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NX "N" Number

Jpm757

Jpm757

Well Known Member
I have been in a discussion with my DAR regarding 2 inch "NX" numbers for my Javron Super Cub, which should also apply to RV-3,4 & 6 aircraft. My interpretation of the regulations is that I can legally apply 2" NX numbers to my Javron. The reg. states that any aircraft over 30 years old is considered an antique, and may display 2" registration numbers. Additionally, under the definition of Antique aircraft, "A U.S. registered aircraft possessing a special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category for the purpose of operating an amatuer built aircraft with the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago". My Javron is registered as a PA-18 Replica.
Note that Legend Aircraft of Texas is delivering Cub replicas from their "builder assist" factory with 2" NX registration numbers.
It seems that this is another case of FAA "interpretation" of the FAR's, where one FSDO says OK, and another says NO.
I hope MEL weighs in on this one.
 
Jpm757 said:
I have been in a discussion with my DAR regarding 2 inch "NX" numbers for my Javron Super Cub, which should also apply to RV-3,4 & 6 aircraft. My interpretation of the regulations is that I can legally apply 2" NX numbers to my Javron. The reg. states that any aircraft over 30 years old is considered an antique, and may display 2" registration numbers. Additionally, under the definition of Antique aircraft, "A U.S. registered aircraft possessing a special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category for the purpose of operating an amatuer built aircraft with the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago". My Javron is registered as a PA-18 Replica.
Note that Legend Aircraft of Texas is delivering Cub replicas from their "builder assist" factory with 2" NX registration numbers.
It seems that this is another case of FAA "interpretation" of the FAR's, where one FSDO says OK, and another says NO.
I hope MEL weighs in on this one.
Click to expand...

Based on the regulation, you don't need to ask anyone.... just do it.
 
Yep! Perfectly legal. Just remember that the "X" is not part of your registration.

It is not used in any paperwork or communications.

The "X" simply replaces the "Experimental" placard.

I do certificate the "amateur-built" Legend Cubs on a regular basis.
 
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Yep, but my recommendation is that you carry a copy of the pertinent FAR‘s with you in your plane in case you ever get ramp checked. There is a large contingent of the FAA that is not at all aware of these rules and even if you show them it can be a sticky situation.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Yep, but my recommendation is that you carry a copy of the pertinent FAR‘s with you in your plane in case you ever get ramp checked. There is a large contingent of the FAA that is not at all aware of these rules and even if you show them it can be a sticky situation.
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I agree wholeheartedly. I always recommend this same thing to applicants.

As an aside, this rule is often abused. There are aircraft out there using this that don't really qualify. Of course there are lots of aircraft out there with registration numbers under the H.S. and so many other violations. But that a story for another thread.
 
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My airplane has the “X”. I carry print outs of every applicable piece of regulation in my plane with highlighted sections. I dont even know how many times i have been in a less than ideal situation because of other people not knowing the rules.

-My DAR took longer on figuring out if this was legal than the time he spent inspecting my plane.

-i was temporarily grounded during an airshow performance by the FAA. 4 guys looked at my plane/paperwork. The paperwork on hand did not help. Then they looked at my Ops Limitations and saw that the portion that should say “Experimental must be displayed” was not there and said the airplane was not allowed to fly at all until a new Ops Limitation was issued. They told me to fly home and ground the plane until i got the paperwork right. I got home and sent the FAA more info on several occasions and they never even replied. I called the FSDO and they said “dont worry about it”.

-Plane got grounded at the Reno races during tech inspection. Long story short, i had to write “Experimental” on the plane with a magic marker before i was allow to fly. Even though we had no issues during the previous year at tech inspection.

-ramp checks on a standard weekend are also fun.

I dont want to come across as negative. I do want you to be aware of some of the things out there that you may experience. And the fact that even though you may be right, the other person you will be interfacing with may not know that.

Best wishes.
 
I can hardly wait until 2025 when I can put an X on my 8. Then everything from me on down will be antique!
 
David Paule said:
Mel, does a single-seat airplane need the passenger warning?
Dave
RV-3B now working on the cowling
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Negative! It used to be required, but no more.

Single seat aircraft do not need a Passenger Warning placard or ELT.
 
David Paule said:
Mel, does a single-seat airplane need the passenger warning?

Dave
RV-3B now working on the cowling
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passenger
păs′ən-jər
noun
A person who travels in a conveyance, such as a car or train, without participating in its operation.
....................
From EAA.....

Passenger Warning Placard
The EXPERIMENTAL placard isn’t enough to warn pilots and passengers that they aren’t in a production airplane. The FAA also requires a passenger warning placard. Section 13 of AC 20-27D refers to the FAA inspection and subsequent issuance of the airworthiness certificate. It says, “The applicant should expect the FAA inspector or DAR to verify that all required markings are properly applied, including the following placard which must be displayed in the cabin or the cockpit at a location in full view of all passengers. (Placard not applicable to single-place aircraft.)

