What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Preflighting a Rotax engine video

cleve_thompson

Well Known Member
Avweb has posted an interesting video about pre-flighting a Rotax engine. I didn't know it could be so involved! It is really a different animal, so it seems. Take a look. Scroll down near the bottom of the page
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/bizav/1561-full.html#201882

I am getting old enough to consider a light sport license and switching from a RV9A to a RV12, but I don't know if I could adjust after 50 years behind a Lycoming.
 
Last edited:
I am getting old enough to consider a light sport license and switching from a RV9A to a RV12, but I don't know if I could adjust after 50 years behind a Lycoming.

Maintaining a 912 is not that hard. What you are seeing is things you haven't done before, that all. Once you do them it's like anything else and becomes routine. The Rotax 912 is a good engine and require little adjustment.

You can teach an old dog new tricks, just ask me. ;)
 
Last edited:
I am getting old enough to consider a light sport license and switching from a RV9A to a RV12, but I don't know if I could adjust after 50 years behind a Lycoming.

Nah, it's a cinch. The main operating differences to get used to is warming up properly and running it correctly. Most lyc/cont. drivers are used to just taxiing out to the runup area, doing a runup and blasting off, if they even wait till the oil temp is off the needle.... that's a no-no on the Rotax, where you need 120F minimun on the oil temp before you put the coals to it (I usually go to 130F especially in cold weather).

The other big difference is the high rpm operation. Lugging or babying the engine will cause problems. You want about 5000 to 5100 rpm minimum for continuous operation (otherwise piston speeds are too slow at higher power operation which increases wear) and 5200 rpm bare minimum at full power climbout (5400 is a sweet spot on mine and of course Rotax says 5500 to 5800).

The original Diamonds that used the 912S came down with lots of problems because of this type of operator error (i.e. needing tops at 800 hours and so on) where they were trying to lug the motor. Once folks started letting them spin up all those problems went away.

I personally would also avoid running 100LL _all_ the time. Run autogas whenever possible (E10 92 octane is ok for the engine, don't know about the RV12 fuel system) and 100LL only when necessary such as on cross-countries. Rotax ultimately really wants only unleaded in these things, tho they also know the reality of autogas availability too, so..

Finally, be very attentive to leaks of any kind on the engine during preflight. The 912 series is designed to not leak any fluids _at all_. There should be no coolant/oil/goo spots anywhere on the engine. You're used to oil all over the place on the lyc./connies so you quit paying attention to leaks and even oil on the plane on preflight there. But with the Rotax, if you find any wetness of oil or coolant anywhere, you've got a problem that shouldn't be ignored. One trouble spot a couple of folks have identified is occasional leaks at the valve covers - one of the dealers is collecting info on this and is working on a field fix for it. The other place to look is right under the water pump - there's a hole there designed to drain any fluid that may be leaking out of the pump and its seals. So remember to get under there on preflight (mine's hard to spot and sometimes I use an inspection mirror to get at it).

Anyway, just a couple items I've discovered operating my 912....

PS: the comment in the video about shock-cooling is a little misleading. A real hazard on any engine, but especially on the Rotax is shock _heating_ (i've never observed shock cooling to be a problem on any Rotax, 2 or 4 stroke). Now, the 912 is a really good design where the cylinders are air-cooled and only the heads are water cooled, so it's not nearly as susceptible to "cold siezures" as water-cooled engines with a full cooling jacket around them (i.e. some of the 2-strokes).
But cold siezures are a possible hazard with the 912 with some typical big-iron operating practices. I.e. the lyc/cont's being air-cooled are generally pretty durable as far as shock-heating, i.e. in the pattern you may idle all the way down to the runway and then push the throttle all the way in immediately when you go again. This normally doesn't hurt these motors since they don't heat up all that fast when you do this and they usually go out to TBO no problem.
Avoid this type of operation in the Rotax. Long periods of idling should be followed by smooth/slow applications of power, don't ram the throttle open immediately unless you really need to. The piston/cyl. clearances in the Rotax are _extremely_ tight especially when hot. In more extreme shock-heating situations, you can get pretty close to the edge.

Just another thing to pay attention to operation-wise.

LS
 
Last edited:
Thx

Some nice info that I haven't seen elsewhere...thank you for taking the time to share it.
 
