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Panel Input/Thoughts

TTU_RV7

TTU_RV7

Active Member
Hey everyone,

So I have been paying close attention to the 696 discussion and since I am just about ready to cut metal on the panel, I thought I better see how the 696 would look if I dropped the 496 from my plans for the 696. Well personally I think it looks busy, but not anymore busy than other aircraft I have flown.

Here is the overall plan.
1. Go ahead and cut the panel to include the upgrades I already plan to make after first flight. (Copilot GRT, SL30, 696)
2. Ergonomics and natural flow are important. Its a lesson I learned from very experienced human factors people.
3. Right now, this is a VFR night airplane. Eventually, I might go with standbys and maybe a 430 to make it legal, but that's not the plan right now.
4. I did add .5" to the bottom of the panel. It makes the GRTs fit better and I may not even need to mod the panel supports.

Thoughts??

321861799490e7544c8fe9.jpg
 
My opinion only, but I think that looks a bit busy, especially for vfr goal.

- Is it possible to eliminate one of the GRT's? Maybe eliminate the lower GRT on pilot side, or just put the 696 in the copilot position? Things on the copilot side are still easy use manual/visual for pilot.
- I'm not a GRT expert, but since you have dual or better GRT's, can you also eliminate the EIS display?
 
Just my opinion, but wow is that a busy panel! I like simplicity with redundancy. Your panel is far overkill for a VFR airplane. You have 4 engine monitoring screens and 3 Artificial Horizons (or 4 if the 696 gives you another one)!

You can take a look at my panel to see what I prefer, but just to summarize I have a redundant EFIS & engine monitoring system. The only thing I don't like about mine is the bare space above my comm, but I left it that way for the day I have the money to buy an SL-30.

picture%20023.jpg
 
I thought for a second that was the panel for the nextGen Space Shuttle, oh wait, VF&r 7. Well if you got that much cash I'm sure you can configure the screens to your liking. Busy, well not really because you acclimate to the aircraft you fly. In this case you would end up with a whole bunch of display area and do less button pressing. Just hope you have money left over for gas :D
 
Eliminate the bottom GRT on the pilots side. Keep the 696 to the left of the radio stack, just as you have it.

My 496 is in the left corner area of my panel and about mid way up on the panel. After flying other planes with the GPS towards the middle of the panel, I much prefer them that way. Especially the larger screen of the 696. I'm selling the 496, and relocating a 696 to the spot you've shown. I want to see it...........more than the radio stack.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Mikey,

Take another look at your switch placement.

On a bumpy day, with the switches stacked like that, you will be bumping the switches above and below the one you really need to turn on or off.

That is one reason you see so many of them lined up. Also think about your switch grouping. I prefer to group the switches by phase of flight, rather than function. Thus all the switches used for starting are grouped together. The interior lights and carb heat are in one place (over on the right, out of the way), the things needed for takeoff and landing are centered around the throttle quadrant. Flap switch to the right so I can raise and lower the flaps w/o taking my hand off the throttle. Fuel pump and carb heat to the left of the throttle quadrant so my hand can push the throttle full forward, push in the carb heat, and toggle the flaps up in one move.

Check out these pictures for clarity:
 
Carbon Fiber

yakdriver said:
Sonny, Your panel looks great. That carbon fiber must have taken a long time to lay up.:D Don
Click to expand...

Not to hijack the thread, but I can get CF blanks to make panel overlays. They are 3 layers of 8 oz glass followed by 2 layers of 45 degree CF, vacuum bagged with a very deep finish.
 
Some thoughts

I agree with the others, waaaaaay too much stuff. Dump the right efis, dump the engine thingy below the radios, move the stack over, put the 696 where the radios were.

You'll save money and your CRM will be much easier.
 
Hi Jack(ed) thread

Thanks Rick and Don! I am very pleased with the MGL EFIS units. They are amazingly robust. I really like "betty"...although I may disable it for the first few flights.

