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Not Looking Forward To Wiring - Any Suggestions For Learning?

aparchment

Well Known Member
Wiring looms close on the horizon, and I have not been looking forward to this part of the project. Bob's book (Aeroelectric Connection) puts me to sleep every time I pick it up (sorry Bob). Does anyone have a better suggestion on how to get the requisite knowledge to do the wiring? Workshop? Video?

Thanks guys.
 
Work shop

I really enjoyed a couple of workshops and got some great tips and guidance on the simple things I did not know. I also used vans firewall forward kit that saved many hours of research and head scratching.

What part is worrying you the most? The avionics, engine, lights, or perhaps all of that.
 
The whole thing

Hi Lynn,

Really it all seems daunting. What wire to use, how best to ground, wire the avionics myself or buy a hub . . . The list is extensive. I was hoping to find a workshop nearby, but there don't appear to be any near metro Detroit.

I was hoping Stein would do a series of videos, but it looks like he and his guys have only had time for one on tools.
 
I am in the same boat, got my first set of tools and wire this week from Steinair. I changed my mind about 3 different times before I finally ordered the wiring for my wings but talking to other builders and Steinair and the aero electrical connection I finally made a decision. It all makes more sense with the pieces in hand!
 
Don't be intimidated by the wiring. There is lots of it, but the principles are pretty simple. The hardest part for me was making the various choices along the way. Try to look at as many RVs as you can, and talk to their builders to get a general idea.

It is actually a lot easier than many of the jobs that you must have already completed. And like the rest of the build, it's one step at a time.
Even if you don't read Bob's book cover to cover, I encourage you to use one of his circuit designs. You will end up with a more reliable electrical system than most spam cans.

The EFIS and engine monitor, intercom etc. involve lots of wire, but if you buy the wiring harnesses to go with them they are very manageable, and the pros harnesses are color coded and labelled.

Don't miss out on this part of the journey, it's great fun and will give you a lot of satisfaction at the end of the day.
 
I know what you mean about the Aeroelectric book! It's a real snoozer. I found that you need to pick and choose pertinent sections of the book and don't try to read it cover to cover. I found it useful for firewall forward and wig-wags. I also took his advice about using fuses instead of breakers.

I got a case of analysis paralysis when I tried to come up with a wiring diagram in advance. I just couldn't do it.

So, I decided to fall back on what has worked for me in the past. I just used my head and worked each wire and switch one at a time. I already had pre-made harnesses for my Dynon, radio, and transponder so those were easy.

I didn't let out any smoke and my installation is noise free so I'm happy with it. Things I did:

-Take all grounds back to the battery.

-As you add wires, set up specfic paths and stick with them. I pictured each main route as freeways. I have two main arteries running left and right under the panel. I have 4 arteries running from the panel back to the area under the seats. Only 2 freeways run down the center towards the baggage area and one one continues to the tail. One freeway to each wing, all hard wired. I don't plan on removing my wings.

-Label each end of each wire. I simply wrote what the wire was on a small slip of paper then slipped that under a piece of clear shrink sleeve and then shrunk it.

-I learned to solder well. This was the only useful thing that I got from the EAA electrical class I took. It was kind of a waste of money for me.

-Buy quality wire connectors. B and C is a good source.

-I didn't skimp on wire strippers (Ideal Stripmaster) or crimp tool.

-For each run, make sure to size the wires properly. Don't over complicate this. When in doubt, cheat to the next larger wire size. The weight difference is not going to be significant. We are not building 777s!

-I was a stickler for chafing protection. Airplanes rattle and move a lot. I used liberal amounts of Adel clamps, spiral wrap, silicone tape, zip ties, and mounts. I was very careful to keep wires away from moving parts such as the elevator tube running up the middle of the fuselage. I used the plastic stick-on mounts but I sanded and cleaned each mounting location. I didn't rely just on the adhesive backing on these because they will fail. After I stuck them I gooped up the perimeters with Amazing Goop. None of mine have failed and they have been on for a few years.

So, just take it one wire at a time and you'll get it. There is a lot of great info on this site.

Good luck.
 
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I second Bob's and Kelly's comments.

