I am a RV 9 builder and will be riveting my HS over Thanksgiving weekend. Can you experienced builders give a newbee some advice for dimpling and riveting. I plan to jump in full throttle over that 4 day period and knock the snot out of this empennage. I have been playing with my Avery dimplers and riveters, but I am a little nervous about laying the 3X hammer on my skins. Any advise will be greatly appreciated.
Van's Air Force
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Ready to Rivet
- Thread starter D&M Dan
- Start date
Paul Eastham
Well Known Member
Hi Dan, welcome to the group.
Perhaps this is not advice that you want to hear...but if you're nervous riveting, you should start with the VS. The riveting is much easier there, and there is no dependency between the HS and VS so feel free to skip around. On the HS you have to start out with the nose rivets, which are hard even once you're fairly skilled. Van's is pretty cruel to have you start with those.
A few other tips...
- Practice first, with similar layers to get the pressure and feel calibrated right
- Generally speaking, you don't want to press down with all your might on either side. Even pressure, square to the rivet, is the key on both sides.
- Whenever starting in a new area, start with short bursts of the gun until you get a feel for how things are going to bounce. You don't need to do it all in one shot.
Perhaps this is not advice that you want to hear...but if you're nervous riveting, you should start with the VS. The riveting is much easier there, and there is no dependency between the HS and VS so feel free to skip around. On the HS you have to start out with the nose rivets, which are hard even once you're fairly skilled. Van's is pretty cruel to have you start with those.
A few other tips...
- Practice first, with similar layers to get the pressure and feel calibrated right
- Generally speaking, you don't want to press down with all your might on either side. Even pressure, square to the rivet, is the key on both sides.
- Whenever starting in a new area, start with short bursts of the gun until you get a feel for how things are going to bounce. You don't need to do it all in one shot.
Not so far away (one month or so) I was about to start riveting HS too. I decided to get a friend to help me so I wouldn't have to worry about the gun and the bucking bar. He was shooting (which is easier IMHO) and I was holding the bar. While I had practiced some (left side of HS), I tried it by myself (holding both) and it wasn't hard either. However I think you get pretty much confidence if you start with some help and learn them step by step instead of training with both at the same time. Also training "sheets" and such are small compared to the HS so I didn't see any reason to practice with them -- of course the gun pressure was set according to the experiments but fine tuning comes when you really do the job.
I can certainly appreciate the enthusiasm! I felt the same way until I knocked the snot out of the HS inboard front spar/doubler/ribs/etc, and HS nose rib/skin. Then I knocked the snot out of myself for trying to bull forward when I knew the results were not acceptable (although I did gain experience by undoing everything and doing it over).D&M Dan said:
Do as Paul suggests, and start with the VS -it's much easier to get good results and build some experience and confidence.
A few suggestions: When riveting with a mushroom (flush) set, make sure it stays square to the surface (automatic with a swivel set), and don't wander off the rib, or you'll get a dent in your skin.
When riveting that big knot where the HS inboard front spar/doubler/ribs/spacer all come together, get help. You need to hold the offset rivet set in place on the rivet head while the other person bucks, or you end up with a big mess and a sick feeling.
Also on the HS nose ribs: you might have a gap between the rib flange and skin before you rivet. If so, you can push the flange against the skin by putting a piece of tubing (like fish tank air hose) over the rivet shank before bucking. The tubing, slightly longer than the exposed rivet shank, will not interfere with riveting and falls off or is easily pulled off when you're done bucking.
Tips:
The HS nose ribs are best riveted by two people. Insure the nose rib flanges are square to their webs, except for the two inboard ribs. Make sure the nose ribs are not a force fit into the skin. Use your belt sander to remove any "points" where the flange fingers are bent square from the web else those **** will be visible on the HS skin.
Steve
The HS nose ribs are best riveted by two people. Insure the nose rib flanges are square to their webs, except for the two inboard ribs. Make sure the nose ribs are not a force fit into the skin. Use your belt sander to remove any "points" where the flange fingers are bent square from the web else those **** will be visible on the HS skin.
Steve
FredMagare
Well Known Member
When you get there...
Pay attention when working on your elevators! Where the CS4-4 blind rivets attach the bottom skin to the spar they must be dimpled! The instructions are not clear on this. (Apparently the "CS" in CS4-4 stands for counter-sunk. Well...LEARNING has occured! I'm calling Van's in a little bit to see if the elevator is usable.)
Good luck, and bear in mind - when you make two mistakes in short order - take at least a TWO HOUR break. Rushing through the assembly will end in frustration.
Fred
magaref "at" hayscisd.net
Pay attention when working on your elevators! Where the CS4-4 blind rivets attach the bottom skin to the spar they must be dimpled! The instructions are not clear on this. (Apparently the "CS" in CS4-4 stands for counter-sunk. Well...LEARNING has occured! I'm calling Van's in a little bit to see if the elevator is usable.)