Don, props to you for the idea with the panel, but mine isn't no where as good as yours. I ended up using vinyl with a carbon-fiber print on the aluminum panel. Actually looks OK, but it's a little too glossy...I may take it off if it's a problem.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Darwin. I was just giving Lostpilot some ****. He came over and saw my panel and liked it. That panel is done with a carbon fiber overlay called Dragonplate. It is a thin layup of CF with a 3M backing. With a heat gun you can get it to go around a very tight radius. Really easy to get a great result. Don
 
Mike,

For us VFR pilots, what is the advantage of the 696? I understand that is has lots of IFR chart stuff. Does it have sectional charts? Without the sectionals, why would a VFR pilot want to pay over $3k for one?

Good Luck!

Tom
RV-7A N175TJ Flying
 
Great Input

Thans all. Most of you have touched on the debates that I am having as I look at the panel. A couple of things though:

1. The EIS is required for the GRT. It actually does all the processing and then ports it to the nice EFIS display.

2. I think I am in agreement about ditching the second display on the pilot side. It really was there for NAV/Eng purposes, but the Eng data can be on a column at the bottom of the PFD and the NAV data can come from the GRT. Also my expereince is with them stacked and not side by side. I don't get to fly up front in all those big fancy new Boeings. :( Maybe Paul Dye can give some input here on as to replacing the NAV screen with the 696.

3. The copilot side display will not be there for 1st filght (unless I ditch the 2nd pilot side); however, I still want there to be a display there. I do fly with folks who can take over duties on long X-countries.

4. Bill, you are absolutly right about the switches and I thought about that alot when I organized them. I'm not sure how clear it is on the pic I uploaded, but all the engine start switches are together on the left and the lights and misc switches are on the right. The flaps switch will be on the stick. The only switches I should have to operate in flight are the fuel pumps which are top left and the lights on the bottom right. Everything else should be "On" for flight or set pre-takeoff.

5. While technically this is a VFR airplane, I do plan on doing "light IFR." I didn't want to say that because it always kicks off a nasty debate among some folks. There is no such thing as "light IFR", but there is light bad weather.

6. Tom, what the 696 offers over the 496 is viewing display. That to me is alot. IMHO, in a bumpy environment, little screens are bad and summer thermals in TX make for a bumpy ride.:D Also, the GRT has a built in GPS, but almost everyone says it is best as a back up. BTW, I have had a GPS go on the fritz before and tell me I was on course, when in reality it was driving me 50 miles off. :eek: Backups are required!!

7. Everyone is right about the $$$ side of it. :eek: That's one reason I love building. I can add as I go along. :cool: Again, right now 1st flight only includes 2 displays, one radio, the transponder, the autopilot, the audio panel, and possibly the AOA. I don't know that I will have the 696 by first flight, but it is possible.

8. One final thought (and this really is more of a warning to others) please do not view the 696 (or any GPS device which displays "panel info") as a backup instument. All the data displayed (speed, VSI, bank angles, etc) are dervied data from GPS information not accelerometers or gyros. From someone who works with this stuff everyday, please do not use it for anything other than "helpful" info. Derived data never replaces actual data from your airplane. Thsi is why I chose the ADI Pilot II which has the attitude indicator in it.

Keep the input coming.
 
Updated Design

Here is an updated design based on the inputs above. By ditching the 2nd Pilot display, it opens up room for the switches across the bottom of the panel. It also allows things to be moved down some.

More thoughts??

1400731521490f3ffacfd2c.jpg
 
More thoughts?

I like pretty much everything that you have said in your last post, and you panel is looking pretty good. The only thing I might point out is that yes, while the EIS is essential for gathering the engine/systems data to display on the EFIS, the display of the EIS itself is not essential at all, and you will quickly find that it is primitive beyond belief (since you have the EFIS). I wouldn't bother to give it prime real estate - use the panel space for something useful, or put it at the bottom of the radio stack where you can replace it later with an IFR GPS. On my -8, I have it down on a sub-panel - the only reason I touch it is to cancel alarms at start-up - it's where I can see it as a backup, but I have never had to use it as such. Some folks bury it behind the panel entirely.