Finally, be very attentive to leaks of any kind on the engine during preflight. The 912 series is designed to not leak any fluids _at all_. There should be no coolant/oil/goo spots anywhere on the engine.
All good points. However, there are some Rotax installs where the coolant system tends to "burp" a few drops of coolant from around the hose-to-pipe transitions after big ambient temperature swings. This seems to happen with most CTs, something about the type of hose clamps they use or the tolerances between the hose and pipe? Anyway, I'd say that any oil leak is a problem, and coolant can be unless you have the occasional "burp" from the hoses.

A place to watch out for oil is the around the bottom of the gearbox to engine seal. It's a metal to metal seal with a permatex-type sealant used to make it oil tight. I'm not sure about what is coming out of the factory now, but some of the factory installs and many of the field re-seal jobs leak. It's maddening to have a leak on the front of the engine, could be so many different things. How do I know? :rolleyes:

TODR
 
All good points. However, there are some Rotax installs where the coolant system tends to "burp" a few drops of coolant from around the hose-to-pipe transitions after big ambient temperature swings. This seems to happen with most CTs, something about the type of hose clamps they use or the tolerances between the hose and pipe? Anyway, I'd say that any oil leak is a problem, and coolant can be unless you have the occasional "burp" from the hoses.

A place to watch out for oil is the around the bottom of the gearbox to engine seal. It's a metal to metal seal with a permatex-type sealant used to make it oil tight. I'm not sure about what is coming out of the factory now, but some of the factory installs and many of the field re-seal jobs leak. It's maddening to have a leak on the front of the engine, could be so many different things. How do I know? :rolleyes:

TODR

Interesting, but I'd be very reticent to fly a 912 that leaked coolant in any amount (especially at the hoses), that can cost 20 large on up on a bad day if everything goes just exactly right..... These connections should be completely bone dry everywhere as well.

One nasty thing is the water tubes that run from the spyder to the heads to the water pump are 17mm inside diameter. I've looked for a source for heater hose of this size in North America other than Rotax dealers in vain. To my knowledge it's only available in the US from Rotax dealers at $60/meter. What you get is just Gates heater hose in 17mm ID... but that's the only place you seem to be able to get it......
Also the clamps have to be the spring style clamps, tho I think you can source these from other places for 1/10th the cost of the same clamps from Rotax dealers. Worm gear clamps are a no-no on the water tubes.

So I'd suspect either the wrong size hose or something like that is being substituted? or an incorrect clamp is being used?......

On the gearbox leaks, I know of one fellow who had a similar leak on his brand new 912ULS. It was still in warranty and he had the box resealed which seemed to have fixed it. But I've heard of this as a trouble spot and it definitely needs to be fixed if it appears.... Don't know what's going on there....

LS
 
Interesting, but I'd be very reticent to fly a 912 that leaked coolant in any amount (especially at the hoses), that can cost 20 large on up on a bad day if everything goes just exactly right..... These connections should be completely bone dry everywhere as well.

One nasty thing is the water tubes that run from the spyder to the heads to the water pump are 17mm inside diameter. I've looked for a source for heater hose of this size in North America other than Rotax dealers in vain. To my knowledge it's only available in the US from Rotax dealers at $60/meter. What you get is just Gates heater hose in 17mm ID... but that's the only place you seem to be able to get it......
Also the clamps have to be the spring style clamps, tho I think you can source these from other places for 1/10th the cost of the same clamps from Rotax dealers. Worm gear clamps are a no-no on the water tubes.

So I'd suspect either the wrong size hose or something like that is being substituted? or an incorrect clamp is being used?......

On the gearbox leaks, I know of one fellow who had a similar leak on his brand new 912ULS. It was still in warranty and he had the box resealed which seemed to have fixed it. But I've heard of this as a trouble spot and it definitely needs to be fixed if it appears.... Don't know what's going on there....

LS

Can you site the reference material that states a standard hose clamp cannot be used on a Rotax? I have not heard that one before.

As far as the hoses, the metric diameter hoses have been a non-issue for years. IMHO, use of a quality standard automotive heater hose is perfectly acceptable. We used to replace these water cooling hoses every so many years with standard hose and used regular hose clamps. Never had a drop of coolant lost, or any hose failures, or tube failures dues to hose clamps in thousands of hours of operation that I personally know of. The spring clamps are pre-tensioned of course and over tightening of the standard clamps could be an issue, but with reasonable force when tighten them there won't be problems.

Of course Rotax is going to say use their hoses and clamps, it's called CYA.


JMHO
 
Last edited:
Can you site the reference material that states a standard hose clamp cannot be used on a Rotax? I have not heard that one before.

Have you read the installation manual like I suggested last time? It's all in there. www.rotax-owner.com.

