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O-320 fuel consumption question?

Nomex Maximus

Well Known Member
Hi all...

If I put an O-320 FP in my RV-7A(to-be), what kind of fuel consumption / performance should I expect? Van's page only lists for a CS and suggests 6.7 gallons per hour at 150 knots 8000...

Thanks,

JCB
 
Hi all...

If I put an O-320 FP in my RV-7A(to-be), what kind of fuel consumption / performance should I expect? Van's page only lists for a CS and suggests 6.7 gallons per hour at 150 knots 8000...
A fixed pitch prop can only be optimized for one condition. If you are at the altitude, airspeed and engine power that the prop is optimized for, the resulting performance will be pretty much the same as it would be with a Hartzell. This statement assumes that you have one of the more efficient fixed pitch props, such as a Sensenich metal prop, or a Catto. Some other fixed pitch props have blades that are thicker than a Hartzell, and this hurts the prop efficiency, which reduces the airspeed slightly.
 
It depends

Hi all...

If I put an O-320 FP in my RV-7A(to-be), what kind of fuel consumption / performance should I expect? Van's page only lists for a CS and suggests 6.7 gallons per hour at 150 knots 8000... Thanks, JCB
I think you meant 150 mph not knots.

For the Lyc 320 (160hp) generic max FF: 75% (120hp) = 10 gph, 65% (104hp) = 8.8 gph. To get down to 6.7 gph, about 70-75hp or about 45% power is simple, just reduce power and lean the heck out of it. Do that by flying higher (which is best if winds are favorable) or do it with the black knob. Yes you can fly at 45% power very nicely but probably not 150kts. Van actually list 171 mph, just shy of 150kts (172.5 mph) at 65% power, which is more the 6.7 gph, but not too much much.

From Vans RV-7A, w/ 160hp numbers:
Cruise [75% @ 8000 ft] 190 mph (solo); 189 mph (gross)
Cruise [65% @ 8000 ft] 171 mph (solo); 170 mph (gross)

150kts (172.5 mph) at 6.7 gph? From the above 65% is 8.8 gph! Well if you lean, use a lower RPM and are flying at 8,000 ft. FF can get down into the low 7's gph. So I am thinking 6.7 gph at 150 mph is very doable.

The bottom line keeps coming back to the black knob and red knob. Most pilots fly their RV at/above 65% power most of the time unless flying above about 13,000'. Also pilots don't lean early, often and enough sometimes.

The KEY to better speed for less fuel is lower drag as much as possible. Build it straight, light and clean, it will give you better MPG gas milage than most cars, easily in the 26 mpg or better range. Lower drag, prop efficiency, engine efficiency (electronic ignition, tuning, fuel injection). All these add a few percent better fuel econ here and there, LOP ops or not. Every few percent counts.

Constant speed props have a wide sweet spot in cruise, an ability to achive higher efficiency & thrust than a fixed prop, which has one sweet spot. Still many fixed props are optimized very nicely for a good efficient cruise, Sensenich being one of them. You lose control of RPM and take what you can get for that throttle setting. The ability to lower RPM in cruise is where the constant speed prop shines. For best engine/prop efficiency 2400-2500 rpm is about right. Most fixed props cruise at 2600-2700 rpm.

A compromise is called for with fixed pitch props. If you increase fixed pitch prop too much for a lower cruise RPM, you lose takeoff / climb performance. Sensenich has done a great job making that compromise work well. Their RV prop is customized and designed specifically for the RV. Fixed prop top speed has more to do with over revving the engine slightly than total efficiency. Go fast or burn less fuel, its up to you.

Keep in mind a O-320 at full throttle, sea level on take off is burning 16 gph! So for trip fuel, all that cruise fuel efficiency has to be averaged with your takeoff and climb. Good flight planing, climb, descent, arrival, approach and landing will save lots of fuel as well.

To brings it back to the pilot, most don't want to fly at 55% power much less 45% power. Most pilots don't want to fly at 150 mph much less 120 mph which is even better. You get use to doing 180 kts.