“Passenger Warning-This aircraft is amateur-built and does not comply with the federal safety regulations for standard aircraft”
 
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gasman said:
passenger
păs′ən-jər
noun
A person who travels in a conveyance, such as a car or train, without participating in its operation.
....................
From EAA.....Passenger Warning Placard
The EXPERIMENTAL placard isn’t enough to warn pilots and passengers that they aren’t in a production airplane. The FAA also requires a passenger warning placard. Section 13 of AC 20-27D refers to the FAA inspection and subsequent issuance of the airworthiness certificate. It says, “The applicant should expect the FAA inspector or DAR to verify that all required markings are properly applied, including the following placard which must be displayed in the cabin or the cockpit at a location in full view of all passengers. (Placard not applicable to single-place aircraft.)
“Passenger Warning-This aircraft is amateur-built and does not comply with the federal safety regulations for standard aircraft”
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The wording "is amateur-built and" was removed from this placard back in 2017 with the issuance of 8130.2j. If this wording is on the placard, it is still valid but not required.
 
gasman said:
A person who travels in a conveyance, such as a car or train, without participating in its operation.
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If you're new to flying RV's, there may be a time when you feel so far behind the airplane that "passenger" might make more sense...
 
The Pitts S1C biplane is a one-seat pilot-only aircraft. On a couple of occasions I found myself a passenger in a single-seat airplane.
 
Mel question - On a tandem, can the passenger warning placard be placed in the rear sear area since the passenger is in the rear? Or does the pilot have to have it in plain view too?
 
Just to be clear, since this thread has drifted to the passenger warning statement, the post that drifted the thread was not about the passenger warning statement. In post 4, Mel states the X in the N-number replaces the large EXPERIMENTAL placard not the passenger warning statement.

Based on some of the hassles listed in the first few post about having an NX n-number I don’t see how anyone would desire it. I really never like to do anything that would draw government scrutiny to my airplane. I had enough of that with obtaining and holding a 3rd class medical after my by-pass surgery prior to basic med introduction.
 
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Webb said:
Mel question - On a tandem, can the passenger warning placard be placed in the rear sear area since the passenger is in the rear? Or does the pilot have to have it in plain view too?
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FAA Order 8130.2j states that the passenger warning placard shall be placed in full view of all occupants.
 
plehrke said:
Based on some of the hassles listed in the first few post about having an NX n-number I don’t see how anyone would desire it. I really never like to do anything that would draw government scrutiny to my airplane. I had enough of that with obtaining and holding a 3rd class medical after my by-pass surgery prior to basic med introduction.
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Just for balance, I’ll mention that we have had an “NX” number on our -3 for eleven year and 800 hours, flown it all over the country, and exhibited it “show center” at Airventure, and have never had an issue or question, other than folks saying that they thought it was “cool”….. So experience varies - probably with the region/FSDO you are operating under.
 
Ironflight said:
Just for balance, I’ll mention that we have had an “NX” number on our -3 for eleven year and 800 hours, flown it all over the country, and exhibited it “show center” at Airventure, and have never had an issue or question, other than folks saying that they thought it was “cool”….. So experience varies - probably with the region/FSDO you are operating under.
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I am sure it is because you have a cool paint job and mine looks like I could never find the same color primer. :D
 
Referring to the ELT....

gasman said:
ELT not required in experimental A/C......

during phase 1.
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Ironflight said:
Have you got the reference for that one? I don’t think I’ve heard it before!
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Paul,

The reference is FAR 91.207(f), which starts out with "Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to -"


Scroll down to...

(4) Aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to design and testing;

This has been interpreted to mean that during phase 1 flight testing, the ELT is not required (since only required crew is onboard, just like a single-seat airplane).

Like the "NX" markings, this is a little known item in the regulations, so you may have to have a reference if you ever get checked by the Feds.
 
Very interesting Joe - I don’t think I’d ever scrolled that far down!

I’m guessing that was written long before the Additional Pilot Program came around, and they figured that airplanes were “effectively” single-seat in Phase I…..
 
One addendum; If you apply for airworthiness without an ELT, there is a good possibility the the inspector may sign the aircraft off for Phase I only and require another inspection WITH an ELT for Phase II.

And you will not be able to utilize the "Additional Pilot Program" without an ELT.
 
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Ironflight said:
Very interesting Joe - I don’t think I’d ever scrolled that far down!
I’m guessing that was written long before the Additional Pilot Program came around, and they figured that airplanes were “effectively” single-seat in Phase I…..
Click to expand...

That IS correct!
 
Mel said:
One addendum; If you apply for airworthiness without an ELT, there is a good possibility the the inspector may sign the aircraft off for Phase I only and require another inspection WITH an ELT for Phase II.

And you will not be able to utilize the "Additional Pilot Program" without an ELT.
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I gave up being a DAR 9-years ago when I retired from my full time job.

I had one guy that wanted to NOT have the ELT installed for test flying. I did not have an issue with doing that BUT he would need to PAY for an 2nd visit to get OpLims for Phase II.

This was all before the "Additional Pilot Program."
 
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