As far as the hoses, the metric diameter hoses have been a non-issue for years. IMHO, use of a quality standard automotive heater hose is perfectly acceptable. We used to replace these water cooling hoses every so many years with standard hose and used regular hose clamps. Never had a drop of coolant lost, or any hose failures, or tube failures dues to hose clamps in thousands of hours of operation that I personally know of. The spring clamps are pre-tensioned of course and over tightening of the standard clamps could be an issue, but with reasonable force when tighten them there won't be problems.

Of course Rotax is going to say use their hoses and clamps, it's called CYA.


JMHO

It's not the grade of hose, it's the size. Look it up, this is in the parts manual or the catalogue of any of the Rotax dealers.

But I guess it all just depends on what you're comfortable with. Knowingly using the wrong size hose on the water tubes of a $20,000 engine that could become a melted piece of scrap worth $0.00 if they fail is a little over the line for me, but that's just me.

I'm told that 5/8" heater hose can be pushed over the fittings in a pinch, but that's not really a corner I'm comfortable with cutting. I'm just not a spit-and-bailing-wire type of pilot I guess.

But like I said, YMMV and that's just me...

LS
 
Have you read the installation manual like I suggested last time? It's all in there. www.rotax-owner.com.

Of course Rotax is going to say use their parts, just like Lycoming says use geniuine Lycoming parts, and Ford says use genuine Ford parts. I would suggest not listening to anything Toyota says at the moment, but I digress. ;)

It's not the grade of hose, it's the size. Look it up, this is in the parts manual or the catalogue of any of the Rotax dealers.

But I guess it all just depends on what you're comfortable with. Knowingly using the wrong size hose on the water tubes of a $20,000 engine that could become a melted piece of scrap worth $0.00 if they fail is a little over the line for me, but that's just me.

It is my understanding (I have never had an issue with loosing coolant in a 912 in over 500 flight hours) that incase of a major inflight coolant loss the Rotax instructions are to throttle back to minimums to keep the plane flying safely, and proceed to the nearest airport or safe landing area. The engine will run without coolant.

I'm told that 5/8" heater hose can be pushed over the fittings in a pinch, but that's not really a corner I'm comfortable with cutting. I'm just not a spit-and-bailing-wire type of pilot I guess.

Then you are certainly free to buy the Rotax 17mm hoses. I certainly hope I do not come across as a "spit & bailing wire" type of builder and pilot. I take flying and the maintenance of aircraft very seriously. Your post intimates there are problems with the clamps and hoses when in actual practice of maintaining the Rotax 912 there are none.

I strongly recommend anyone operating a Rotax engine to attend Rotax sponsored repair classes, maintenance seminars, and refresher courses.
 
Last edited:
912

One other thing not mentioned yet keep an eye on any oil around the crankshaft oil seal. A friend of mine has about 400 hours on his 912 and the seal has started leaking and will require a tear down for replacement. Its not a serious leak but is a problem. Another friend had a serious accident because of a sticking throttle. Make sure your throttle operation is smooth and easy if you are using a flex cable. Return springs in the carbs pull the throttle closed and if the cable sticks it can leave your engine running at high power with no idle cutoff. These springs are not strong enough to pull a sticking cable. If your set up has a soild steel cable it can push itself to idle, but you cant push on a string.
 
Another friend had a serious accident because of a sticking throttle. Make sure your throttle operation is smooth and easy if you are using a flex cable. Return springs in the carbs pull the throttle closed and if the cable sticks it can leave your engine running at high power with no idle cutoff. These springs are not strong enough to pull a sticking cable. If your set up has a soild steel cable it can push itself to idle, but you cant push on a string.

Interesting. The set up for the -12 has the carb return spring taking the carb to WOT. I believe this is the standard and recommended carb set up for the 912. In the event of a throttle cable failure the carb fails WOT, full power.

Was your buddies plane a home built? Was the carb set up modified from the factory settings? Some builders do this, but it is not recommended. Other -12 builders and I have talked about this because the throttle will creep forward of you don't have the friction setting tight enough. It will get your attention if you forget, and it takes some getting use to and now I don't even think about it.
 
Last edited:
I dont know

Exactly how the springs operate, but this was not a cable faliure, it was a stuck cable. The set up was on a Titan Tornado II which I now own. I dissasembled the cables, and removed the engine, and inspection revealed the cable (a stranded flex cable) was hopelessly frozen solid with rust at full throttle. The accident was during ground operation and resulted in a runaway airplane with a non pilot at the controls ending up smacking into the hanger. In the air this would only have resulted in a full power landing which is managable with magnetos. Ive never had the carbs apart but they appear to return to idle with springs, thus pulling the flex cable. There were no springs on the cable itself and there was no way to return the cable except for the carb return springs.
 