Your panel will work very well with the two GRT's and the 696 - the 696 is a far superior moving map, so put the PFD (with engine strip) on the left, the map on the 696, and use the right side for engine/performance data. Frankly, the performance computations are one of the best things about the GRT - things like mpg, miles and fuel to go, etc - really takes the guess work out of cross-country flying. And it will be easy enough to see on the right.

Paul
 
Thanks

Thanks Paul. The more I stare at the design the more I didn't like the monitor there. I am going to move it back to the radio stack.

Now, if I just new how Stein was mounting the 696s....;):D
 
No biggie

yakdriver said:
Darwin. I was just giving Lostpilot some ****. He came over and saw my panel and liked it. That panel is done with a carbon fiber overlay called Dragonplate. It is a thin layup of CF with a 3M backing. With a heat gun you can get it to go around a very tight radius. Really easy to get a great result. Don
Click to expand...

Hey Don,

I saw that stuff. The problem here is AZ is keeping anything stuck with contact type adhesives. That is why I went with a lay up and used it as an overlay. My next one will be black and red carbon fiber.
 
TTU_RV7 said:
6. Tom, what the 696 offers over the 496 is viewing display.
Click to expand...

Out here in the mountains and deserts of the Mountain West, we're surrounded by lot's of restricted military areas in addition to MOA's, Class D & Class B airports.

The larger screen is just going to be a lot better, in regards to seeing boundaries without zooming in and out. I've always been a bit jealous of the Garmin 1000's, but the 696 will make up for it!

L.Adamson ---- RV6A/Garmin 496
 
Mikey,

Two things.
1) Your GRT can give you all the warnings and tones you will ever need, thus you really don't need the warning lights at the top of the radio stack.
However, I would recommend a green "fuel pump on" light at the top of the panel, centered in front of the pilot. (I used a small LED from Radio Shack.)
2) Since you are thinking about future upgrades, I highly recommend spending the cash on an Affordable Panels panel.
 
In your latest panel layout, I noticed there is very little room in between the radio stack and the surrounding equipment, .25" at some points. I think you will find it difficult to mount the radio trays in such a small space. I would recommend more room at each side of the radio stack.
 
subpanel ribs

Good point. You need room for the cages behind the panel as well as for the two panel support ribs.

On dumping the EIS: From the doc on the GRT site, if you buy a dual EFIS setup, you don't need the EIS itself in the panel. The secondary unit can diplay all the engine data. Voting twice: dump the EIS

The second panel iteration is much improved. You're so close to IFR, I vote you spend some more of your money on a GNS430W. Can't go wrong with the 430. It's the everyman nav/com.
 
Like the panel, but ditch the EIS to a subpanel, you can get all of the info on one of the EFIS's. I also strongly suggest (because of my age) that you build the panel with removable access sections and mount the instruments in these subpanels, then attach the subpanel to the main panel. This way, you can easily get to the wiring at the back of the instruments and the switches from adjacent access sections, if you know what I mean, and save wea and tear to your back, side, and reduce cable tie wounds. For my -9 I used riv nuts to hold these access subpanels in place - easy to install and if you buy the right ones, they hold in place really well. Also useful if you change instruments in future, you can prepare the new access subpanel with its instrument ahead of time, and then just take one subpanel out - real easy if you allow sufficient wiring for a maintenance loop at the back
Allan
 
Here is my suggestion....Leave the panel normal size, don't extend on the bottom. Keep MAG and POWER switches to the left, Other to the right close to throttle Quadrant. Some minor re-alignments of your instruments, look carefully lining switches left right, and center spacings. I did this quickly using MS paint from your picture.
panel.jpg
 
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