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New "old" project--How old?

KatieB

KatieB

Well Known Member
Patron
I spent 5 hours inventorying my new "old" kit today. It appears to be almost as old as I am! The brakes were wrapped in newspaper ("The Oregonian") from December, 1981. The fuselage formers appear to have been hand-made. The largest formers are two-piece (2 left and right halves per former) with a squiggly stiffening indentation running up each side. This appears to have been done by hand with an English wheel. All of the wing ribs are present and in good condition, in dense stacks. None of the pieces have any plastic covering or paper labels, but some of them do have part names hand written in blue Sharpie. I was thinking this must have been done by one of the previous kit owners, but some parts have "RV3" included in the label, which makes me wonder if they were written at Vans. The rivets and hardware are also in little brown paper bags labeled with blue sharpie. The canopy box has a return address which is hand-written from Van's Aircraft, Cornelius, OR.

I'm trying to upload photos to a Picasa web album to share with you but not having much luck. Anyhow, I'm wondering if 1981 is a good estimate of the wing and fuselage kits' age. No serial number can be found, but the people at Van's said it can be tough to trace a -3 kit because of the changes made to record keeping... (they didn't anticipate such a boom of success early on, apparently!) I have been a Vintage Aircraft Association member for many years now and have always had a soft spot for old airplanes, but I didn't think I'd ever get to build a vintage airplane from a kit! :D If anyone has some insight about the clues we've listed here, I'm interested to learn more.

Thanks!
 
Katie,

It sounds to me like you're doing about as much detective work as you can to find the actual vintage. I'd keep my eyes open for anything that looks like a kit serial number on spar parts - at least these days, they are marked well to make sure they stay together as a set.

I am curious - are you going to be building in the spar mods of the later models? I would think that if you're really starting from an unstarted kit, you'd want to do that - much easier than retrofitting it later!

Oh, one other cool thing about building a -3....I think that the original design is now old enough that you can legally put "NX" at the start of the registration number (might check that with Mel...).

Paul
 
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Spar mods

Yep, definitely planning to add the spar mods. I have "very old" plans and info on both mods coming from Vans sometime this week, so I'm looking forward to reading all of that.

So if I put NX on the registration, do you think they'd let me park it in the Vintage area at OSH?? :eek: LOL

KT

KatieSRV3BuildLog

KatieSRV3BuildLog
 
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Wing Mods, Etc.

Hi Katie,
You can find quite a bit of information about the RV-3 history,
and specifically the wing mods at Randy Lervolds old site:
http://www.romeolima.com/RV3hq/Info/info.html#WingSparBackground
He even has scanned versions of the original notices from Vans.

The fuselage bulkheads (except F-303) shown in your photos look
almost exactly like those provided by Van's today! (I ordered my
RV-3B fuse kit in early 2009).

I'm sure you know to look carefully at your parts for corrosion. You
will also probably want to buy fresh rivets to avoid the age-hardening
that may have occurred during the last 30 years.

Good luck and welcome to the very exclusive club of old-school RV
builders!

- Dan Benua
Repeat offender, EAA tech counselor
 
Thanks Dan!

I just looked again at Louise's "Junior" photo album and you're right, the new formers do look the same! I can see already that her album will be a HUGE help.

About the rivets-- replacing them is probably a good idea. Is there a way to test whether they are age-hardened? (besides looking at the calendar)
 
Yes!

Ironflight said:
Oh, one other cool thing about building a -3....I think that the original design is now old enough that you can legally put "NX" at the start of the registration number (might check that with Mel...).
Paul
Click to expand...

Actually even the RV-4 now qualifies, as the first one flew more than 30 years ago.

The "X" in the N number replaces the "experimental" placard.
ref; FAR part 45.22(b). The "X" will not show up in any paperwork. The numbers may be as small as 2".
 
Old Rivets

The only way I know to identify old rivets is to try
driving a few to compare the hardness vs newer ones.
If the shop head doesn't form easily, or if there is any
cracking visible, it is too old.

This procedure is complicated by the large number of
different sizes of rivets in the kit; which all come from
different batches and may have different aging characteristic.