Exactly how the springs operate, but this was not a cable faliure, it was a stuck cable. The set up was on a Titan Tornado II which I now own. I dissasembled the cables, and removed the engine, and inspection revealed the cable (a stranded flex cable) was hopelessly frozen solid with rust at full throttle. The accident was during ground operation and resulted in a runaway airplane with a non pilot at the controls ending up smacking into the hanger. In the air this would only have resulted in a full power landing which is managable with magnetos. Ive never had the carbs apart but they appear to return to idle with springs, thus pulling the flex cable. There were no springs on the cable itself and there was no way to return the cable except for the carb return springs.

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. Part of the maintenance for a Rotax / RV-12 is yearly lubrcation of the throttle cable. I sure hope this keeps mine from sticking. ;)
 
modified mine

I modified my new installation on the Titan I have rebuilt and am using a solid wire cable like in the big planes. Now when I return to idle the cable pushes itself back and helps return the carbs to idle. I just have a short length of flex cable about 36 inchs to transition itself into the carbs. I did not buy the 912 with that was on the plane asking price was to high. I have installed a rotax 582 instead and the carbs are a bit different from the 912.

Yes by all means do what ever it takes to keep a close eye on your throttle set up, and also on your fuel plumbing. There is nothing that will cause more grief than fuel starvation. If your planning to use auto gas, here is a first hand observation. Auto gas with methanol goes sour in about eight weeks. It will putrify in your carbs and cause gummy bears to breed in the float bowls. If your plane will set for longer than this dump the fuel and use fresh, or at least evacuate the fuel from your carbs so they wont breed gummy bears.
 
Of course Rotax is going to say use their parts, just like Lycoming says use geniuine Lycoming parts, and Ford says use genuine Ford parts. I would suggest not listening to anything Toyota says at the moment, but I digress. ;)

Well I'm sure by now my point is made. You disregard your engine manufacturer's recommendations/requirements at your own risk. Good thing about experimental of course is we're free to do that, but just keep in mind that you're on your own in so doing.
It is my understanding (I have never had an issue with loosing coolant in a 912 in over 500 flight hours) that incase of a major inflight coolant loss the Rotax instructions are to throttle back to minimums to keep the plane flying safely, and proceed to the nearest airport or safe landing area. The engine will run without coolant.

Perhaps, but then again that'll have an, er, extremely significant affect on TBO in the negative direction. At $20k a pop new and not much less than that for a complete major, I'd rather takes as many steps as I could to not have to find out if a run without coolant is the last flight for my 912 or not.
Then you are certainly free to buy the Rotax 17mm hoses. I certainly hope I do not come across as a "spit & bailing wire" type of builder and pilot. I take flying and the maintenance of aircraft very seriously. Your post intimates there are problems with the clamps and hoses when in actual practice of maintaining the Rotax 912 there are none.

I strongly recommend anyone operating a Rotax engine to attend Rotax sponsored repair classes, maintenance seminars, and refresher courses.

That's a good idea. I'd ask about the water tubes and clamps while you're there. Hopefully they'll get your nose in those manuals too.....

LS
 
Lucien,

Been enjoying this thread. A lot of information! Could you state your credentials. Are you an A&P? Are you a certified ROTAX mechanic? How many hours have you flown behind and maintained a 912?
 
Lucien,

Been enjoying this thread. A lot of information! Could you state your credentials. Are you an A&P? Are you a certified ROTAX mechanic? How many hours have you flown behind and maintained a 912?

Nope, just a very satisfied long-time Rotax owner/operator. About 10 years operating the 2-strokes (stopped counting at about 500 hours, but estimate about 800hours total at this point), a little under 4 years owner/op of a 912ULS (closing in on 200 very satisfying and enjoyable hours in front of it too).
Been slogging through Rotax documentation for the duration too....

LS
 
Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. Part of the maintenance for a Rotax / RV-12 is yearly lubrcation of the throttle cable. I sure hope this keeps mine from sticking. ;)

One more piece of unsolicited experience for what it's worth....

Most throttle cables normally used on our light a/c are not meant to be lubricated. They use a teflon housing that is supposed to remain dry at all times.

The main hazard of lubricating these are thickening of the lubricant in cold weather which leads to drag. This can be bad news on the 912 carburettors set stock to open via the return springs.