Good luck, and bear in mind - when you make two mistakes in short order - take at least a TWO HOUR break. Rushing through the assembly will end in frustration.
Fred
magaref "at" hayscisd.net
fstringham7a
Well Known Member
Dan
Been there ..done that......Do not I say do not pull the gun away from the metal surface until you have taken your finger off of the trigger and counted to at least one.
Be patient, get help from a pro if available, set the pressure correctly, take your time, use the correct bucking bar, hold gun square and tight to the surface / bucking bar square to the rivet. As has been mentioned practice so you know how long of a burst at the correct pressure is necessary to shoot a good rivet. My HS turned out great with no problems.
Frank @ sgu and slc
Been there ..done that......Do not I say do not pull the gun away from the metal surface until you have taken your finger off of the trigger and counted to at least one.
Be patient, get help from a pro if available, set the pressure correctly, take your time, use the correct bucking bar, hold gun square and tight to the surface / bucking bar square to the rivet. As has been mentioned practice so you know how long of a burst at the correct pressure is necessary to shoot a good rivet. My HS turned out great with no problems.
Frank @ sgu and slc
az_gila
Well Known Member
EAA TC
Do you have an EAA Technical Councelor nearby? I'm sure they would be willing to come and get you started with a practical riveting demonstration.
I've done this at least 3 times recently for new builders who never riveted before... A demonstration is the best way to "catch on" to riveting...
Also, remember "If it doesn't look right, it probably isn't" ... like a previous posting said, don't charge ahead unless you are sure you are sure you are going in the right direction...
Stop and think is always good....
gil in Tucson
Do you have an EAA Technical Councelor nearby? I'm sure they would be willing to come and get you started with a practical riveting demonstration.
I've done this at least 3 times recently for new builders who never riveted before... A demonstration is the best way to "catch on" to riveting...
Also, remember "If it doesn't look right, it probably isn't" ... like a previous posting said, don't charge ahead unless you are sure you are sure you are going in the right direction...
Stop and think is always good.... gil in Tucson
Mike Miller
Active Member
Nose rivet options
Guys,
If you do get worried about being able to drive the nose rib to skin rivets on the HS, either get help from someone with small hands or use different rivets. It is perfectly acceptable to substitute MK-319-BS blind rivets in place of the -3 flush rivets. The MK-319-BS rivets are much easier to "set" and are plenty strong. They have a flush monel head and steel shank. Once the plane is painted it would be extremely hard to notice any difference.
Mike
Guys,
If you do get worried about being able to drive the nose rib to skin rivets on the HS, either get help from someone with small hands or use different rivets. It is perfectly acceptable to substitute MK-319-BS blind rivets in place of the -3 flush rivets. The MK-319-BS rivets are much easier to "set" and are plenty strong. They have a flush monel head and steel shank. Once the plane is painted it would be extremely hard to notice any difference.
Mike
HS nose ribs
I agree that the HS nose ribs are probably the hardest ones in the whole emp. I did mine a couple of months ago, and if you search the forum you'll find my pleas for help about this. For one of those rivets, I ended up having to use a blind rivet. one of the problems I found was that the skin wanted to spring away from the nose rib around teh rivet hole as soon as i took the clecoe out. I found it very hard to hold them together so that the rib and skin would bind together properly. It's also just a tricky spot and tricky angle for bucking.
Don't get discouraged if you find this hard... most of the riveting is MUCH easier than this!
Also, I learned this the hard way... when you have to drill out rivets use a drill that can go at a very slow speed (either good air drill with a teasing trigger, or I use a cordless electric drill).
I agree that the HS nose ribs are probably the hardest ones in the whole emp. I did mine a couple of months ago, and if you search the forum you'll find my pleas for help about this. For one of those rivets, I ended up having to use a blind rivet. one of the problems I found was that the skin wanted to spring away from the nose rib around teh rivet hole as soon as i took the clecoe out. I found it very hard to hold them together so that the rib and skin would bind together properly. It's also just a tricky spot and tricky angle for bucking.
Don't get discouraged if you find this hard... most of the riveting is MUCH easier than this!
Also, I learned this the hard way... when you have to drill out rivets use a drill that can go at a very slow speed (either good air drill with a teasing trigger, or I use a cordless electric drill).
Thanks to all for the advise and ideas. I can't believe I got this many responses in 24 hours. I definitly will move on to the VS as suggested and leave those pesky HS nose ribs for a little further down the road, when the confidence level is higher.
Thanks Again,
Dan
Thanks Again,
Dan
Dan,
My suggestions for riveting:
Air pressure about 40 psi for 3/32" rivets, maybe 45-50 for 1/8" (3X gun). If you have a cheapie regulator (mine's from Harbor Freight), watch the gauge--mine drifts sometimes.
