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Panel input requested

Greg Arehart

Greg Arehart

Well Known Member
I finished the bottom wing skins today and have gotten to the point of putting together a tentative panel design and would like input from the group on 1) functionality/ergonomics; and 2) any missing items. The mission is day/night VFR, at least initially. My wife is also a pilot and wants controls accessible from the second seat. Our goal is simplicity and cost-effectiveness, along with the aforementioned functionality. Panel is the standard sized Vans panel with no extensions. I'm not sure whether I have exactly the right number of circuit breakers, but it should be easy to add more in the final design (comments on whether to put all avionics on separate breakers?). Ultimately if we go to "light" IFR, we would probably replace the 496 with a Garmin 430 or whatever is equivalent. TruTrak is also down the road for budgetary reasons and will be a 2-axis (I have already installed necessary brackets). At present I plan to go with toggle switches and pullable circuit breakers. I have built a custom console for a quadrant throttle, which will also house the manual elevator trim and fuel selector. Quadrant is far enough from the panel that it should not interfere with switches accidentally. Two small steam gauges as "backup" and because I need something that is round on the panel! Final positioning is subject to slight adjustments as I encounter immovable obstacles (have already moved panel support ribs outboard). I am thinking of installing better vents than the standard Vans issue, in holes in the panel as shown. Powerplant is a Superior IO-360. RV-9A tipup.

arehartpanel108cm6.jpg


I will appreciate any input on what is good, bad, and ugly. Thanks in advance.

greg
 
Greg:

A couple of quick thoughts:

1. If you are thinking of a 430, might put in an audio panel now. Something like the PSE PMA-8000B will give you lots of functionalility plus a marker beacon. You'll get sufficient unswitched audios for all the signals from the Dynons and 430 along with stereo music feeds, wired in and front jack.

2. Might consider the TruTrak ADI Pilot with, the one with the wing leveler. This gives you a backup ADI and A/P. Good cross references, especially in the case of power loss (with the $100 battery option).

3. If no ADI backup, then put the A/S at the top of your guages. Don't need the A/P at the top. The top should be reserved for the most important instruments which you will be referenceing most. Less head and eye movement during busier flight regiems.

Have fun. This is a very fun part of building though it can be stressful. Also where cost can really stick its nose under the tent.

In the long run, it may be cheaper, faster and less painfull to build it the way you want it the first time instead of incrementally.

Jekyll
 
6 place

you may want to use a 6 place intercom ps 3000 (?) so you can pipe in the audio alerts and music or what ever. mine is similar to yours
NOTE: (Mark Scheuer PS Engineering) ps engineering said a 4 place would work the same for me. i still am not sure why PCA said to use a 6 place however

i like the left and right but went with both on one side

i did extend the panel down about 1.5 inches IIRC
 
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Switches

Greg, a little separation and grouping of the left side switches might help the cockpit ergonomics.

The lighting switches are already nicely grouped.

Any reason not to spread them out on the left side?

gil A
 
with the throttle

in the center wont he have to let go to actuate the switches if he puts them on the far left?
 
Spacing - throttles...

cytoxin said:
in the center wont he have to let go to actuate the switches if he puts them on the far left?
Click to expand...

Yes... but is it needed to activate the magneto switches, the master/alternator switch and the avionics master switch with your hand on the throttle?

If they are too close together, the chances of hitting the wrong one increase...:)

gil A
 
ohhhh

az_gila said:
Yes... but is it needed to activate the magneto switches, the master/alternator switch and the avionics master switch with your hand on the throttle?

If they are too close together, the chances of hitting the wrong one increase...:)

gil A
Click to expand...

i was thinking more of in flight but i see your point.
 
save weight and cost

You can save some complexity by using breaker/switches and eliminate the pullable breakers.

Also, my personal pet peve, no map box. I feel that this is a necessity in our small planes. You can trun the vans map box vertical and still have room for other stuff.

Bruce Reynolds
RV-6A 460 hours on grass
 
no doubt

Bruce Reynolds said:
You can save some complexity by using breaker/switches and eliminate the pullable breakers.