I can't stress the documentation highly enough. As much as you'll try to get it right the first time, there will be things you want to change. Just make sure that you take good notes while you're doing the wiring. Trust me, after awhile your memory will be mush and you won't be able to recall what that white wire was for.

label both ends of the wire, even if one end is just a temporary label that will be replaced later. This helps with attempting to have to remember everything.

Solder sleeves are your friend.

Do as much of the harness on the bench. It's much easier than inside the aircraft, especially if you need to get underneath the panel.

Remember that there is two ends to each wire. Electrons don't care which end of the wire they get attached. Sometimes folks get hung up, especially with runs to the back how to physically install something that looked so simple on the schematic.

Get peer reviews. You get as many opinions as ther are people here on VAF. Find one or two people you trust and bounce everything off them.

Like everything in the build, there is no silver bullet. Start one step at a time and you find yourself at the finish shortly.
 
I always thought AeroElectric would be a better book with a good editor to eliminate the side trips he can take when writing about a principle etc., but it is what it is.

I found Dick Kohler's SportAir workshop to be a nice start.

Also, the Vertical Power documentation -- even if you don't buy the product -- has a wealth of well-stated information.
 
Antony,

Nuttin' to it but to do it!!!

I am beginning to do mine now (as you know) and it is a bit intimidating. Especially when Billy and Rich have set the bar so high!

Take baby steps and if you have to redo stuff, redo it.

Just like the rest of the kit so far you start off small and build from there. Landing lights, ignition leads, rudder light, etc. then onto the panel!!!

Remember how the most intimidating part of the kit is the next part you haven't done? This is no different.

Once it is done you look into the rearview and say, "That wasn't too hard"!

Nuttin' to it but ta DO IT!!! Just DO IT!

;) CJ
 
There are a lot of great suggestions in this thread already Antony, but one thing I would add is that if you really don't know how to start, find another local builder with experience that can give you a hand - or that YOU can help do some wiring. Like most skills you learn while building an RV, it is just a little different, and once ou start, you find that it is actually fun.

You don't show on your profile where you are....but unless you're in Greenland, I bet there is another builder doing wiring within 100 miles of you. Consider it a one-on-one seminar.

Paul
 
Simple

Get the wiring plans from Vans. You can wire
according to these or use as a guide. Study them and
it will all come together. I used the Aero connection
book to educate myself on electric principle. Stein has all the tools
you need. The hardest wiring was the audio, yet very easy
when you follow the manuf. pin out diagrams and schematics.
In the end I was abel to route all wiring to disconnect and reconnect the entire panel/sub panel wiring as two separate bundles. It seems daunting in the begining but fairly easy in the end and also rewarding.. Call if you need help or any questions. 401-862-5577.
 
Try out our Avionics Seminar...

on Sept. 8. The seminar will be held at Wadsworth Skypark Airport, just 25 miles SSW of Cleveland, OH. You will receive a lot of information that will take you from the beginning of wiring and planning your panel, up thru installing antennas and upgrading avionics and beyond. The workbook that will be distributed to each person should serve as an excellent primer to everything electrical.

More info and registration is here: http://www.846.eaachapter.org/avionicsseminar.htm The vendors will also be offering door prizes valued at over $2500!

Antony, this will allow you to ask questions of the owners of the major avionics companies and also get answers to your basic questions. Let me know if you have any questions about the seminar. I hope to see you there!
 
Don't forget about the Hints for Homebuilders videos from EAA once you form a plan of attack. When I wasn't sure how to do something I would watch the video on that topic. There's wiring schematics at the back of the AeroConnection book - I used the Z-11 one to get me started and then bought the electrical plans from Vans to educate me on how Van's approached things. After I started wiring I decided to get one of Vertical Powers (VPX-Sport) electric hubs and had to redo things but the concept stayed the same. Just made it easier concerning the fuses/breakers plus the EFIS I have can display the electrical system.

Make sure you know what your mission is with the plane and that will help determine some of your electrical needs. Wire is cheap and its easier to make wire runs while the plane is still accessible. The vendors I have bought from have been great about helping me with questions and solutions. I only bought a pre-made intercom harness so far - the rest I have done on my own. Paul's suggestion on finding a person nearby is spot on. In my case there are three other RV-9A's under construction that I know about within 110 miles of me.
 