Bucker & riveter agree on a system. We fire the gun in 3 short bursts. That's usually enough to set a 3/32 rivet, and the bucker never removes the bucking bar until the third burst ends. 3 short bursts seem to give us more consistent results than one longer burst, but your results may vary. Also, with short bursts, the bucking bar and the gun are less likely to drift off the rivet. Hold the gun in one hand and hold the rivet set in place with the other.
Experienced help helps a lot. A couple days ago, working with an inexperienced kid (our chapter sent him to the EAA Air Academy), we did about 75 rivets in 2 hours and I had to drill out 3 or 4 rivets. Working alone, I had about the same results on a portion of the skin that I could reach by myself. Today, with an experienced helper, we riveted the rest of a top skin on a wing: Over 400 rivets in 2 hours and didn't have to drill out a single rivet and put no dents in the skin. FWIW, the work went like this: Riveter inserts rivet, puts gun on it, says "On it." Bucker sets bucking bar in place and says "Go." 3 quick bursts follow, bucker checks rivet and says, "Good." In just a couple seconds, the next rivet is in place & the gunner is saying "On it."
Sometimes a rivet won't go into a hole & you know you have match drilled it. You can drill it again, stick an ice pick in & work it around to line up the holes or set the bucking bar beside the hole and with light hits, drive it in with the rivet gun. Should probably try the ice pick first, but round off the end to minimize scratches and reduce the chance of sticking your helper, which makes good help hard to find. I read somewhere that the last method is a no-no, but I don't remember why & I suspect almost everyone does it anyway. Just be sure the bucking bar is flat against the surface or you can dent the skin.
R. Scott
RV-9A Wings
570 hrs. total time so far.
My suggestions for riveting:
Air pressure about 40 psi for 3/32" rivets, maybe 45-50 for 1/8" (3X gun). If you have a cheapie regulator (mine's from Harbor Freight), watch the gauge--mine drifts sometimes.
Bucker & riveter agree on a system. We fire the gun in 3 short bursts. That's usually enough to set a 3/32 rivet, and the bucker never removes the bucking bar until the third burst ends. 3 short bursts seem to give us more consistent results than one longer burst, but your results may vary. Also, with short bursts, the bucking bar and the gun are less likely to drift off the rivet. Hold the gun in one hand and hold the rivet set in place with the other.
Experienced help helps a lot. A couple days ago, working with an inexperienced kid (our chapter sent him to the EAA Air Academy), we did about 75 rivets in 2 hours and I had to drill out 3 or 4 rivets. Working alone, I had about the same results on a portion of the skin that I could reach by myself. Today, with an experienced helper, we riveted the rest of a top skin on a wing: Over 400 rivets in 2 hours and didn't have to drill out a single rivet and put no dents in the skin. FWIW, the work went like this: Riveter inserts rivet, puts gun on it, says "On it." Bucker sets bucking bar in place and says "Go." 3 quick bursts follow, bucker checks rivet and says, "Good." In just a couple seconds, the next rivet is in place & the gunner is saying "On it."
Sometimes a rivet won't go into a hole & you know you have match drilled it. You can drill it again, stick an ice pick in & work it around to line up the holes or set the bucking bar beside the hole and with light hits, drive it in with the rivet gun. Should probably try the ice pick first, but round off the end to minimize scratches and reduce the chance of sticking your helper, which makes good help hard to find. I read somewhere that the last method is a no-no, but I don't remember why & I suspect almost everyone does it anyway. Just be sure the bucking bar is flat against the surface or you can dent the skin.
R. Scott
RV-9A Wings
570 hrs. total time so far.
Last edited:
TIP
If you have trouble getting a rivet to go into a hole that you know is lined up, first try wriggling the clecoes in the ajoining holes. If that doesn't work, try pressing the rivet in with an automatic center punch. I DON"T recommend trying to do it with the rivet gun. With this method, ocassionally the rivet will start to swell half way in the hole. At this point you can't get it in or out.
If you have trouble getting a rivet to go into a hole that you know is lined up, first try wriggling the clecoes in the ajoining holes. If that doesn't work, try pressing the rivet in with an automatic center punch. I DON"T recommend trying to do it with the rivet gun. With this method, ocassionally the rivet will start to swell half way in the hole. At this point you can't get it in or out.
Cheap rivet tape (free)
Didn't have any rivet tape for holding the rivets while installing the rudder doublers, and masking tape made a mess. Then we just cut strips of the blue plastic that's on the aluminum, laid it over the rivets, used a 1/8"x3" x30" steel plate as a buck, and used the back rivet attachment on our 2X gun. You couldn't ask for a better job!!
Jack
Didn't have any rivet tape for holding the rivets while installing the rudder doublers, and masking tape made a mess. Then we just cut strips of the blue plastic that's on the aluminum, laid it over the rivets, used a 1/8"x3" x30" steel plate as a buck, and used the back rivet attachment on our 2X gun. You couldn't ask for a better job!!
Jack
