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Panel Layout Review

David_Nelson

David_Nelson

Well Known Member
Hey Guys and Gals,

I've been crunching along with my panel design over the last couple of evenings - man, this is harder than it first appears. I've gone through the archives and taken notes of various comments and feedback. I'd appreciate any feedback on my design (hopefully I'm a good student) :). So, to begin:

Mission profile is X/C w/ "light IFR" capabilities. I'm currently a VFR pilot but want to pursue getting my IFR ticket after this project is completed. I'm a "functional", "good value", "bang-for-the-buck" kinda guy - don't all those contradict all that is aviation? :D I'd like to keep upgrade paths, if possible, as my needs/desires/interests expand and more $$$ becomes available. Having said that, I honestly don't think I've any real interest in flying to minimums. I do want to be able to get through cloud layers and have reasonable "plan B's" available to make it down in one piece if I need to.

I tried to keep "one time use" items/switches in the upper left. "Laundry soiling" items in the lower left. Commonly used items to the right of that making use of spacing and tactile feedback for determining what/where things are located. Primary avionics are on the pilot's centerline. Everything else is in the center of the panel. Electrical system will most likely be based on a single alt/bat w/ an E-Buss (ie. Z-11 architecture). This is by no means final layout - there are other switches I want to consider, add some kind of entertainment to the right side (DVD player for example), etc.

The export to GIF, JPG, etc didn't really work very well. So, PDF it is:

- REMOVED -

Thank you,
 
Last edited:
Hi David...nice layout.

Several comments:

If you are going to do any IFR, I would add a backup ASI and ALT. Added cost is not great, and if EFIS goes TU, you have options. Also, helps in IFR training (no gyro). Also, a smaller backup battery is good (no EFIS dropouts) and gives another basic function backup. Wiring per Nuckolls is easy.

300XL is a good radio, but over the hill. Drop the SL30/300XL and go with a 430W, add a backup com (handheld or A210). You will want the low GPS approach capability. Remember, there is really not a "light IFR" X/C capability that makes much sense (at least to me as a CFII)...you really cannot count on weather not to deal a few surprises to you. And the 430 is nicer (and will help sell when your ready to move on/up).

I assume you are going with XM weather on the GRT. I'm going with the 496 based on personal experience with the 496 and forum comments on limitations of the GRT XM setup (may be improved in the future, who knows?). In any, case, XM weather is a must have for serious X/C work unless you have lots of vacation time for traveling.

I would move the boost pump over near the throttle...

I like a stick that has PTT, trim, flaps and A/P disconnect. That gives you two hands on flying in the pattern and if in formation. If you don't go that way, then add the A/P disc to the panel.

One man's opinion only...
 
These are strictly my personal thoughts and you will probably get a different opinion from everyone that responds. That's good, you will be able to take it all and formulate your own opinions with all the information.

First, there is talk on the GRT yahoo group that GRT will have a calculated AOA capability in the first quarter next year so you may not need the separate indicator or unit. Second, for IFR you will really need two screens. The EIS unit is nice but there is nothing like the full map and engine graphics that you get on the EFIS. I am finding that once I get into cruise and want a CDI I pop the HSI view on split screen with the flight display and split the second screen between a map and engine monitor. I also have a moving map in my GPS/Nav/Comm. You can use the EFIS for your CDI. Third, keep any switches you will need in flight centered and on the right side if you fly with your left hand. You'll find as you build all your panel requirements that more switches will become necessary along with circuit breakers/fuses. Don't forget the USB port for the GRT. My personal preference is keeping all switches lower on the panel. They look cluttered when bunched up high.

With the electric panel you should seriously consider a back-up battery. The Odysseys are light and relatively inexpensive so going with two on the firewall especially if you are an 7A would be a good idea.

All this said, I love the GRT. The people there have been fantastic to work with and helped me through a lot of settings with a smile on their faces.
 
Move Avionics, Pitot Heat, and E-buss switches over to where the other switches are. If left where they are at, it makes you take your hand off the stick.

Try to arrange everything so that you Throttle hand can operate it.

