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Quality Control: Good Enough, or Good Enough for Me

A

Alex

Well Known Member
I recently had an issue with match drilling the #12 holes in the VS-1212A-L and VS-1212A-R for the attachment bolts. I'll cut to the end of the story and say that I ordered new parts because I personally did not want to put the parts on my plane as is, regardless of whether they are acceptable.

Here are the holes in question, with a close up:

IMG_2622_small.jpg


IMG_2622_hole_only.jpg


I couldn't find any information regarding what is and is not an acceptable hole. Do holes need to be absolutely matched, or is some level of mismatch acceptable?

BTW, I asked Van's this question via email. They didn't respond. After a week of waiting for a response I decided to just order new parts.

More on my Build Log
 
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You did the right thing, mismatched holes like this are unacceptable when it comes to primary structure.
 
Walt said:
You did the right thing, mismatched holes like this are unacceptable when it comes to primary structure.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the confirmation, Walt. Given your response I'm even more mystified why Van's didn't respond to my questions on this.
 
Emails sometimes get trapped in spam filters and Van's may have never got it....

Best to call em if you want a quick answer or if you think your email was lost or is being ignored.
 
Please Ring if Answer is Required

Brantel said:
Emails sometimes get trapped in spam filters and Van's may have never got it....

Best to call em if you want a quick answer or if you think your email was lost or is being ignored.
Click to expand...

I know they got my original email because this issue was the second of two questions. I got an answer to the first question, but nothing about this issue. I emailed back to ask again in case they missed the 2nd question in the first email, and got no response. So I suppose it's plausible that they missed the question in the original email and then the 2nd email was filtered. But it seems unlikely to me.

This reminds me of the sign on Owl's house in Winnie the Pooh (for those of you with young kids, or young enough to remember) that reads:

PLES RING IF AN RNSER IS REQIRD
PLEZ CNOKE IF AN RNSR IS NOT REQID.
 
Call em...Van's is not a touchy feely company. Sometimes they are quite rude but they are the best at what they do so we all put up with it....

Alex said:
I know they got my original email because this issue was the second of two questions. I got an answer to the first question, but nothing about this issue. I emailed back to ask again in case they missed the 2nd question in the first email, and got no response. So I suppose it's plausible that they missed the question in the original email and then the 2nd email was filtered. But it seems unlikely to me.

This reminds me of the sign on Owl's house in Winnie the Pooh (for those of you with young kids, or young enough to remember) that reads:

PLES RING IF AN RNSER IS REQIRD
PLEZ CNOKE IF AN RNSR IS NOT REQID.
Click to expand...
 
Brantel said:
Call em...Van's is not a touchy feely company. Sometimes they are quite rude but they are the best at what they do so we all put up with it....
Click to expand...

I'm a bit surprised at this comment. In my two years of association with the Van's folks I have always been treated with the utmost courtesy, whether it has been in person at the factory or Oshkosh, on the phone, or in email communications.
 
Over ten years dealing with em... Notice I said sometimes. It definitely depends on who you talk to, if their having a bad day etc.

95% of the time they are ok but just don't expect em to kiss your feet or anything.
 
Brantel said:
Call em...Van's is not a touchy feely company. Sometimes they are quite rude but they are the best at what they do so we all put up with it....
Click to expand...

I wouldn't classify any of the interactions I've had with Van's as "rude" -- I've had good experiences with them at Oshkosh and on the phone. And I don't want to start speculating about what motivated any presumed decision not to respond to my email. I'm not taking it personally.

By "why didn't I get an email back?" I'm asking whether Van's is perhaps overwhelmed with support requests, or perhaps has a support tracking system where support requests can get lost or overlooked. I'm trying to determine whether this is a common occurrence or an anomaly. My concern is about whether this episode implies that I'll have difficulty getting the information I need to build my airplane to the best standards.
 
I have no complaints with Van's builder's assistance. They've been very responsive on the phone, less so by e-mail, but I don't hold that against them, that's what I use this forum is for. They've never been rude, although they're usually short on chit chat. It's like talking to ATC without scripted phraseology. They are also available all day, even though they only commit to "builders assistance is available from 0700 to 0930, etc., etc."
On a side note, I think Starbucks has caused us to have unrealistic expectations of all businesses. "I want a 1 shot mocha, tall, in a vente cup. I want it to be lava-hot and have ice cubes in it, but I don't want them to melt." That's what you have to do to differentiate yourself in the $3 cup of coffee market, but this is the customer-built flying machine market. The customer has to accept a large part of the responsibility for their own satisfaction with the product.
 
no email answer from VAN's?

I thought they had ignored my email... until I found their answer in my junk mail box.:eek:
 
Next Size

I don't know the particulars of the application, but I've been an engineer for 35 years, and it was always standard practice in the field to drill out bad holes and go to the next larger fastener. That may not have been practical here, but keep it in mind.
 
RFSchaller said:
I don't know the particulars of the application, but I've been an engineer for 35 years, and it was always standard practice in the field to drill out bad holes and go to the next larger fastener. That may not have been practical here, but keep it in mind.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion. I actually had considered that, but didn't want to have to change the bolts and nutplates involved. I'd still have an alignment issue with the fuselage bulkhead when it came time to mount the VS because the holes wouldn't be centered anymore. I'd have to drill out the matching fuselage bulkhead holes to the larger size. If I had a problem at that stage, the VS would already be finished so I'd have less options for correcting the mistake. It seemed less risky to just do the VS spar over.
 
oversize holes

Alex;
As a liaison engineer at Boeing I worked fixes for this type of error a lot.
The engineer at Vans with responsibility for that section of the airframe has all the load data to recommend you ream the hole and install oversize hardware or scrap the part.
You are the final QA on your plane and in my opinion you did the right thing by replacing the parts when you did not get a satisfactory answer.
I recommend you get a copy of FAA Advisory Circular AC 43013-1b /2A
Great reading and it covers your little problem plus lots more.
I have not ordered my kit so I have no idea what Vans tells builders about working around errors.
Regards,
Jerome
 
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