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Page 09-02 steps 1-10

DonFromTX

DonFromTX

Well Known Member
I have been hours trying to figure this one out, archives seem to be of a little help.
It appears that the nutplate holes to be countersunk need to be "final drilled", the countersink will not even go in the hole, neither will the rivet. However noplace does it require (or authorize) final drilling of these holes.
Is this a common situation where you are just supposed to figure on drilling them out?
Also, I am getting confused by vague instructions where an arrow points to a hole to be countersunk, with a vague reference of "16 times". Come on now, with a hundred holes, how am I supposed to figure out exactly WHICH 16 holes get the treatment?
2lsel47.jpg
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DonFromTX said:
I have been hours trying to figure this one out, archives seem to be of a little help.
It appears that the nutplate holes to be countersunk need to be "final drilled", the countersink will not even go in the hole, neither will the rivet. However noplace does it require (or authorize) final drilling of these holes.
Is this a common situation where you are just supposed to figure on drilling them out?
Also, I am getting confused by vague instructions where an arrow points to a hole to be countersunk, with a vague reference of "16 times". Come on now, with a hundred holes, how am I supposed to figure out exactly WHICH 16 holes get the treatment?
Click to expand...

I final drilled the nutplate rivet holes and then did the countersinking. There are 8 nutplates shown on the spar, each has two rivet holes, therefore `16 times'. You get used to the way things are called up after a while.
 
Page 09-02

Hi Don,
Let's take this one step at a time. Step 3 says to countersink for 3/32" rivets. Are you using the correct countersink and not the one for 1/8" holes? The plans are pretty explicit and do not leave much for you to figure out. I would not ream out any holes unless they tell you to. Now if you look at HS-1202 in figure 1, find 8 holes that look a little bit bigger than the other holes. Those 8 holes are for the screws that go into nutplates. The nutplates get mounted diagonally and you will see that each nutplate gets two rivets. 2 rivets times 8 nutplates equals 16 places. There is another picture on page 09-04 that shows those nutplates (not the ones inside of the oval dashed line).
Be advised that HS-1202 and HS-1203 are not symmetrical. Also, the holes for CS4-4 rivets need to be countersunk at 120 degrees. Make sure that you use the correct countersink bit.
Hope this helps.
Joe
 
memory is not very good

Don,
Maybe I was wrong about not reaming out the holes since rgmwa said to do it. I am almost as old as you are and my memory is not very good. :D
Joe
 
Great photos, thanks for the help.
I am sure reluctant to start drilling out holes unless Vans says to "final Drill" them. Is this something I am going to find routinely in the building?
 
I remember that the countersink for the AN426 didn't fit sometimes in the prepunched holes. In the beginning I was also reluctant in doing something that was not mentioned but in two months you are an experienced RV-12 builder :D
 
Reading over other people and their problems with this page, it seems to be the consensus that you don't really need the 120 countersink, uust use the 100 and it will work fine. Comments anyone?
 
DonFromTX said:
Reading over other people and their problems with this page, it seems to be the consensus that you don't really need the 120 countersink, uust use the 100 and it will work fine. Comments anyone?
Click to expand...

Hi Don,

If you do not wish to invest in the 120 degree countersink then use a large drill bit that is 118 degrees it works much better than the 100 degree countersink for the pulled countersunk rivets. You do need the 120 degree dimples when they are called for.

Best regards,
Vern
 
DonFromTX said:
Reading over other people and their problems with this page, it seems to be the consensus that you don't really need the 120 countersink, uust use the 100 and it will work fine. Comments anyone?
Click to expand...

I'll own up and admit that I used the 100deg in ignorance for these rivets. However, the countersink depth looked OK for the thickness of the material, and I'm assuming that if Van's thought it was that critical, they would have said so on the plans.

Next time, I'll use the 120deg countersink, although I still haven't found where it says that these rivets are different to the others.
 
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But who remembers those little details?

I still haven't found where it says that these rivets are different to the others.
Click to expand...
Page 03-01 says:
Most commonly available flush head Blind
Rivets (often referred to as Pop-rivets, a trade name) have 120 deg. head angles rather than the 100 deg. for flush head AN rivets.
Click to expand...
But who remembers those little details from the introduction? It would be better if the plans specified 120 degrees for each step that requires it.
Joe
 
120deg C'sink

Mich48041 said:
Page 03-01 says:

But who remembers those little details from the introduction? It would be better if the plans specified 120 degrees for each step that requires it.
Joe
Click to expand...

Thanks Joe, and I agree. The plans are excellent, but it would be very useful if they had that extra note here and there to cover these little `non-standard' details. Still we learn by experience.