Also, my personal pet peve, no map box. I feel that this is a necessity in our small planes. You can trun the vans map box vertical and still have room for other stuff.

Bruce Reynolds
RV-6A 460 hours on grass
Click to expand...

i would no doubt go with switch breakers if i had it to do again.:eek:
except for the 2 and 3 amp stuff. sl30 com, nav dynon efis, ems and so on.
or maybe feed a fuse panel from the radio master.
 
Kind of following Gil's comments (formerly incorrectly refered to as Mel's), you might move the start switch to somewhere on the left side. You're going to need the right hand for throttle on the start so consider moving the start button where your left hand can easily activate it.
 
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and

you wouldnt want to be fumbling for the flaps and hit the starter... i think your intention is to do it onehanded but moving the starter and mags to the left as mentioned by gil is a good tip.
 
Actually, not the 6 place PM3000 (11932) but rather the four place (11931A) has the two unswitched inputs.

Mark Scheuer
PS Engineering
 
HMMMMM

mscheuer said:
Actually, not the 6 place PM3000 (11932) but rather the four place (11931A) has the two unswitched inputs.

Mark Scheuer
PS Engineering
Click to expand...
you should know better than me. i however was told this by pacific coast avionics....now that said. perhaps they thought i was gonna add some other device with voice alerts...like a gps? i did tell them i would later upgrade to a 496. dunno? i understand what they said and what i remember may very well be two different things. they did however tell me i neede a 6 place for what i had planned.:confused:
 
Greg,

I agree, put the switches you need to start the plane over on the left side. Your right hand will be on the throttle so why set it up to cross hands.

Put the flap switch to the right of the throttle so you can raise and lower them without taking your hand of the throttle. I've flown in a number of RV's where the pilot has to remove his hand from the throttle to activate the flaps, not a good thing.

Move the fuel pump switch location is good but don't put anything else close as that is one switch you will be using more than once in every flight, kind of like the flap switch.

I used breaker-switches where I could and pullable breakers everywhere else. Even if you go with auto fuses, put a pullable breaker on things that could give you trouble, such as the flaps, auto pilot, trim, and anything else you think you might need to turn off in flight.

Also, don't forget to leave enough room between switches and such for big hands. Here are a couple of pictures from my panel page that should help you out.


Switch Placement


Hand on throttle and toggling the flaps while pushing the carb heat in.
 
Thanks all, for the feedback. Seems like a good idea to go with the switch-breaker combo as it is one less thing to wire and/or break and will free up some space. I will have to more carefully think about how to locate the switches on the L side of the panel, and might move the lights to an alternate location to provide for a flap switch that is less likely to be accidentally activated. In terms of the mags/start switches, I would like to keep these close to the center of the panel if possible, as my wife will fly from the R seat and needs access to these if she is flying alone. The mags are less of an issue than the starter button. I have considered two start switches in parallel, one on the L side and another on the R side. Anybody done such a thing? Does it sound reasonable or am I asking for trouble with such an arrangement?

I will look into the higher-end intercomm and see if it will fit the budget. I also do plan to have a map/storage box somewhere in there below one or the other Dynon (thus the original design keeping the switches away from those locations), it just wasn't on the drawing.

Again thanks for the feedback. I certainly appreciate the opportunity provided by VAF to get such important info and quickly. I'll almost certainly have more questions as this proceeds.

cheers,
greg
 
Hi Greg,
This is where the fun starts!
I would also go with switch/breakers as many suggested. The one thing I do not like is the center console you have. Out of experience I can tell you that is very difficult to get in underneath the panel when you have to work there with this running down the center. If you really want it, make sure that you can undo it very easily, say by undoing two screws and moving it to one side.
Jan.
South Africa.

ZU-JAD, RV7A flying
ZU-MER, RV7A on wheel
ZU-RVT, RV10 still in crates
 
eliminate the vertical

One thing I have found a pain is the vertical center mounting panel for flight controls. If you can eliminate this panel, you will have more leg room. Being a 6 footer I find my knee always wants to rest against the center post. Not pleasant on a cross country. A small sub panel in the center eliminates the problem. This also makes it easy to position the flap switch right above the throttle. Very convienent.
 