Move Boost pump switch to the left side of your row of switches. Should be able to raise finger with hand on throttle to turn boost pump on. Move FLAP switch by itself. Possible double spaced from boost pump above mixture. Have it so that you do not need to look on final to work flaps.

I like lights as most important on left with least important on right. Strobes, landing lights, nav lights.

Avionics switch can go above the radios near your annc lights.

Parking brake is not used much. May want to place it forward of the panel on the outside pilot wall. Put it where you can reach it but is out of sight from someone walking by. It kind of becomes a theft deterrent as someone trying to steal the airplane may not know where it is at.
 
David, you asked for it.

Flap and boost pump switches should be able to be operated without removing your hand from the throttle.
Alt Air should be close to the Throttle.
AOA should be close as possible to your line of site on landing, IE between you and the center of the runway. Move it to the right of EFIS, up high.
Annunciator lights should be above the EFIS.
Engine monitor doesn't need to be below the EFIS, and this area could be used for some backup instruments (ALT, IAS, T&B).

Not sure what the black circles labeled FLOOD and INST are.

Keep thinking it through. I change my panel layout at least 10 times before I installed it in the plane, and twice sense.:eek:

Kent
 
It's a long process

The panel is where we have the most artistic/ personal expression (aside from paint) on these projects so you might very well spend a lot of time thinking through your deisgn. http://adap.com/rv7/Panel.htm shows my own evolution over the course of 15 months. I started the panel design about the time I was doing the fuse. bulkheads and had it pretty much done when I was ready to cut the panel. It also evolved from Blue Mountain/ JPI to GRT but there were also some constants along the way. Just my own 2 cents, take your time and think through the panel. Make a lot of drawings and see what you like. Everyone is different so you'll get a lot of answers.
 
Do I need marker beacon with 430

I am thinking the same configuration GS430W, with handheld backup comm. Question is do I need marker beacon with GS430 for ILS? I would rather buy a simple intercom than a PS7000 with marker beacon. I will be working on my IFR rating in the -7A so I need to have full up ILS. PS Engineering makes a seperate beacon light display, but not sure of the cost.

Thanks
 
Thoughts on switch layouts....

I don't necessarily disagree with much of the advice given above, and most of it is good. I would offer one alternative to think about when it comes to switch locations however. I like to have switches grouped functionally, such as putting all of the lighting switches in the same place, power switches together, etc. And a lot of folks like to put the Fuel Pump right next to the throttle so that you can "get at it instantly" if you need to. However....the need to do that might arise once or twice in your flying career - or hopefully never, if you keep fuel in both tanks and your engine well maintained. But on EVERY flight, you'll be going through a pre-start, start, preflight, etc sequence. I like to have my cockpits laid out so that each of these procedures flow in a sequential manner - right to left across the cockpit, or clockwise around the panel for instance - so that you don't have to jump around.

You can probably do both with clever design (put the Fuel pump next to the Throttle), and in fact, I did that in the Val because of the left hand throttle. But in Louise's -6, I put the Fuel pump over by the Master so that the engine start can still flow. It's not hard to memorize the emergency switch locations - but why compromise every flight for those rare occasions?

As I said at the start, I am not saying that others are wrong - just offering something additional to think about. Write your checklists down and than "run your cockpit" and see how they work. If they jump all over the place, you might not be ready to cut metal....

(I probably went through a dozen layouts - that I thought were done - on the Val, and Louise's took almost an equal number. It's not a quick process!)

Paul
 
Given that you're building a tip-up, my experience is that there is no need at all for the GRT USB port on the panel. Pop your usb key in before flight and yank it out after from behind the panel. Come out and try it. You'll agree.
I would push the left switch cluster a little more to the right. You'll be operating those switches with your left hand and will find, in the end, that they feel a little weird stuffed too far to the left. I agree that the brake control doesn't need to be quite that prominent. I use mine about once per 20hrs. Keep the brake but move the control. I would save the width in the center control for leg room (you are taller than many).
Don't neglect panel dimming of everything. I didn't provide dimming control on a couple things and had to go back and rework when I started flying more at night.
I would prepare from the beginning for a 430W in the future when the funds are available. I'm not sold on the "calculated" AOA from GRT just yet. I consider the independent AOA a very important backup instrument.