Some claim modest to significantly better SFC by running LOP (lean of peak). LOP usually almost means a well balanced FI system verses a Carb, which usually does not have sufficient fuel distribution precision to allow for smooth LOP operations. Some Carb guys have been able to run LOP. That is a whole other topic, but it can mean a few percent lower fuel burn. Even if you use "normal" lean technique and conservative power settings, you can achive greater fuel savings. Fly at say 55% power and lean to rough, enrichen enough to get smooth ops.

If you really want to save fly around at 110-120 mph! That is cessna speed but the fuel savings will be excellent. The most fuel efficient RV is the RV-9 with either the 235 or 320. If flown real slow you can get about 30 mpg (zero wind).
 
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I generally burn about 7.3 gph @ 150 kts. down low. Hi-compression O-320, Catto 3-blade 66 X 74.
 
I'd bet your speed will come in real close to what the -6 does. The -7 has a slightly larger wing, 121 square feet vrs 110 for the 6, so it might have just a bit more drag.

I think for a given fuel burn, the 0320 will produce the same HP as a 0360. If you set 7.5 gph in each the HP will be the same assuming the same leaning technique. The advantage of the 0360 is that it will burn more fuel and produce more HP because the combustion chamber is larger but if the fuel burn is set the same the results are about the same. The 0320 could be just a tad more efficient because it is a tad lighter but you probably can not measure it on the ASI.

To paraphrase George, if you want to go fast and cheap keep it light and clean. More HP would do the fast part but with the price of fuel these days you'll pay for it. The angle valve IO360's weigh a lot more than the 0320 and that extra weight does not get moved through the air for free. I'm thinking the simple 0320's and parallel valve 0360's will be more and more popular the closer 100LL gets to $10 a gallon.
 
6.1 GPH, LOP, RV-9A

Hiya JCB,

I know you asked about FP - but here is another data point.

I'm one of the odd ducks that can (and does) run LOP with my carb. My XC cruise set up is 7500ft or better, WOT, full carb heat, 2270 RPM on the Hartzell.

With this setup, I get 148-151 KTAS on 5.9-6.1 GPH consistently. This is in the 50% power range. I have an 8.5:1 O-320 with dual EI. Granted, it is slower than most RVs, but unless the trip is really long, it gets me there within a few minutes of the faster planes on most trips I take.

If you can get LOP, and into the bottom of BSFC bucket, you lose some speed, but get good economy - as George says, it's a tradeoff. Alex Peterson and I did a lot of work to obtain and reduce data to find the best place for me to run for best economy, and I am very happy with the results. (BTW - he can match these numbers with his FI 180 HP RV-6A and blow my doors off when he wants to.... I never liked that guy....)

My opinion is that EI or Dual EI with advance is the key (and the willingness to pull back on the knobs to find the best economy/speed).
 
RV6 faster the RV7 the heck you say! Outrage!

I'd bet your speed will come in real close to what the -6 does. The -7 has a slightly larger wing, 121 square feet vrs 110 for the 6, so it might have just a bit more drag.
WHAT RV6 SLOWER THAN RV6! :eek: :D

Actually you are right, but not totally. Vans numbers show the same 180hp top speed. Cruise speeds are about the same but the RV7 is 1 mph faster.

Why? Aspect ratio. The longer wing or increased wing area actually helps lower induced drag. However Vans numbers seem backward. I would think a RV6 would have slight TOP SPEED edge at low altitude with same HP, but not much apparently. I would expect, as Van shows, the RV7 has a cruise speed advantage at altitude, where the aspect ratio counts.

Wing loading is key. If you have a FAT RV you're in trouble. The issue with the RV6 is the 1600lb gross, which is hard for many builders to stay under due to high empties. The apples to other RV's as well as the RV7, but the RV7 was designed for 1800lb gross. I don't want to start a weight v speed issue, but YES weight has a small affect, not big affect on speed. It is small but its there, lighter is better. Of course I tell my self the RV7 is as fast as the RV6, since I went with the RV7. I considered a RV6 when choosing a kit, since they where still avaiable. However the better fuel and other features made me go RV7.