As Mike noted, it won't cost much to just replace them all; just
the hassle of trying to figure out quantities for each size. As you
probably noted during the inventory, Van's does not give convenient
totals for each rivet size. They are scattered among various
sub-kits. One way is to consolidate them all by size, then weigh
the resulting piles.

One more tip about rivets... The rivet lengths shown on the plans
are just a suggestion and not to be taken too literally (this actually
applies to a lot of things on the plans!). Always use the rules about
minimum shop head dimensions to determine if the rivet length is correct.
(AC 43.13-1B Figure 4-6)

- Dan Benua
 
Hi Katie...

We're also building an RV-3(B), not quite in the approved sequence :eek: Feel free to eMail any questions, and/or see Build photos - am afraid it is a "record for interest" set of pictures, not an ideal reference resource for other builders ;)

Good luck

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
 
New Rivets

Thanks for the suggestions guys--I'll go through the rivets this week, weigh them out and order new ones when I order the spar beef-kit. One less thing to worry about.

What to do with a box of 30 year old rivets? Maybe someday I can make a giant rivet mural on one wall of the workshop... :p
 
KatieB said:
T

What to do with a box of 30 year old rivets? Maybe someday I can make a giant rivet mural on one wall of the workshop... :p
Click to expand...

Practice, practice, practice. Drive them, squeeze them, drill em out, learn, learn.
 
KatieB said:
I spent 5 hours inventorying my new "old" kit today. It appears to be almost as old as I am! The brakes were wrapped in newspaper ("The Oregonian") from December, 1981. The fuselage formers appear to have been hand-made. The largest formers are two-piece (2 left and right halves per former) with a squiggly stiffening indentation running up each side. This appears to have been done by hand with an English wheel.
Click to expand...

Hi Kate,
All of the ribs and bulkheads of your RV3 kit were cut out by hand. They were then press formed on form blocks. The form blocks have a relief cut into them and the aluminum material is pressed into the relief to form the stiffening bead. The bead looks the way it does because it was cut into the form blocks using a 2 axis milling machine with the cranks turned by hand. Think of it as being similar to trying to draw a smooth looking wavy line on an etch-a-sketch (hopefully you are not too young to not know what that is). I believe these beads were cut into the form blocks by Van when they were originally produced.
 
Since the rivets have...

KatieB said:
Thanks for the suggestions guys--I'll go through the rivets this week, weigh them out and order new ones when I order the spar beef-kit. One less thing to worry about.

What to do with a box of 30 year old rivets? Maybe someday I can make a giant rivet mural on one wall of the workshop... :p
Click to expand...

...a Mil-Spec, and the specification for our particular rivets does not have any lifetime limit - I say practice with a few and then use them.

The "aging" bit seems to be left over from a different type of rivets, commonly called "icebox" rivets....:)
In our case, 2117-T4 is stable...

http://www.av8design.com/Hardware/MS20426.pdf

If you hear this again, just ask for an actual technical reference....:rolleyes:
 
old stuff

I asked a friend who's an RV-6 builder and A&P today about the rivet age thing. He said he's heard people say they can age harden, but our rivets shouldn't have a shelf life. He suggested taking a hand squeezer and some scrap sheet and testing how much force it takes to squeeze them, since practice is good anyway. I'll squeeze some old ones and newer ones to compare, and look them all over. They are cheap, so if there's any question about them I'll order some new ones.

Of course I remember the Etch-A-Sketch, it was one of my favorite toys, along with Legos and all kinds of model airplanes. How appropriate... :D
 
Yep...

KatieB said:
.... He said he's heard people say they can age harden....
Click to expand...

...the only technical data so far...:D

Not only your A&P source, but many other similar sources...

Actually, 2117-T4 - the aluminum in our rivets - is age hardened at room temperature after heat treatment at around 900F.
If they aren't age hardened, they are not 2117-T4...:)
 
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"old" rivets?

az_gila said:
...a Mil-Spec, and the specification for our particular rivets does not have any lifetime limit - I say practice with a few and then use them.

The "aging" bit seems to be left over from a different type of rivets, commonly called "icebox" rivets....:)
In our case, 2117-T4 is stable...

http://www.av8design.com/Hardware/MS20426.pdf

If you hear this again, just ask for an actual technical reference....:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I've heard that by following the heat treat process for 2117 aluminum, both "old" and new rivets can be made softer for a short period of time.