Just my opinions...
 
Need for AOA?

In a light airplane like this, AOA isn't necessary. It might be fun to look at once in a while, but in a real trouble situation, you won't be using it anyway.

Only airplane I flew that needed AOA indication in the cockpit was the T38. Alot of heavy jets use AOA input for flight data computations, and to display max-pitch on the primary flight display, but AOA isn't shown as a primary indication to the pilot. We don't need it here either.

IMHO, I'd nix the AOA system and add redundant primary flight information (att, alt, a/s and some kind of backup nav). You need something to fall back on if the EFIS goes Tango-Uniform.

And I'll second Ironflight's comments. A cockpit needs to be an efficient working environment for the pilot/crew. I think the priority should be to achieve that first, with attention given to tasks performed on every flight given lots of thought. Make it flow - make it WORK for you. Emergency functionality should be right there, of course, but those functions shouldn't present a "speed bump" that get in the way of normal ops.

A great benefit to building your own airplane is that you get to pick and choose from all the ideas presented here and elsewhere. I did two panels for my RV4, and two more for the 8. Tells you how easy this is!!

Fly safe...
 
Bang for the Buck - Playing w/ numbers

Ok, I'm taking everything in and letting it all soak into the gray matter. There were some things I thought I had nailed on rev1 which repeatedly came up otherwise. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Guys! When I think I'm done w/ rev2, I'll repost and see what comes.

So this afternoon, I asked my self, "How do I measure bang-for-the-buck"? This is what I came up with. I took all the candidate h/w that I'm interested in, assigned a weight of '1' to each "primary hardware feature" - i.e. a value of 1 for a Nav, or a value of 2 for a GPS w/ WAAS. I gave a .5 for hardware that could do something "neat" or special. Say for instance, the SL-40 which can actively monitor two freqs. Hopefully I have a reasonable grasp on the capabilities of the h/w. I then divided this "feature factor" into the cost of the hardware. I got the prices from recent quotes and they do not include harnesses, s&h, taxes, etc. Also, the quotes assume _new_ hardware (trying to keep apples to apples as best as I can). There aren't any emotional weights as we all know that emotion can override everything - the "I just gotta have that Unobtanium Model". :D

Surprisingly, the worst value was a 155XL w/ an SL40, but it's the cheapest - go figure. Things that I had thought, "yeah, that'd be the ticket", didn't really turn out that way. Read into it what you want, have fun, and enjoy. I certainly have and it's helped me to better understand (read accept) what is to come.

155XL + SL40 (GPS + 1.5xCOM) => 4200/2.5 = 1680
480 = 8685 (GPS/WAAS/2xNAV/1.5xCOM) => 8685/5.5 = 1579
480 + SL40 (GPS/WAAS/2xNAV/1.5xCOM + 1.5xCOM) => 10100/7 = 1443
430W + SL40 (GPS/WAAS/NAV/COM + 1.5xCOM) => 8240/5.5 = 1373
300XL + SL40 (GPS/NAV + 1.5xCOM) => 4730/3.5 = 1351
430W + SL30 (GPS/WAAS/NAV/COM + 2xNAV/1.5xCOM) => 9995/7.5 = 1332
155XL + SL30 (GPS + 2xNAV/1.5xCOM) => 5955/4.5 = 1323
300XL + SL30 (GPS/NAV + 2xNAV/1.5xCOM) => 6485/5.5 = 1179
 
Functional

All of the comments are valid. You have a nice layout. Here are some thoughts.

I noticed you have a SL30 but no VLOC control head. I have a Garmin 106A head. I'd add one for a back up and for just doing it the old way. Also a back up AS, Alt, and DG. This is important if you are going to work on that IFR ticket.