There is a long tradition of "clip wings" to get more speed. However the RV7 is not a long wing airplane to start with. Van had to add the greater area to keep the wing loading down for the higher gross, retaining the traditionally great great low stall speed RV's have. Actually the RV6 is a very short wing plane with the same span as the RV4 but a wider fuselage. It still flys nice (like a fighter if light) but you can get some serious sink at low speed. Also the RV6 is not going to "feel" as solid at high altitudes, high being into the teen's, as say the RV7 or 8.

The RV9 should be a great high altitude wing (28ft span, 124 sq-ft) but lower HP keeps it from flying into the height teens efficiently, since it runs out of power before wing.
 
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This is a very interesting thread to me. Just yesterday I posted a similar thread on another forum under the title of "Is fuel burn just a matter of discipline?". I'm trying to decide what engine is going to be right for my -7. I'm thinking that if I can get roughly the same fuel burn at roughly the same A/S by by just being disciplined enough to pull pack on the throttle, then I won't feel as "guilty" for getting the bigger engine for high/hot take-off performance.

JCB, I'm not trying to hijack your thread here. I think my next question kind of dovetails with your question......

If two Identical RV-7s with C/S props are flying in formation. One has 160hp and one has 200hp engine. Both are using optimal leaning techniques. How much of a hit will the 200hp aircraft take in fuel burn because of it's heavier weight and slightly worse BSFC at it's lower power setting? Is it significant? Thanks in advance.
 
My numbers

A couple weeks ago I did an airborne check of my fuel burn vs IAS vs cyl and EGT temps. At 8,500', OAT 45F, I set WOT and 2350 RPM on my O-320 (160hp) with Hartzell CS. I started with 8.6 gph on the Dynon and incrementally reduced by .2 gph. At 8.6 gph, my IAS was 133kts (apprx 154TAS). At 7.4 gph, I hit peak EGT (1421F) and Cyl temp (360F), with an IAS of 132kts. I continued leaning, and at 6.8 gph, I had an IAS of 130, with EGT (1387F) and cyl temp (348F). Below 6.8 gph, IAS dropped off to 125 IAS and the engine started to run a little rough.
It appears that my carb'd engine runs pretty well LOP, and with a net loss of about 3kts while saving about 2 gph, I think I've found my sweet spot (at least at 8,500').
Chuck Olsen
RV-7A
TSP
 
Thanks for the data points...

I guess I was thinking that the 320 would give lots less fuel consumption than a 360... the only data points I really have right now is what the 172 needs for fuel and that seems to work out to around 8 gallons per hour (180 HP).

Thanks

NM
 
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Nomex,

It depends how you measure the fuel consumption! If you use the Hobbs, connected to the master, then you may get close to the lower figures quoted. If you use airborne time, then 8 to 8.5 gph at 150kt is about the mark for a longish trip in my experience with a carb'ed O-320 in a 6A with a FP Sensenich. If you travel with an airplane with an O-360 and a CS prop he will use ).5 to 1 gph less than you, for the same speed. I don't know if that is due to the c/s prop or the O-360, but I have proven it to be the case on several occasions.

Regards, Pete
 
If two Identical RV-7s with C/S props are flying in formation. One has 160hp and one has 200hp engine. Both are using optimal leaning techniques. How much of a hit will the 200hp aircraft take in fuel burn because of it's heavier weight and slightly worse BSFC at it's lower power setting? Is it significant? Thanks in advance.

I have tried to keep away from this type of thread as there are so many apparently conflicting opinions and figures produced as regards bigger engines and fuel consumption. But I can't help myself. These are my thoughts. Many will claim that fuel consumption for the same airspeed will be less with a bigger engine. I can't see how this can be true given that both the smaller and larger engine will need to produce the same HP to produce the same speed, and that fuel flow is closely related to HP. The larger engine will have an advantage at higher cruise speeds where it can still run lean whereas the smaller engine needs to run at richer settings (say over about 65%).
RPM is an important factor for fuel consumption. An I0-320 leaned to "Best Economy" producing 65% power will use about 13% more fuel at 2700 rpm than at 2000 rpm (curve 12883 Lycoming Operators manual). For this reason, a C/S prop can give a fuel consumption advantage over a FP (especially a climb FP) as it allows cruise at low rpm.

Fin
9A Flying
 
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