Heck, I've got an Electrical Engineering degree and the wiring was a bit intimidating for me to get started on. The planning took months (still a work in progress). I broke everything down into subsystems and would work one at a time. Identify all of your equipment, then start connecting them. I ended up creating a spreadsheet with every wire identified from source to destination. Well over 300 wires, and this is a simple VFR panel! I'm using the Vertical Power VP-X system, and their documentation has a lot of great information on general electrical concepts. I also am using multiple 9-pin Dsub hubs for the Dynon Skyview network interconnects, along with routing things like the shared signals for the Autopilot and stick grip controls.
 
. . . . Also, the Vertical Power documentation -- even if you don't buy the product -- has a wealth of well-stated information.

Thanks for the kind words, Bob (and later down thread, to Mike and Bruce, as well).

We agree that our manuals are somewhat useful for learning about your electrical system even if you don't use any of our products. We hear that a lot. We are working on improving that even more going forward.

Like Bruce, I have an Electrical Engineering degree, but had decided (even before I joined Vertical Power) to use these products to really simplify the build experience. The improved reliability and potentially lower cost and weight helped my decision too, but easier wiring was important to me since I noticed this is exactly the part of some projects where progress slows or even halts. For me, less complex wiring was a huge selling point.

Even without VP products though, don't feel daunted. Like everything else during your build, it's about education. You will learn a great deal, and initially hard things will become routine after practice.

Stephen
 
I bought most of my avionics from Steinair and had him make the harnesses for the EFIS, radio, transponder, and intercom. That made it much simpler and it wasn't that expensive.
 
It ain't so bad.

I was looking over the edge of that same cliff a couple of months ago. Now that it's done, it didn't seem so bad. Ask a few questions when you need to (lot's of help here) and as the very wise Paul Dye said to me 'each wire begins and ends somewhere'
 
If I had to do it again . . .

In another life I was an Avionics Engineer, designed cable harnesses, etc. If I had to do it again, I'd do 2 things that would dramatically reduce time and effort wiring my plane:
1) Purchase and Install a Vertical Power VP-X;
2) Purchase and install Approach Fast Stack "avionics hub" with point to point wiring harnesses supplied by Approach FS.

I was out in OSH this year with another builder (also an Electrical Engineer) and showed him the Fast Stack concept. Yes - it costs a few bucks, but it saves you tons of time and expensive building and troubleshooting wiring. Also deals with all of the EMI (grounding) terminations. These 2 items would save you 10s if not 100s of hours . . . just my opinion though;)
 
I bought most of my avionics from Steinair and had him make the harnesses for the EFIS, radio, transponder, and intercom. That made it much simpler and it wasn't that expensive.

I highly encourage this. Folks like Stein have been there and done that. You are still left with plenty of stuff to wire so don't worry, you won't be missing out on the experience.
 
Backing Up....

You know, reading back through the many good responses to this thread, I realized that none of us really went back to the original post and asked a simple question - what is it about wiring that is bothering Antony? think about it - "wiring" is a broad term that encompasses a variety of skills and knowledge, and different solutions are required for different issues. for instance:

1) Systems architecture - if you don't know how to design a system, you can buy a harness from Van's, buy a VP unit (with excellent documentation), or hit the books and find a drawing that works for you.

2) How to pull and secure wires - well it is hard to beat experience here. I understand someone who sees a finished aircraft with lots of bundles wondering how you get from a blank airframe to that finished state. yes, it is one wire at a time - but if you've never just dove in to it, the thought of where to start is intimidating. Where to put holes? How to protest hole edges? How often (and how) to protect and secure the bundles? You may not learn all this from a seminar - you need to look at other people's work.

3) Making terminations? Well, yes - it can require a variety of tools and practice - a seminar or apprenticeship is a good way to get these skills. The tools....wlell, there is always another tool to buy...