(Experience is what enables you to recognise the same mistake when you make it again! :( )
 
No problem really, I was looking over my countersink bits, and there was a 120 one in the kit I bought, so I used it where I was supposed to.
 
vernhendershott said:
Hi Don,

If you do not wish to invest in the 120 degree countersink then use a large drill bit that is 118 degrees it works much better than the 100 degree countersink for the pulled countersunk rivets. You do need the 120 degree dimples when they are called for.

Best regards,
Vern
Click to expand...
120 degree dimples??? I don't think I have those or was asked to use them yet. Where are they being used?
 
You need the #30/120 countersink bit for the CS-4 rivets. So you use the 120 countersink also for the stabilator, e.g. the rivets under the control horns are countersunk with the 120 countersink. When you countersink those holes with a 100 degree countersink you will end up with much deeper countersinks.
(you also use the 120 degree in the front spars, battery-oil bracket, wingtip lights)

The CCR-264SS-3-2 rivets are also 120 degree but they are so small that using the #40/100 countersink on them is o.k.

Be careful when countersinking "thin" material. For almost all my countersinks I use a doubler of aluminum to avoid wandering of the countersink resulting in an elongated hole.
 
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vernhendershott said:
The wing kit.

Best regards,
Vern
Click to expand...
I finished the wings. While there was a lot to machine countersink at 120 degs, the corresponding dimples in the skin were already done. I cannot recall any occasion where Van's had asked for a 120 degree dimple die to be used.
A 120 deg dimple die set is also not mentioned in the list of recommended tools and as far as I can remember, neither Cleaveland nor Avery are offering these as part of their RV-12 tool kits.
The few places where I dimpled holes for CS4-4 rivets worked just fine with the standard 100 deg dimple dies.
 
Use the correct tools

DonFromTX said:
Reading over other people and their problems with this page, it seems to be the consensus that you don't really need the 120 countersink, uust use the 100 and it will work fine. Comments anyone?
Click to expand...

Don
Order a 120° Dimple die and a Counter Sink
You Are building a 100,000 Dollar + aircraft.
I don’t think $ 50.00 will break the bank.
By using the wrong counter sink you are compromising the strength of the connection.

I bought mine from Mike at Cleveland tools

Good People

Use the time reading ahead it will help in the long-run
 
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No longer an issue, found my tool kit had one, used it on the stabilator as required in the plans, already got rivets set in the holes..
 
joedallas said:
Don
Order a 120? Dimple die and a Counter Sink
You Are building a 100,000 Dollar + aircraft.
I don?t think $ 50.00 will break the bank.
By using the wrong counter sink you are compromising the strength of the connection.

I bought mine from Mike at Cleveland tools

Good People

Use the time reading ahead it will help in the long-run
Click to expand...

Ok guys I have to check something here. I see pictures on the Smettering website of a tool he uses for the dimpling. I bought the Avery RV12 tool kit and I have several dimple dies none of them say 120 and I have counter sinks which are all 100's. Now I want to verify that the tool with the big red handles is used for pulling rivets and for dimpling, see the picture below

RV12KIT.jpg


I am going to order the 120 counter sinks for #30 and #40

I did not realize how much I had to learn ....:eek: :D

Peter
 
pietermk said:
Now I want to verify that the tool with the big red handles is used for pulling rivets and for dimpling, see the picture below

Peter
Click to expand...

The red handled tool is for squeezing AN-type rivets, and for dimpling. The two riveters towards the top of the picture (manual and pneumatic) are for pulling rivets. ie the `pop' rivets.
 
pietermk said:
I bought the Avery RV12 tool kit and I have several dimple dies none of them say 120 and I have counter sinks which are all 100's.
.........................
I am going to order the 120 counter sinks for #30 and #40

Peter
Click to expand...

The Avery RV-12 tool kit is supposed to have a #30/120 countersink. At least you already paid for it. You don't need a #40/120.
BTW an extra countersink cage comes in handy, otherwise you are changing the bits quit often.
 
DonFromTX said:
This is where my 120 degree was hiding in my Avery tool kit:
207p75f.jpg

2afcyl0.jpg
Click to expand...

I have that but I can't find the 120 in that box, I will look at it again tonight

Edit later tonight: I found it in the box shown. I looked at it last week and did not see the 120 on the countersink.... so now I have a reserve
 
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rgmwa said:
The red handled tool is for squeezing AN-type rivets, and for dimpling. The two riveters towards the top of the picture (manual and pneumatic) are for pulling rivets. ie the `pop' rivets.
Click to expand...

thank you, Now I know I am not going crazy :D

Peter
 
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