Going off course for a second, I'm up to my butt in IFR training at an accelerated school that flies old POS Cessna 172s. The first couple hours were tough because I hadn't flown a 172 in 20 years, the DG's weren't that good and I had to use the compass lots!!! Holding course and capturing radials was an early challenge. On my way home from a 3 day session in my RV I'm now flying a plane that isn't shaking needles in 20 degree increments, holds altitude, and turns smoothly. Despite having an AP with GPS steering, I hand flew all the way home, (only an hour) and capturing radials was easy.

My point put a VOR head in for back up and training that you will need.

I second the thought of adding a 430 or at minimum a panel mounted 496 (or the next iteration). I would seperate the weather from your main EFIS if possible. Simply a CRM issue. I have a 430 and added the 496 with weather.

Now, if doing again, my first piece of equipment would be the Vertical Power system. This is one of the most dynamic pieces of equipment to come along in while. This will eliminate most of your switches and breakers and dramatically ease the overall wiring. I'm also leaning toward the Advanced EFIS system.

I've heard comments that "too much stuff in one box, and if it fails you're screwed." Well once reviewed and understood I'm confident the Vertical Power system will be near the top of your list.

Keep it as simple as possible to meet your objectives.
 
Speaking of doing it again....

I built my panel with the idea that I would be able to do IFR with complete redundancy. Now that I am flying my plane, I don't think that I will be doing IFR as my wife won't go in the clouds and my primary mission for the both of use to do some traveling.

My panel as of my first flight:
BMA EFIS Sport
BMA EFIS Lite
BMA AP
SL 30
GNS430
PM7000M
AT50
AFS 2500
AFS AOA
backup ASI, ALT, Turn & Bank, compass.

I later added 496 (so I could have weather):cool:

So if I were to do it again:
EFIS (Lite)
AFS 2500
AFS AOA
(maybe the above three would be AFS 3400)
496
SL 30
backup ASI, ALT, Turn & Bank, compass
and a lot of money left over for gas.:):D

I do consider the AOA to be required safety requirement.

Kent
 
Vertical Power Systems

Looked up info on the Vertical Power systems Bus. Pretty impressive, but would it really be your first choice in system requirements?
 
Clarification

Bugsy said:
Looked up info on the Vertical Power systems Bus. Pretty impressive, but would it really be your first choice in system requirements?
Click to expand...

It would be my complete power system. From there, I'd have to see what is available at the time. The electronics stuff changes too often.
 
David_Nelson said:
Ok, I'm taking everything in and letting it all soak into the gray matter. There were some things I thought I had nailed on rev1 which repeatedly came up otherwise. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Guys! When I think I'm done w/ rev2, I'll repost and see what comes.

So this afternoon, I asked my self, "How do I measure bang-for-the-buck"? This is what I came up with. I took all the candidate h/w that I'm interested in, assigned a weight of '1' to each "primary hardware feature" - i.e. a value of 1 for a Nav, or a value of 2 for a GPS w/ WAAS. I gave a .5 for hardware that could do something "neat" or special. Say for instance, the SL-40 which can actively monitor two freqs. Hopefully I have a reasonable grasp on the capabilities of the h/w. I then divided this "feature factor" into the cost of the hardware. I got the prices from recent quotes and they do not include harnesses, s&h, taxes, etc. Also, the quotes assume _new_ hardware (trying to keep apples to apples as best as I can). There aren't any emotional weights as we all know that emotion can override everything - the "I just gotta have that Unobtanium Model". :D

Surprisingly, the worst value was a 155XL w/ an SL40, but it's the cheapest - go figure. Things that I had thought, "yeah, that'd be the ticket", didn't really turn out that way. Read into it what you want, have fun, and enjoy. I certainly have and it's helped me to better understand (read accept) what is to come.

155XL + SL40 (GPS + 1.5xCOM) => 4200/2.5 = 1680
480 = 8685 (GPS/WAAS/2xNAV/1.5xCOM) => 8685/5.5 = 1579
480 + SL40 (GPS/WAAS/2xNAV/1.5xCOM + 1.5xCOM) => 10100/7 = 1443
430W + SL40 (GPS/WAAS/NAV/COM + 1.5xCOM) => 8240/5.5 = 1373
300XL + SL40 (GPS/NAV + 1.5xCOM) => 4730/3.5 = 1351
430W + SL30 (GPS/WAAS/NAV/COM + 2xNAV/1.5xCOM) => 9995/7.5 = 1332
155XL + SL30 (GPS + 2xNAV/1.5xCOM) => 5955/4.5 = 1323
300XL + SL30 (GPS/NAV + 2xNAV/1.5xCOM) => 6485/5.5 = 1179
Click to expand...