4) Fear of doing damage? Well heck, you've had the opportunity to drill figure-eight holes already - how bad can wiring be? Learning to power up a little at a time will reduce the risk of a "catastrophic smoke event".

Those are just examples - ever "problem" might have a different approach to an answer, and this thread has a great selection of good answers - I would suggest that future readers should start with a clear definition of their own particular sticking points to figure out how to attack them.

Paul
 
Design Services

Does anyone know of any individuals or business that offers design services for electrical systems? (similar to those offering similar services for avionics and panel designs). It sure would be nice to collaboratively work with an experienced person who could produce the wiring diagram. I would be interested if anyone knows of this.
 
One of the better sources for airplane wiring is the paper by Greg Richter, formerly of Blue Mountain Avionics, titled Aircraft Wiring for Smart People.

You can find a copy at:
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/0903_aircraft_wiring.pdf

Just make sure you take some of it with a grain of salt - while some of it is great info, other parts are pretty much personal opinion on Gregs part and don't necessarily follow best practices, industry standards or normal installations. There is some good info in there, but also some bad. I believe a number of people have gone through it point by point some time ago and noted the areas of issue.

Cheers,
Stein
 
Wiring 101 - What Worked for Me

I found the various chapters of the Aero Connection a good primer on electrical theory - but the various Z diagrams were invaluable for designing my electrical system. I must have gone over Z13/8 in detail a hundred times - can't emphasize enough how valuable the diagrams coupled with the various notes were.

Some ideas (not inclusive) that worked for me (or that I wish I had done):

1) Build a wish list of electrical stuff you may want in your airplane - then figure out (spec values or estimates) the continuous load for each. It's continuous load that matters.
3) Figure out what you want for Plan B (backup alternator, if any) and Plan C (battery only) ops. Keep in mind some avionics components have their own backup batteries.
2) Pick an architecture - I don't think you can beat Bob's Z diagram options - again, I believe Z13/8 (or whatever the follow-on is) is the best for most applications. Determine what components you want on each bus. Your endurance bus is meant to safely get you on the ground in the event of main alternator issues - not continue business as usual flight.
3) Determine normal continuous load (plus desired wiggle room) to size your alternator. Bigger is not necessarily better.
4) Wire sizing recommendations are included in the Z diagrams. Keep in mind, electrons don't mind bigger wires - but tend to make smaller wires hot.
5) Figure out how you want to do the fat wires - I used welding cable, had the crimps done by the local Napa Auto Parts store.
6) Spend a lot of time figuring out wiring runs and where you'll drill holes through the spar (carefully) and firewall. Keep in mind the old rule that two pieces of matter can't occupy the same space at the same time - particularly around firewall penetrations.
7) Determine where you'll selectively use local grounds (strobes, wing lights, heated pitot for me) or the firewall-mounted multi-ground tab device (I used B&C).
8) Determine how you want to mark the wires (printed heat shrink or tabs - and do both ends) - also whether you want to use colored wires (I used too many white wires and regret it).
9) Practice crimping - use the best stripper and crimp tools you can afford. Realize coax is different. I used D-sub connectors whereever possible, but there are orher options. Also, practice soldering. Doesn't have to be pretty - just functional.
10) Document - Document - Document
11) Don't view the task as finishing your electrical system; view it only as doing your next wire as well as you can. Do wire continuity checks all the time. I didn't and the one wire that had a crimpp gap - even though it passed the visual and pull test - drove me nuts in troubleshooting.
10) Cut the wires longer than needed and design in service loops.
11) Be flexible - you will make mistakes and have better ideas as you progress.
12) DOCUMENT AS YOU GO - and pay attention to configuration management.
13) It gets a lot harder the more you close up the wing and fuselage skins. Carefully consider how you'll handle wing wiring - not much room to work the wires in the wing root after wings are attached. Do you really need disconnects or can you just cut wires if the wings have to be removed? I used connectors - and wish I hadn't.
14) Get professional help to wire the panel. I had Stark Avionics wire my avionics. Stein is a star.
15) Determine how you will build and secure wire bundles. I used both lace and cable ties. Bob's files give good lacing instructions.
16) I used fuze blocks mounted in my -8A's fwd baggage compartment. Figured the probability of a replacement fixing a blown fuze problem in flight was remote. Instead built backups into the comm (SL-30 and ICOM 200) and Nav systems (GPS and VOR). If I could do it again, I'd mount the fuze blocks on a fold-down door aft on the aft baggage compartment bulkhead.
17) Terminal blocks help a lot.
18) Stein and B&C were my suppliers of choice. You really do get what you pay for - so don't skimp.
19) You will need more - a lot more - electrical hardware components than you think.
20) I submitted specific questions to Bob via email. He always replied. I also attended his seminar (Auburn, CA, but he does them at various locations).
21) EAA has a very good electrical instruction series in their builder's library.

