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Pre-build question...

D

David-aviator

Well Known Member
I am reading the pre-build manual, word by word, to see if taking on this project makes any sense for me.

As Scott Risen commented at Van's, if you've built one of our later models, the RV-3 will be a challenge. Ken Scott discouraged the whole idea, his conclusion was it is a terrific opportunity to screw up a build.

All that being said, I am open to doing it. It certainly is not rocket science, so to speak. I've built the H frame before when doing the first tail section for the 7, it was actually a 6 build. Later it became the matched drilled item it is today.

On page 6-2, the very first pieces to fabricate are the HS-303 channel and the HS-307 reinforcing strips. The written word seems to indicate the channels are pre-formed, the drawing at DG-14 says to remove certain flange corners "after bending." Are the HS-303's fabricated from flat .32 sheet or from pre-bent channels?

Also, there seems to be no clear drawing of the HS-307's, just a simple short segment of how they look, no dimensions whatever.

I will read on and perhaps see a more detailed illustration of the HS-307's.
 
Hi Dave

The three is a tough build relative to most of the other RV's, but with all of the pictures available online you should have no problem. "Most" of the parts are pre bent, although they will require trimming and adjusting before they can be fit into place. The baggage floor, seat pan and throttle quadrant are a few instances that will require bending. The dimensions can change depending on where you look in the plans, so you will have to "build it in your head" before cutting real metal. There are several really thorough sites and albums out there that explain virtually every roadblock you will run into. I say go for it!
 
David-aviator said:
Ken Scott discouraged the whole idea, his conclusion was it is a terrific opportunity to screw up a build.
Click to expand...

Oh Heck, Ken says that to everyone - just proving him wrong should be enough incentive to build the thing, don't you think?! :p

I have told folks that building a -3 is like building any of the short-winged RV's - the structures are all designed the same, only the dimensions are different. If you know how the airframes work, you'll be able to figure out how to put the -3 together, regardless of the "holes" in the plans. I highly recommend the -3 as a "second" (or third, or fourth...) - it will keep you thinking and your mind very active. Keep the "big Picture" in mind, and the details will become obvious.

I think the RV-3 was Rob's first RV....quite an achievement. A repeat builder shouldn't be afraid of it.

Paul
 
David-aviator said:
...As Scott Risen commented at Van's, if you've built one of our later models, the RV-3 will be a challenge. Ken Scott discouraged the whole idea, his conclusion was it is a terrific opportunity to screw up a build....
Click to expand...

Ironflight said:
Oh Heck, Ken says that to everyone - just proving him wrong should be enough incentive to build the thing, don't you think?! :p...
Paul
Click to expand...

The -3 is getting popular enough (two new ones this week!) that I think the support guys at Vans need to man up and build one, just to be better prepared to offer support.;)

I took on a HRII (basically, differs from RV-4 only in dimension) as a first project and though the going has been slow, there's nothing I haven't been able to figure out through this forum, matronics, and other's build sites (Thanks Sam and Vince!). Persistence (or is that stubborness :confused:) will get you through.

I don't know specifically about the RV-3, but I'd bet a beer that its HS spar channels come bent, as did those for the RV-4. The RV-4 plans are detailed enough that you could probably build one from scratch (including enough info to cut form blocks for ribs and bulkheads), but other than not being pre-punched, most kit parts come fabricated to the level of more recent designs.
 
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Ken Scott is a pessimist!

Don't listen to him.
Build On!
Prior to the early '90s, all RV kits were like that and look how many RV-3s, -4s, and -6s have been built.
 
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Paul and I were just saying this morning (before this post) that the RV-3 seems like the perfect plane for you to fly and it makes great sense for you to be the next forum RV-3 builder! Just bookmark the RV-3 forum stickies and use the sites regularly:

Building sites: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=54500

Plans clarifications: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=56544

Remember, David, even if Ken Scott is intimidated by the -3, it is really so easy, even girls can build them! :p

(Apologies to Katie, the lady in west Texas, and any other women building or have built a -3. I just couldn't resist!:eek:)
 
IT'S SO SIMPLE...........

Even a "Cave-Lady" can do it!

[My apologies to Louise and Geico Ins.]
 
Get building, and don't let anyone discourage you! It might take longer than the pre-punched airplanes, but so what? I bought my RV3 kit in 1982 (completed in 1990) - the plans were sketchy and the materials kit not nearly what they are today. I'd never even worked with metal before - along with the technical stuff, there are just a few rules to keep in mind:

1) make parts to fit other parts, assemblies to fit other assemblies
2) don't build anything until you have to (stay in sequence), and
3) when you're tired, walk away from it for awhile

The RV3 has the best all-around performance for the cost, bar none. Just be sure you don't want that 2nd seat

- Steven
(700 RV3 flight hours, +1.1 today - it never gets old!)
 