I find your approach enlightening. I fly about 100 hrs. a year. Operationally, I've flown IFR throughout the Northeast with an SL30 and VFR GPS (Garmin GPSmap76), not even an aviation gps. I've uploaded VOR and airport waypoints into it. I backup the comm with a handheld radio, which was my only comm prior to installing the SL30. I can connect it to the external comm antenna. I've thought about getting an IFR gps, specifically the 300XL, but haven't bought, yet. It seems like the only utility I'd gain is gps approaches, at a significant $ cost/approach.

I file as a RV7/U and fly direct as much as ATC will allow, which typically is to the next distant VOR to take some kinks out of the oftentimes convoluted airway routing in the northeast. I have been asked directly by ATC if I have a gps onboard, to which I reply,"Affirmative." Then they ask, "Where do you want to go direct to?" I typically respond,"Direct to my destination." To which they say,"Cleared direct to destination." They don't seem to care whether it's a "VFR" or "IFR" gps for enroute nav. This has occurred regardless of whether Vmc or Imc conditions prevail.

I think they can tell by how you fly your route on their scope. If your routing takes you direct to the VOR ahead, you are nominally using the VOR to get there, but who says you can't punch in the same fix on the gps and use that to navigate while monitoring the VOR needles. If you fly the VOR, you "weave" your way to the fix following the typical waviness in the VOR course. The gps goes in a nice straight route to the fix. I know it's great circle, but for 100 or 200 mile legs the difference is very small, well within the 4 nm airway width allowed for VOR navigation.

I presume that from the direct, straight, no-nonsense path of the gps when coupled to your TruTrak, the controllers are sharp enough to suspect that you might have a gps onboard, of whatever stripe, so they ask. Kudos to them and good for us. Everybody wins. Just don't lie on the flight plan form by filing an incorrect equipment suffice.

I'm comfortable with this minimal setup. If all the plane's electrical power dies and my handheld comm fails, I'll just continue on toward my destination or VFR conditions, whichever occur first and call FSS after I land. All of this backup equipment is good for addressing each pilot's comfort level, but it seems that all your really need to hear is,"Cleared for takeoff." After all, for comm failure, in so many words the FARs say follow these rules and call us after you land. They'll be watching you and probably give you greater separation than if they were talking to you.
 
kentb said:
I built my panel with the idea that I would be able to do IFR with complete redundancy. Now that I am flying my plane, I don't think that I will be doing IFR as my wife won't go in the clouds and my primary mission for the both of use to do some traveling.

My panel as of my first flight:
BMA EFIS Sport
BMA EFIS Lite
BMA AP
SL 30
GNS430
PM7000M
AT50
AFS 2500
AFS AOA
backup ASI, ALT, Turn & Bank, compass.

I later added 496 (so I could have weather):cool:

So if I were to do it again:
EFIS (Lite)
AFS 2500
AFS AOA
(maybe the above three would be AFS 3400)
496
SL 30
backup ASI, ALT, Turn & Bank, compass
and a lot of money left over for gas.:):D

I do consider the AOA to be required safety requirement.

Kent
Click to expand...

Kent, does the 430 allow you to monitor the standby channel like the SL40? Also, your new config does not have the PM7000 since you seem to now be a single COMM and you dont use it for any of the other features?

- Matt
 
idleup said:
Kent, does the 430 allow you to monitor the standby channel like the SL40? Also, your new config does not have the PM7000 since you seem to now be a single COMM and you dont use it for any of the other features?

- Matt
Click to expand...

430 can't monitor 2nd freq. One radio, no Audio panel needed. I would still carry my hand held and have an easy way to connect to the external antenna if I needed it.

Kent
 
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