I had no wiring experience but found the electrical stuff was one of the more enjoyable aspects of building. After a couple glitchs (the connectivity issue described above and an ignition system short caused by insulation rubbing a hot engine component) the system has worked perfectly.

I also accumulated a lot of electrical documentation. Email me if want additional info.
[email protected]
 
I'm confused as to what awg wire I should use for the vans 75watt 2 bulb per wingtip landing lights. I figured the total wire length from panel to wingtip roundtrip was 40 feet (wire runs from panel to firewall to floor back through the spar to wing root 10 feet +wing length 10 feet *2).

At .00253ohms per foot (14awg)* 40 = .1012ohms
75 watts / 12 volts = 6.25 amps
6.25 amps * .1012ohms = .6325 voltage drop

Conductor chart page 11-30 figure 11-2 from AC43.13b shows I should use 10 awg. If my total length was 35 foot instead of 40 I could use a 12 awg.

Wire Table, Figure 8-3 of the Aeroelectric Cpnnection shows 14 awg running 15 amps within the 35C temp rise.

Am I way overestimating the distance of my wing wiring runs?
Do I run 1 14 awg wire to power both landing/taxi per wingtip totaling 12.5 amps and take the 1.265 volts lost?
Do I run 1 14 awg per light it's .6325 volts lost?
Seems like overkill but would you run the 10 awg?

Thanks,
Andy
 
Am I way overestimating the distance of my wing wiring runs?
Quite possibly. About the only time I underestimated wiring run lengths and got caught short was whenever running the hideously expensive RG-400 coax :eek:

Do I run 1 14 awg wire to power both landing/taxi per wingtip totaling 12.5 amps and take the 1.265 volts lost?
Do I run 1 14 awg per light it's .6325 volts lost?
Seems like overkill but would you run the 10 awg?

Putting TWO 75watt amp-hungry, incandescent lamps into each wing (total of 4 lamps?) does seem to be a bit of an eyebrow-raiser in this day and age of LED and HID lamps, but if you're really intent to do that, I'd arrange for some kind of terminal strip or bus-bar arrangement mounted under the floor panels, about in the center of the aircraft for the ground and power distribution to those high-current lamps, and run heavy enough gauge wire from your power bus/circuit breakers/switches in your panel down to that terminal strip/busbar system in the floor, and then run lighter gauge wire from there out to the wingtips... just big enough gauge wire to be within specs for that particular distance and amperage draw. That way you won't have multiple very long "home runs" of heavy gauge wire strung all over the place. Also keep in mind the need to provide a ground path for the lamps too. I know a lot of folks just simply use the airframe as electrical ground, but I prefer to have ground wires for everything, run to ground bus bars strategically located (e.g. one under floor, one behind panel, one on the firewall under the engine cowl) and have them all linked together with sufficient gauge wire, and ultimately grounded to the airframe where the battery negative lead gets bolted to the firewall, which also is the same bolt that the engine ground braid/cable is grounded to as well. With such a grounding arrangement, I've never had any ground loop issues nor any problems with poor ground connections.
 
To the point as usual!

First though, thanks to everyone for their input.

Paul has cut to the quick of the issue. The part that's daunting is planning the wiring without any knowledge. What do I need to know, what are the worst mistakes that I can make that will damage my systems, what are best practices, which type/gauge wire to use, best termination practices, where to terminate, how to read schematics, etc.