YES!

highflight42x said:
1) make parts to fit other parts, assemblies to fit other assemblies
2) don't build anything until you have to (stay in sequence), and
3) when you're tired, walk away from it for awhile
Click to expand...

Excellent advice!
 
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Thank you-all for the encouragement and sources of information on the RV-3.

I've decided to study the matter further and not make an immediate decision as the holidays are upon us and looking down the road, have not quite comprehended how to build the fuselage jig.

But if Cave Lady and Texas Lady can figured out it, so can I. :)
 
David-aviator said:
Thank you-all for the encouragement and sources of information on the RV-3.

I've decided to study the matter further and not make an immediate decision as the holidays are upon us and looking down the road, have not quite comprehended how to build the fuselage jig.

But if Cave Lady and Texas Lady can figured out it, so can I. :)
Click to expand...

Dave,

I've got the RV3B fuse jig in the hangar if you need good solid measurements and/or pics. :)
 
LifeofReiley said:
Dave,

I've got the RV3B fuse jig in the hangar if you need good solid measurements and/or pics. :)
Click to expand...

At your convenience, please send a picture of the jig. I can get the dimensions off the unclear plan. I know I could figure it out eventually but a picture is worth many moments of study and words.

Anything to cut down the time it would take get this thing flying is great.

Thank you!

[email protected]
 
David-aviator said:
At your convenience, please send a picture of the jig. I can get the dimensions off the unclear plan. I know I could figure it out eventually but a picture is worth many moments of study and words.

Anything to cut down the time it would take get this thing flying is great.

Thank you!

[email protected]
Click to expand...

Done Deal... will email you some pics later today.
 
The image and instructions on how to build it should be part of the RV-3 build manual. :)
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Disagree ;) If you cannot "work out" how to build the jig, from a drawing quite good by RV-3 standards, you will have little chance figuring out how to actually build the aircraft :eek:
 
Andy Hill said:
Disagree ;) If you cannot "work out" how to build the jig, from a drawing quite good by RV-3 standards, you will have little chance figuring out how to actually build the aircraft :eek:
Click to expand...

Section 8 - The Fuselage, page 1 reads "An example of the fuselage jig is detailed in fold-out SK-39." This obviously is the basis of the information Paul sent.

My manual which was purchased two weeks ago has no SK-39. I have turned through every page of it. There is an SK-38 (a back bone jig) and SK-40, but there is no SK-39.

You're right in stating that if one has trouble building the jigs, that trouble will follow building the airplane. But that's not my problem, I've built 2 airplanes with many jigs and both flew quite well. The problem is overcoming a set of instructions that could have been better written and without missing pages.

(In going through the manual a second time I found SK-39 in Section 7, fold out page 8-34. Opening 8-34 revealed SK-39. The drawing is quite clear. 8-34 now resides ahead of 8-35 in Section 8)
 
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Some advice from another crazy chick RV3 builder: :p (no offense Louise, you know we are!!) :D

1. The only person I have talked to at Vans who is not a pessimist and knows squat about a 3, is Van himself. He signed my 3-view at OSH a couple years ago and when I told him I was building a 3, he didn't blink. He said, "You got some experienced help around?" I said Yep! He said, "well have fun & take your time, you'll do alright!"

2. Take it one piece at a time. Do not worry about screwing up small parts. You can always order or make new ones. I celebrate screw ups by decorating the garage wall with them. The last one was the VS spar doubler. 'I wrote RTFM is not enough" on it. When building a 3, reading the manual is just the beginning! I was happy to read in Tony Spicer's build log that Tony Boy's original VS spar doubler suffered the same fate!

3. Don't get bent out of shape about figuring out how to do stuff before it comes time to actually do it. (Like jigs & such.) You will gather ideas over the years, see many online albums like Junior's, talk to many builders and see planes in person. This forum is certainly key to my confidence that I will finish building/fixing. You will often have great answers to your questions within minutes of posting them! Solving the problems is a lot of fun.

4. Have a helper around to bounce ideas and give a hand while wrestling skins onto the frame! I am very fortunate there.

5. This post will have more merit when my plane is done. Out to the garage i go!:p
 
Actually most of that stuff applies to most RVs. And I forgot the most important one.

Don't get mad over the fact that you just spent half a day creating a piece that's all done out of the box in a prepunched kit!
 