Addition to panel

Great Panel. It is very close to what I have. You might consider adding Carbon Monoxide detector and the remote indicator for your ELT.

Aubrey Price
N600AP
RV7A
 
Just taking another look at your panel and have this thought...

Where do you look when landing? Out the upper right side? If so, put your AS up on the right side so it is in your line of site when landing. And, since you are moving that over there, put the Alt right under it and leave the AP on the right but move it up to the top.

As for the starting sequence and your wife flying from the right side. Is she going to do this all the time or only when you are in the plane? If it is only when you are in the plane, it is no big deal for the person over on the left to start the thing. As for two starter switches, that adds a good bit of complexity in an area, although not a flight issue, could leave you stuck on the ground some place away from home. If you want one set of switches for the mags and starter, put them on the top of the radio stack. At least up there, they are out of the way and there is little chance you will hit them while flying.

Also, since your wife wants to fly from the left seat, you might wish to think about putting the flap switch on the sticks and maybe some other things on there as well. Heck, you could even put the starter switch on there. Again, think about the complexity of these setups. Still, it would be cool.
 
Greg -

Like the layout. I'd suggest moving start and mag switches to the far left - your right hand will be working the throttle / mixture during start and there's less chance of bumping the switches.

Also, what about moving the backups to below or left of the Dynon and moving the radio stack more towards the pilot - you will be looking at the G396 a LOT. Perhaps AS to the left and others below?

TODR
 
I would also not do the center post. Also I would not make the panel any deeper than stock. Two reasons, legroom is one and access to the firewall area and under the panel is severely compromised with either or both. I have almost the same panel as you and will email some pics as I'm to illiterate to post pictures. Don
 
About the 496

You have enough room to put the 496 directly in front of the pilot below the Dynon. If you always fly with a copilot this is a non-issue, but for me, the moving map, WX, etc, belong in the narrowest scan and vertical scanning is less disorienting, too, I think. This would also leave room for the 430 where it belongs. The 496 map is much better, too.

There will come a time when you are in very poor viz and be grateful for a gyro and a map in a tightly defined area. I would hate to admit how I know this. In my 150 I had the 496 in the radio stack. It was OK, but centered is better. IMHO.

As to intercom, the SL-30 has a primitive voice operated one and it's all I have. There are lots of reasons to have something better, but you have to have those reasons to make it worth doing more.

I like the overall look and simplicity. Nice work.
 
Latest panel iteration

Thanks again for the suggestions. Here's what things are starting to look like:

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http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2014/p1040811vl5.jpg

From L to R:
fresh air vent
avionics breakers + master/mags/starter switches (exact position and spacing subject to change as I install)
D-100 + space for map/storage box or postit notes
Garmin 496 in airgizmo + SL30 Navcomm + 327 Xponder + intercomm (not sure which one yet) + flap switch (I plan to build a custom 4-position rotary switch for 0, 10, 20, full flaps)
Trutrak ADI autopilot + airspeed + altimeter + (space for future Zaon?)
Dynon D120 EMS + space for map/storage box
Hobbs meter + camera controls (see below) + nav/strobe/landing/taxi light switches
fresh air vent

Still need to figure out exactly where to put the headphone jacks, but plenty of space. The "camera" refers to my custom-installed high-resolution aerial photo setup in the R wing that will be tiltable in two axes and connect to a laptop for the copilot.

I ended up with a console because of some needs of my copilot (wife) who has a difficult time with standard push throttles. Thus I built this console that includes a throttle quadrant + boost pump switch + manual elev trim + fuel selector. Neither of us is particularly large, so the space is not an issue. The console is removable with a few screws for servicing. Both the console and panel were black anodized by a local outfit for about $75.

I have also decided that I am unlikely to end up installing a 430 in this panel because of the depth issues. If/when I get to the point of doing the 430 or something similar, I will probably redesign and rebuild the entire panel.

Again, thanks to everyone for the input. If you have anything else, I am happy to hear. Now I just have to figure out how to pay for all this!

cheers,
greg
 
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