Worse, water can get into the jacket and freeze - locking your throttle in place. You can only imagine what kind of fun that is!

So just something to watch out for, i.e. be sure the cable design you're using is supposed to be lubricated - the typical teflon ones are not and are meant to be replaced when they get draggy....

LS
 
One more piece of unsolicited experience for what it's worth....

Most throttle cables normally used on our light a/c are not meant to be lubricated. They use a teflon housing that is supposed to remain dry at all times.

The main hazard of lubricating these are thickening of the lubricant in cold weather which leads to drag. This can be bad news on the 912 carburettors set stock to open via the return springs.

Worse, water can get into the jacket and freeze - locking your throttle in place. You can only imagine what kind of fun that is!

So just something to watch out for, i.e. be sure the cable design you're using is supposed to be lubricated - the typical teflon ones are not and are meant to be replaced when they get draggy....

LS


So you are recommending that we do not lubricate the throttle cable in the RV-12 even though it called out in the Vans maintenance manual?
 
Last edited:
One more piece of unsolicited experience for what it's worth....

Most throttle cables normally used on our light a/c are not meant to be lubricated. They use a teflon housing that is supposed to remain dry at all times.

LS

Section 11, page 8 of the RV-12 maintenance manual specifically calls for lubrication of the cables during the yearly condition inspection!!!

PLEASE read it!
 
Exactly how the springs operate, but this was not a cable faliure, it was a stuck cable. The set up was on a Titan Tornado II which I now own. I dissasembled the cables, and removed the engine, and inspection revealed the cable (a stranded flex cable) was hopelessly frozen solid with rust at full throttle. The accident was during ground operation and resulted in a runaway airplane with a non pilot at the controls ending up smacking into the hanger. In the air this would only have resulted in a full power landing which is managable with magnetos. Ive never had the carbs apart but they appear to return to idle with springs, thus pulling the flex cable. There were no springs on the cable itself and there was no way to return the cable except for the carb return springs.

This is one of the reasons that, if it weren't major surgery on my plane, I'd switch to normally-closed in a NYC minute ;).

The original builder of my plane had an incident with his previous plane involving this (a Titan Tornado IIS). He'd just finished his engine/prop installation on the fuse and it was time to take it to the airport for its final assembly. He only lived about a mile from the airport and way out in the boonies too, so he decided he'd simply start up and taxi it over rather than do all the rigamarole with a trailer etc.

As he was going down his driveway the connection on one of the carbs came loose and went to wide open. The other carb remained at idle, but the engine was still doing a good 4000 rpm, plenty to push him hard down his driveway and into the road, brakes fully locked up.....

Kind of funny but at the same time scared the bejeepers out of him. Fortunately, he was able to get to the ignition switch before hitting anything or worse.... When he was building my plane he just decided he'd trailer to the airport at that stage instead ;)......

LS
 
So you are recommending that we do not lubricate the throttle cable in the RV-12 even though it called out in the Vans maintenance manual?

I wasn't going to respond to this, because seems like you're looking for a fight here for some reason and I don't fight in online forums anymore. But I'll repeat what I said because it's an important safety issue:

I said, you need to confirm if the throttle cable you're using in your plane actually requires lubrication. If it's one of the common types with a teflon housing (Edit: ...chances are it does NOT require lubrication. If it doesn't....), do NOT lubricate it. It is NOT designed for that and it will cause problems if you do lubricate it. Edit: confirm with the manufacturer/distributor of the cable if this is true or not.

I said nothing about disobeying directives from Vans or anything like that.

The end. I'm making no more posts on this thread.

LS
 
Last edited:
I wasn't going to respond to this, because seems like you're looking for a fight here for some reason and I don't fight in online forums anymore. ......................

LS

If I came across as "looking for a fight" I appoligize, that was not my intent. Sometimes typing something comes across stronger or with a different meaning than what was intended, and that can lead to "misunderstandings".

My experience has been that VAF and specifically the RV-12 forum tends to focus on the RV-12 and it's maintaince issues. Please understand that is the nature of the VAF forums. We tend to lean towards solving issues with RVs.

As you know, maintaining the Rotax 912 is not hard, and that is what I have been trying to get across to potential builders. As Cleve Thompson said in his first post some guys contemplating building a -12 have reservations about the engine as they are used to Lyclones. I am just trying to let those "sitting on the fence" know the Rotax 912 is an exceptional, reliable, and easy to maintain serious aircraft engine.

Your opinions and advice is always welcome as far as I'm concerned, and I trust you'll be open to my opinions, and advice even if it conflicts with yours.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top