The -3 is getting popular enough (two new ones this week!) that I think the support guys at Vans need to man up and build one, just to be better prepared to offer support.
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Reckon they'd be better off using their spare time to give us pre-punched skins for the tail and fuselage kits, at the very least.
 
the jig is easy.. forming the bulkheads/ribs is not a problem.. after my T-18 NOTHING is hard about the -3 or -4.. if your interested, I am in process of rebuilding a -4 fuselage, putting it back in a modified jig.. I will post pics starting in jan... it may help a bit when you start loading yours... fyi, the bulkheads will have to be shifted a bit off the waterline to make the skins lay flush, or you can make shims.. I prefer to leave the bulkhead ON the centerline spine and then test fit the skins with clamps before drilling ANY holes... use 40's to start for pilot holes... you can open them up to 30s once you have everything in place, and FIRMLY attached to the jig... its had to explain without seeking if this is your first build.. remember, you ARE going to ruin some parts, it part of the learning experience... the key is to 1) ask a lot of questions. 2) keep the $$ mistakes to a minimum...
Jeff
 
HS 303/302 are bent out of flat stock... the area to be removed is to allow the mating plate HS308 to be attached to the 302 L&R remember, there is left and right for the 303 (forward spar) and the 302 (aft spar). Your elevators are attached to the 303.... preview plan #14 and #15....
 
gearup said:
HS 303/302 are bent out of flat stock... the area to be removed is to allow the mating plate HS308 to be attached to the 302 L&R remember, there is left and right for the 303 (forward spar) and the 302 (aft spar). Your elevators are attached to the 303.... preview plan #14 and #15....
Click to expand...

Thanks, finally got that question answered from the first message. Looks like one will need to buy or build a 48" box brake to do these parts.
 
Or learn how to form parts around wooden shapes. It's an old technique that works well enough.

I prefer using hardwood but haven't tried the tooling Masonite the plans recommend. Don't forget to radius the corner of the form and allow for some springback. See the detail on the far right of drawing 14.

You'll need a second hardwood block clamped on top of the part to hold it secure and prevent the web from bending. Use heavy clamping pressure, you don't want anything to slip.

If you just start pounding on the flanges you'll certainly stretch them. Use a third hardwood block to distribute the bend, and you can pound on that.

I'm sure (in fact I hope) that someone with more current experience than mine can describe it for you.

Dave
 
gearup said:
HS 303/302 are bent out of flat stock... the area to be removed is to allow the mating plate HS308 to be attached to the 302 L&R remember, there is left and right for the 303 (forward spar) and the 302 (aft spar). Your elevators are attached to the 303.... preview plan #14 and #15....
Click to expand...

Yes, the HS-302 and HS-303 are bent from .032 stock as per preview plan #14 and 15, BUT the builder does not have to do the bending. These parts are pre-formed by Vans. There is no need for a 48" bending brake. :)

This project is beginning to look more and more doable.
 
David-aviator said:
Yes, the HS-302 and HS-303 are bent from .032 stock as per preview plan #14 and 15, BUT the builder does not have to do the bending. These parts are pre-formed by Vans. There is no need for a 48" bending brake. :)

This project is beginning to look more and more doable.
Click to expand...

Yes the project is indeed very doable and if it were just me in the decision process, it would be the RV-3. But there's more to it.

My wife is my best friend. She seldom expresses an opinion about my interest in aviation as she is primarily a grandmother, a retired teacher, and spends much of her time in the yard as a master gardener - and loves it and my exploits in an airplane. But once in a while she gets an urge to fly with me.

Today she commented, if you build the RV-3, I will not be able to fly with you in it. Would you consider building the RV-8 so I am not completely disconnected from your activity? A reasonable observation and question since we can not afford more than one airplane. Well, the answer is yes.

I would prefer the 3 but it doesn't matter all that much, I simply want to sit on the centerline of an airplane like when I learned to fly so many years ago. Sort of going back to your roots so to speak.

The RV- 8 is in. The matched hole technology makes it a QB compared to the 3. Hope to be flying the 8 sooner than later. :)

Thanks to all for the RV-3 information, encouragement, and positive feed.

David Domeier
Troy, MO
 
I think you made the right decision

I was going through the thread with the idea of throwing in my recommendation for the RV-8 vs. the RV-3B. Not only can you take the love of your life up with you when you want to and she wants to ... IT IS A BETTER AIRPLANE!

Anybody with any kind of insight and ability can take an existing design and create their own design with major changes to the basic airframe with new airfoils, wing shape, operational components, etc. and come up with a flyable airplane. As you said it is not rocket science. That is what Van admittedly did to evolve the RV-3B. The RV-8 is a clean sheet of paper airplane that is superior in every way to the RV-3 or any other RV in the only parameter that matters to me - SPEED! I was at the Prototype shop in 1996 when they were working on the fuselage ... God what a beautiful piece of work. The only thing ugly about it are those bat wing tips ... well the landing gear is a little stork like but ok I guess.

