vans. I have a plotter so I can print myself, but I often take pdf's in to get printed when I have a couple hundred I need done.

I have to agree that knowing what the change was would sure make it easier to see if you thought you wanted to make the change or not. At least then you get to make the choice yourself.
 
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Use Legal Size Paper

Gary, I use legal size 8 1/2 X 14 paper on my basic printer. Setting it for landscape and shrink to fit, I get a very readable prints. I also do two sided printing. They are very readable, and I use them to build from. Not to say that the 11 X 17 isn't a bit better, but these slightly smaller prints work just fine. Now, when all of the dust is settled, and you are nearing completion of you project, you can have a final set printed as stated above. From there, your only concerns will be bulletins that are issued via snail mail, or email form Van's.

As far as comparing the prints, I bring both sets to the table. My wife takes one set, and I take the other. As I read one, she tells me of any changes. Then, I can make the decision as to what action I want to take. Scanning the drawings will usually reveal any important changes in the drawing itself. It's really not that big of a deal. Relax, enjoy, and happy building.

Tom
 
Staples

I bring all revised files on a thumb drive down to my local Staples and have them print on 11" X 17" paper. They can do it front & back in the orientation you want. Can't tell the difference vs. what Vans sends me. 10 or 15 cents a page.
 
POH, MM?

How about the POH and MM - a bigger problem IMHO, that affects everyone - long after the build is over.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
How about the POH and MM - a bigger problem IMHO, that affects everyone - long after the build is over.

Bob Bogash
N737G

Actually, those two documents do pretty much follow the industry standard regarding revisions (compare it to the way they do it in the Rotax documentation).
There is a dated revision page at the front of the document that details what pages have changed and when. All you need to do to confirm whether the document you are using is up to date is compare the rev level of the revision page, to the most recently issued one on the web site.
 
POH and MM Revisions

I've posted on this before, Scott.

Pray-tell, perhaps you could tell me what the changes are in the POH - say, for example, the Abbreviated Checklist, pages ii,iii, iv and v between Rev 0 to Rev 1 ? (Skyview Version). Or ANY of the "revised" R1 pages in the whole POH, for that matter?

The same applies to the MM. Why was Rev 4 released? The only changes appear to be the Cover Page and page ii - the Revision Summary.

Furthermore, nowhere have I found what the changes might be. A change in torque or lubricant, approach procedure or recommended airspeed are all vital pieces of information for the owner/operator.

Dynon, in contrast, provides details of all their changes - for example Rev "L" to the Pilot's User Guide released 24 Dec 2012 - Page vii details 14 changes made in the revision. Likewise in Rev "M" to their Installation Guide.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
I've posted on this before, Scott.

Pray-tell, perhaps you could tell me what the changes are in the POH - say, for example, the Abbreviated Checklist, pages ii,iii, iv and v between Rev 0 to Rev 1 ? (Skyview Version). Or ANY of the "revised" R1 pages in the whole POH, for that matter?

The same applies to the MM. Why was Rev 4 released? The only changes appear to be the Cover Page and page ii - the Revision Summary.

Furthermore, nowhere have I found what the changes might be. A change in torque or lubricant, approach procedure or recommended airspeed are all vital pieces of information for the owner/operator.

Dynon, in contrast, provides details of all their changes - for example Rev "L" to the Pilot's User Guide released 24 Dec 2012 - Page vii details 14 changes made in the revision. Likewise in Rev "M" to their Installation Guide.

Bob Bogash
N737G

Bob, regardless what Dynon does, the common standard in aviation user documents (Maint manuals, POH, etc.) is a revision page that tells you what pages were changed and when, and what the current rev. level is. Look at the Rotax engine documentation, any documents published by the FAA... pretty much everyone does user documents this way.
An example would be the POH for the Cessna Sky Catcher. You can find a copy HERE. The revision section starts on page 13.
 
Yes, Scott - they ALL have a List of Effective Pages. I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. The question isn't what the Revision Level of a particular page is - the question is WHAT has changed on the page? WHY was the Revision released?

In my post, I cited some specifics - revised pages that seemed identical to the pages being replaced, and a revision that had no revised pages - except for the cover page and the page with the List of Effective Pages.

Why am I downloading, printing, and inserting a Revised page that has NOT been revised? And, if revised, WHAT change has been made that I should be aware of?

I don't know how to state this more clearly or in some other way. As I stated in another post, I spent a few years writing and releasing aviation manuals. And MANY more years receiving and inserting them in the manuals! I described how a Revision entailed a List of Effective Pages, a Description of the Changes, and a Vertical Bar next to the Changes in the Manual. That was at Boeing. Some people continually point out that Vans is not Boeing. But - I notice that Cessna uses the Boeing system I described, with Vertical Bars defining changes alongside the affected text and another bar alongside the page number.

