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Prop governor question, front drive difference

climberrn

Well Known Member
I am going from a -360 with a rear governor drive to a -390 with a front governor drive. Currently have a Jihostroj P920-028A. Engine shop is telling me the drive ratio of of the forward drive pad is different, and will need a different governor. No reason to doubt that, but checked with Whirlwind to verify and they said the same prop governor will work.

It is a high pressure model purchased from WW to run a 74RV prop. Very happy with the performance of that governor, and not looking to change unless it is warranted. Had an old rebuilt Woodward one previously and it would hunt RPM. This one keeps a tight RPM.
 
From Mahlon:

https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=18006

"The internal drive ratio of the governor drive, on the engine, are different front mount drive (.947:1 on wide deck engines and .895:1 on narrow deck engines) vs. rear mount drive(.866:1 two mags accessory type housings and 1.30:1 dual mag single mag drive accessory housings). Thus, the governors need to be set up for the correct drive ratio to match the drive they are mounted to. They are not interchangeable.

Good Luck,

Mahlon

"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk.""


This is older info, so should verify for the IO-390.
 
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I’m a little surprised by this but obviously don’t know the details. This type of pump speed affects flow, not pressure directly. The ratios mentioned are so close and consolidate have a linear relationship with the flow. Assuming no gross leakage, the rate of pitch change shouldn’t be noticeable. My thinking is the gov OEM is correct. Wouldn’t their recommendation override that of the engine OEM.

Get me smarter. Willing to learn here.
 
I’m a little surprised by this but obviously don’t know the details. This type of pump speed affects flow, not pressure directly. The ratios mentioned are so close and consolidate have a linear relationship with the flow. Assuming no gross leakage, the rate of pitch change shouldn’t be noticeable. My thinking is the gov OEM is correct. Wouldn’t their recommendation override that of the engine OEM.

Get me smarter. Willing to learn here.

Well, the actual gear drive RPM is what will govern when the governor passes oil or blocks oil. So that will change. The question then is, "Is there sufficient adjustment range on the governor that it can be adjusted to hold red line RPM and/or still govern (for runup check) at runup RPM?" I don't know.
 
Yes Sir. Aware of the dance between balance piston, spring(s), centrifugal forces, etc. The gov would be designed for a range of props(not specifically WW’s) and related operation. If the governor’s design margin is used up, I’m trusting the gov OEMs recommendation versus the power plant’s. Guess I should be clear in wondering why Lyc took the position they did. Can fathom a reason outside of mechanical interface. Would like to learn more.
 
Going to talk to one of the technicians at WW directly tomorrow. Was relayed a message from him, that was it’ll be fine. After talking to the tech directly, will post the response. The final drive ratio on the rear drives on the 360’s are 0.866:1. The front drives on the -390’s are 0.947:1 per the lycoming overhaul manual. Same as the -540’s.
 
.......The final drive ratio on the rear drives on the 360’s are 0.866:1. The front drives on the -390’s are 0.947:1 per the lycoming overhaul manual. Same as the -540’s.

Not according to the Type Certificate Data Sheets (TCDS) of our engines.

IO-360-A1B6 (rear) 0.866:1
IO-360-A3B6D (rear, Dual-Mag) 0.850:1
IO-360-C1B6 (front) 0.895:1
IO-390-A3B6 (front) 0.895:1
IO-540-D4A5 (front) 0.947:1 (0.895 for narrow deck)

TCDS screenshots below.

IO-360.jpg

IO-390.jpg

IO-540.jpg
 
can't speak to what the actual ratio is for your engine. However, I do have experience with the two different ratios for the 540. A gov NEEDS to be internally setup for the engine's ratio in order to meet it's design goals (adjustments usually related to speeder spring tension); This comes straight from hartzell. While the ext speed adj screw can get these units to govern at 2700 in many / most cases, a ratio mismatch WILL mess with the low RPM point at which the governor can still control the prop. You will also be at the end of the adjust ability range of the speed adj screw. Some govs are fixed at a ratio and others, like the hartzel S series, have internal adjustments that can be made to accommodate different ratios. I did that on my gov, but need the manuals, as you are disassembling spring and moving staked pins. My guess is that the whirlwind is also adjustable, but needs to go back to a prop shop to be adjusted IF it was originally set up for a different gear ratio.

Freemasm / Bob, there are a set of flyweithts and these exert a lnear (with gear RPM) pressure against a speeder spring. The spring ultimately apples a semi- linear action to the portion of the gov driving oil pressure on the output. Therefore the spring properties greatly affect the linear relationship between input gear speed and output oil pressure. In the hartzell, you can clock a cam that increases spring pressure pre-load, and this is how the gov is set up for the gear speed it will be seeing from its engine mate. The spring rate will work across different ratios by design, but the minimum governing point is set by the speeder spring pre-load and NOT the springs rate. The speeder spring is internal, sitting right over the flyweights. I am NOT referring to the tensioning spring on the outside of the gov, which by the way, is also part of the tension arrangement and why they have a special procedure for setting it's preload.

While not wanting to start a debate, I am pretty confident that the gov moves the blades with pressure, not flow. Yes, you have to have enough flow to maintain that pressure with all of the bleed off, but ultimately it is pressure that moves the piston in the prop. I believe this is basic hydraulics. You could have 1000 GPH at 1 PSI and those blades WILL NOT move. My garden hose flows a LOT of water but can't do any work. I put a restrictor on it to realize the 50 PSI head pressure and now I can start scraping debris off the pavement. Really not any different than the oil pressure regulator in our lyc's. It controls pressure, NOT flow. Yes flow does impact the precision of it's regulation, but across a pretty wide range of flow it holds a relatively constant pressure. But to your point, once the pump volume falls too low at idle, the pressure drops as it has fallend under the regulators control window.

Larry
 
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Hey Larry

Positive displacement pump, so:

- (Back) pressure is a function of the system: in this case, the same propeller.
- Flow is a function of the rpm (same leakage rate as before since same prop).
- The gear ratios are ~3% different so flow would be the same delta for a given RPM.

That delta # would be in the mud. I can't imagine a gov designer having margins that close or component quality consistency that tight that it would matter. If the Lycoming system losses or internal leakages were for some reason greatly different between the two ports, then their opinion may matter.

The gov is the same. The prop is the same. The gov RPM (and related gov flow) is ~3% different for a given engine RPM.

I'm still just not seeing it. Not the first time.
 
Not able to get ahold of Whirlwind today. Will try again tomorrow. I was leaning toward what Scott said in the previous post. Well explained.
 
The difference has nothing to do with oil pressure or volume. The difference is the actual rpm the governor is turning due to the difference in drive ratio. If you want the engine to be governed at a specific take off rpm but have different governor rpms to do that, they will have to be set up differently and thus they are different governors. One yielding a prop rpm of lets say2700 with a drive ratio of x and the other with a drive ratio of y. The amount of adjustment on the takeoff rpm screw on either governor would need to be sufficient to make up the difference in drive ratios to use the same governor and get the same resultant take off rpm on the engine and prop. Any governor that I have used would not have the adjustment range to accomplish that without major adjustment of the governor actuating arm on its flyweight shaft which is normally a test bench adjustment.
Hope this helps.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
 
Aircraft Propeller Service LLC

I sent my rear mounted PCU to them for modification for front mount. They changed the ratio and resealed for what I thought was a very reasonable rate.
 
<SNIP> Anyone have a definitive answer for the drive ratio on front mounted governor on a IO-390?
 
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Was told the ratio for the -390 front drive is .947:1. This is from Barrett engines. The parallel value, accessory case mount was .866:1 (from Barrett also)
 
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