Bob Axsom
 
if you want to experience "building" an airplane, need the 2nd seat for 30% of your flying, go with the RV-4... the -8 is a kit, cost more, will go together easier, etc, etc... if you can, bum a ride in both....
 
Although we'd love to have you in the RV-3 world David, your decision seems to be quite rational for your situation - and you'll not be able to get me to choose between the -3 and the -8, which is why we now have both!

We are uniquely fortunate to be able to support multiple airplanes at this time in our lives, so we don't have to choose, but with both Louise and I as active pilots, we couldn't get by with ONLY a single-seater....

Paul
 
I hope your wife checks out the back seat first!

David,

Great reason to abandon thoughts about the -3. As much as I look forward to flying our -3, I can't imagine ever not having a 2- (or more) seater to fly with my partner and love. That said......

Please ensure that your wife checks out the backseat of an -8 and feels confident that the -8 will work for her. The ingress and egress into/out of the backseat of an -8 is much more of a gymnastic exercise than a side-by-side. I've known several perfectly mobile grandmothers and grandfathers say they will not ride again in an -8 again after struggling to get out the first time. (Think about those photos of Kari of Mythbusters looking like a toodler in the back of the -8 and then imagine how difficult it is to egress if you are short and not a gymnast!) I'm moderately tall and very agile, but I still struggle if I have a sore shoulder or a knee bothering me. Be sure your wife is comfortable now AND confident she will likely be comfortable in two years before making a final decision based on her wishes.

RV-8s are wonderful for pilots but not so much for passengers.
 
Louise Hose said:
David,

Great reason to abandon thoughts about the -3. As much as I look forward to flying our -3, I can't imagine ever not having a 2- (or more) seater to fly with my partner and love. That said......

Please ensure that your wife checks out the backseat of an -8 and feels confident that the -8 will work for her. The ingress and egress into/out of the backseat of an -8 is much more of a gymnastic exercise than a side-by-side. I've known several perfectly mobile grandmothers and grandfathers say they will not ride again in an -8 again after struggling to get out the first time. (Think about those photos of Kari of Mythbusters looking like a toodler in the back of the -8 and then imagine how difficult it is to egress if you are short and not a gymnast!) I'm moderately tall and very agile, but I still struggle if I have a sore shoulder or a knee bothering me. Be sure your wife is comfortable now AND confident she will likely be comfortable in two years before making a final decision based on her wishes.

RV-8s are wonderful for pilots but not so much for passengers.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the thoughts. She will fit being 5-2 and 110 but how this will play out in the future is unknown. We both are in fairly good shape but normal aging issues, like a bit of pain now and then, are something you learn to live with. Building his airplane has got to be better to go than sitting in front of a TV the rest of our lives.

I sat in a friends RV-8 yesterday. In fact it was the airplane on the front cover of Vans 2012 calendar, a very nicely built machine. It is a bit more crowded than the 7 but I like it. Stick in the right hand, throttle in the left, that's the way it should be. If the weather had been better, we would have flown it. But that's not really necessary, I AM motived. :)

Talk about good friends, another guy called yesterday and offered to move is Cub to my hangar for a few months so I can bone up on tail dragging. I definitely will take him up on some duel later in the program. I have been double qualified in the Citabria and RV-6 but do need some more work on wheel landings.

Thanks for posting the fast back conversion reference, Mike. That is an interesting option. The basic design is very similar to what Burt Rutan had with his airplanes. The one down side of it is if it ever opens in flight, the pilots natural response is to try to close it and that almost always resulted in a loss of control and crash. The Vans slider will not open very far in flight. I was looking at all the completed RV-8s in that show me thread and there is one in there with the canopy slightly open. I should have read the message with it, there probably is an explanation.
 
David, you need to talk to Dan Horton about the ShowPlanes canopy. He is flying with one.

The slightly open canopy is probably in the taxi position, you can lock it an inch or two open for ventilation.

An additional benefit of the setup is a wider shoulder area for the pilot.
 
Hi David,
After reading all the encouragement in this thread, I was just about to order an RV3 kit myself! Sometimes I wish I had a "3" just so I wouldn't have to take anybody with me, and I would then never have any "degradation" of performance. Then again, I also wouldn't have any of the fond memories of flying with my kids. I absolutely love my RV8!!!! It is far more versatile than the RV4 due to the fwd baggage area. As for egress, my wife is 5'9" with long legs and getting in and out isn't as easy at all compared to the side by sides.
However, your wife being so petite will probably make a world of difference.

Good luck with your 8!

Here's a link to my canopy mod.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=33413&highlight=improved+ventilation

I just did this same mod on my latest build.

Best regards
Jon
 
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Come on Mutha.....you've got a serious hole in that fabulous resume'!! I have no intention of getting rid of my -8.... you can house an additional airplane!
 
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