As for the FAA, anyone subscribing to the FARs is familiar with the long preambles describing the changes incorporated and discussing the reasons for the change. FAR vendors, such as Jeppeson, release whole documents describing the changes - such as can be found here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...jICICQ&usg=AFQjCNHBYMkz_AJug-fdlqQ2uo1OIFFU5w

How else are you supposed to know what's changed???

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Chemical industry. On a drawing (like a P&ID) the revision number and date is shown in the title block. When you do "Revision 1" the things you change on the drawing have one or more "clouds" around them, and a little triangle with a "1" in it next to those clouds. On the edge of the drawing is a little column or area for notes like "Revision 1 - added requirement for pro seal when installing rear window to seal the cut edge."

That's pretty simple and it was a surprise for me as a 1st time builder to not see something so obvious and simple done on revised drawings.
 
Exactly

Bill hits the nail on the head exactly. It would be great to see Van's adopt a procedure like the one that Bill described. Not only in the RV-12 plans but all future plans.

I appreciate the comments of all contributors here - especially those of Scott who is available to us all and who handles his communications with compassion and class. Thank you all.
 
....especially those of Scott who is available to us all and who handles his communications with compassion and class. Thank you all.

Agreed! It's nice to have a voice from the factory on the forums, active, helpful, and even posts on the weekends!
 
The standard way

This is the standard way most architects handle revisions ( cloud and a triangle with the revision number in it )

However the next time I build the same building the new plans show the revision with no cloud or triangle as in the new drawing this is not a revision.

Vans would have to make new drawings for each.

Note: Each RV12 will have a manufacture date on it and all will not be the same model year.

Vans sends drawings and instructions for the revision and they should be added to your own as built drawings ( if adopted ).

The way Vans handles this is a good business decision, and makes perfect sense.

Remember adding more cost to vans is adding more cost to us.

My view



Chemical industry. On a drawing (like a P&ID) the revision number and date is shown in the title block. When you do "Revision 1" the things you change on the drawing have one or more "clouds" around them, and a little triangle with a "1" in it next to those clouds. On the edge of the drawing is a little column or area for notes like "Revision 1 - added requirement for pro seal when installing rear window to seal the cut edge."

That's pretty simple and it was a surprise for me as a 1st time builder to not see something so obvious and simple done on revised drawings.
 
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Joe - not exactly. In the petrochem industry practice, when a Revision 2 (or 3,4,...x) of a drawing is issued, the clouds on Revision 1 have been deleted (but not the Revision 1 note.) The clouds are then on the changes made just in Revision 2. You see, if you already had revision 1, you would want to know the differences. If Revision 2 is the 1st drawing you get, you do not need to see all of the prior changes, and the drawing would be too messy if you did. This simple method serves all users. The "drafting department" did not keep master copies of each revision as issued. Although electronically, this would not be an issue.

In my day, the "clouds" had to be "erased" on the drawing, using an "eraser" (there were even "electric erasers! Wow!) Now you just click on the cloud and hit the delete key.
 
Bill you are making me feel old.

In my day ( a long time ago ) we also used electric erasers.
And I still have mine. ( See photo )

mp1010929_R.jpg

Then we started to use pin registered ink on mylar drawings and just removed the sheet that had the cloud and then reprinted it.
It only takes a few minutes to compare and mark the new drawing yourself and you will have a better understanding of the change.

My view


Joe
In my day, the "clouds" had to be "erased" on the drawing, using an "eraser" (there were even "electric erasers! Wow!) Now you just click on the cloud and hit the delete key.
 
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Description of Manual Revisions

Electric erasers??? I still have my white block K&E drafting eraser, and their slip-sticks, triangles, protractor, drafting board - the whole K&E line-up. Wonder if they are even still in business?


Bob, regardless what Dynon does, the common standard in aviation user documents (Maint manuals, POH, etc.) is a revision page that tells you what pages were changed and when, and what the current rev. level is. Look at the Rotax engine documentation, any documents published by the FAA... pretty much everyone does user documents this way./QUOTE]

Here are some more LSA POH Manuals, in addition to the Skycatcher, that describe the revision changes, mark the changed content on the page, and - of course, have a List of Effective pages - the Carbon Cub pages 0-3 to 0-5 is excellent:.

Carbon Cub:

http://www.cubcrafters.com/pdfs/ccss/ssc10000afm.pdf


Flight Design:

http://documents.flightdesignusa.com/20090101 - CTSW LSA - MM rev. 7 - AU 010 02000_7.pdf

Pipistrel:

http://www.pipistrel-usa.com/manuals/ALPHA-Trainer-LSA-POH.pdf

Piper Sport Cruiser

http://czechsportaircraft.com/pdf/POH-R3.2_V7.pdf


ASTM F2746 - 12 is the standard for LSA POH's, but I'm too cheap to spend $36 for 3 pages - it can be purchased here:

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2746.htm

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
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