I have the same concern now that I did when selecting a plane to build. Back then I didn't want to build a metal plane because I didn't have any metal working knowledge. I addressed this by taking a class from Tom Emery. I walked away with enough understanding of best practices and enough basic skills to keep me out of trouble and in fact get me off to a successful start. I need that here . . . without having to suffer through the theory or rambling prose of an electrical treatise. By the same token, I can't just pick up a recommended wiring schematic without knowing what makes it good for my application.

So on Paul's list it is mostly about 1, somewhat about 3 and 4 (in the sense of fearing the unintended release of smoke) and not at all about 2.

For those who care, this will be an IFR capable plane with a AFS 3500EE (probably upgraded to a 4500 before installation), backup Garmin 106A for additional CDI/glideslope, Garmin 240 audio panel, Garmin 430W or 650, Garmin GTX 330, TBD backup nav/comm, single battery, single alternator, circuit breakers . . .

Thanks again everyone. Please keep the advice coming. I am skimming Aircraft Wiring For Smart People now and keeping Stein's words in mind.



You know, reading back through the many good responses to this thread, I realized that none of us really went back to the original post and asked a simple question - what is it about wiring that is bothering Antony? think about it - "wiring" is a broad term that encompasses a variety of skills and knowledge, and different solutions are required for different issues. for instance:

1) Systems architecture - if you don't know how to design a system, you can buy a harness from Van's, buy a VP unit (with excellent documentation), or hit the books and find a drawing that works for you.

2) How to pull and secure wires - well it is hard to beat experience here. I understand someone who sees a finished aircraft with lots of bundles wondering how you get from a blank airframe to that finished state. yes, it is one wire at a time - but if you've never just dove in to it, the thought of where to start is intimidating. Where to put holes? How to protest hole edges? How often (and how) to protect and secure the bundles? You may not learn all this from a seminar - you need to look at other people's work.

3) Making terminations? Well, yes - it can require a variety of tools and practice - a seminar or apprenticeship is a good way to get these skills. The tools....wlell, there is always another tool to buy...

4) Fear of doing damage? Well heck, you've had the opportunity to drill figure-eight holes already - how bad can wiring be? Learning to power up a little at a time will reduce the risk of a "catastrophic smoke event".

Those are just examples - ever "problem" might have a different approach to an answer, and this thread has a great selection of good answers - I would suggest that future readers should start with a clear definition of their own particular sticking points to figure out how to attack them.

Paul
 
Just make sure you take some of it with a grain of salt - while some of it is great info, other parts are pretty much personal opinion on Gregs part and don't necessarily follow best practices, industry standards or normal installations. There is some good info in there, but also some bad. I believe a number of people have gone through it point by point some time ago and noted the areas of issue.

Cheers,
Stein

Agreed. A 24-volt system for an RV doesn't seem to buy you much. I don't think the radiation from a transponder antenna is a concern in an all-metal airplane. I do like his ideas on grounding and simplifying the wire and fuse/breaker sizes.

Which brings up a question. The standard electrical practice is to size fuses/breakers to protect the wire. However, some equipment makers prescribe a fuse/breaker size for their box that may be considerably smaller than the wire can handle. Is this to protect their equipment, or does it just based on the power demand of their box?

Thanks ... Joe
 
.....

Which brings up a question. The standard electrical practice is to size fuses/breakers to protect the wire. However, some equipment makers prescribe a fuse/breaker size for their box that may be considerably smaller than the wire can handle. Is this to protect their equipment, or does it just based on the power demand of their box?

Thanks ... Joe

Straight out of the "bible", AC 43.13

11-48. DETERMINATION OF CIRCUIT
BREAKER RATINGS.
Circuit protection
devices must be sized to supply open circuit
capability. A circuit breaker must be rated so
that it will open before the current rating of the
wire attached to it is exceeded, or before the
cumulative rating of all loads connected to it
are exceeded, whichever is lowest. A circuit
breaker must always open before any component
downstream can overheat and generate
smoke or fire. Wires must be sized to carry
continuous current in excess of the circuit
protective device rating, including its timecurrent
characteristics, and to avoid excessive
voltage drop. Refer to section 5 for wire rating
methods.
 
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