Just make certain that the rivets are quenched in ice water immediately when removed from the oven.

2117 aluminum age hardens at room temperature in a few days.

It takes about half as much force to set one of these termerarily "soft" rivets.
 
Show Me The $

RVjim said:
I've heard that by following the heat treat process for 2117 aluminum...
Click to expand...

That would be cool-- Show me a technical reference in the form of an SAE, ASTM, or FAA document, preferably from this century.

See, I'm learning already, az_gila. ;)
 
Katie,

Congrats on your "new" RV-3 project! It is going to be fun watching you put this "antique" kit together and launching a wonderful new addition to the fleet.

Let me offer a warm invitation to you to visit/associate with the Tennessee Valley RV Builders Group any time you have an opportunity. We are quite the collection of misfits and scruffs including an astounding number of engineers, technical types and repeat offenders.

You will fit right in. :D

You can check our web site for meeting info:

http://www.tvrvbg.org

Best wishes for an exciting journey into custom aircraft fabrication!
 
KatieB said:
That would be cool-- Show me a technical reference in the form of an SAE, ASTM, or FAA document, preferably from this century.

See, I'm learning already, az_gila. ;)
Click to expand...

You are learning WELL Katie! There is so much stuff passed on as truth when in fact, it is hangar gossip. It is a very simple thing to ask "show me where that is written down!" whenever you get information new to you. If the person believes it to be true, he'll probably have a reference. If not....well, it is worth what you paid for it.

In my business, we have a saying "In God we Trust! All others must bring data!"

Paul
 
Leading edges of tail feathers...

Ironflight said:
In my business, we have a saying "In God we Trust! All others must bring data!"

Paul
Click to expand...

LOL! I love it.

Another question for people who know something about the early 3s. The kit I got came with the original tail surfaces already built. They are probably airworthy but rather ugly. The leading edge skins of the rudder and elevators were left open, with about the last 1/2" of the skin edges folded over toward the centerline at slightly less than a 90 degree angle. They are not rolled neatly to a rounded leading edge like all other RV's I've seen, and like the 2005 plans show. There is not enough material there to do a rolled edge. I think this looks really ugly, but I"m wondering if that was typical of the early -3s, or if the guy was just afraid of rolling the leading edges. I have twisted the broomhandle before on two other airplanes and I know the rolled LE is tough to do, so I can't blame him if he didn't want to do it. I'd post a picture but I left my camera at work. :( Also, the vertical and horizontal stabs are both countersunk, not dimpled, which is OK since it's .032, but different.

I do have a new tail kit in the box and planning to build my own, but it would be nice to know about the leading edges to feed my inner history nerd.
 
KatieB said:
LOL! I love it.

Another question for people who know something about the early 3s. The kit I got came with the original tail surfaces already built. They are probably airworthy but rather ugly. The leading edge skins of the rudder and elevators were left open, with about the last 1/2" of the skin edges folded over toward the centerline at slightly less than a 90 degree angle. They are not rolled neatly to a rounded leading edge like all other RV's I've seen, and like the 2005 plans show. There is not enough material there to do a rolled edge. I think this looks really ugly, but I"m wondering if that was typical of the early -3s, or if the guy was just afraid of rolling the leading edges. I have twisted the broomhandle before on two other airplanes and I know the rolled LE is tough to do, so I can't blame him if he didn't want to do it. I'd post a picture but I left my camera at work. :( Also, the vertical and horizontal stabs are both countersunk, not dimpled, which is OK since it's .032, but different.

I do have a new tail kit in the box and planning to build my own, but it would be nice to know about the leading edges to feed my inner history nerd.
Click to expand...

That is how the early RV-3 emps were. It is not really visible when mounted on the plane.
 
Rolled LE

rvbuilder2002 said:
That is how the early RV-3 emps were. It is not really visible when mounted on the plane.
Click to expand...

weird. Do you know what year Van published the rolled LE? If it's super-old and rare, it might be worth leaving it that way. (but it would have to be really unusual, because it's still ugly)
Thanks!
 
Fuselage tank

I did get one, and it looks to be in nice shape, but I'd like to build the wing tanks. More foot-room. Are you looking for a fuselage tank?
 
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