What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

New member questions

R

ryoder

I'm New Here
I am considering building a RV-12.
I am 90% done with my PPL and have been flying a 1976 C172M and have also flown a 2006 172SP G1000.

Let me know if my assumptions here are correct.
I like the RV-12 due to:
* ease of building with matched holes that I don't need to drill out. I can build it if I am patient and have a friend help out. I have done tile work, finish carpentry, auto repair etc.
* comprehensive documentation and videos on homebuilt help
* stability of my investment, it may not appreciate and I may not make money on it but I think I'll not lose money either
* aesthetics - I think it looks really good. The S-LSA pics, the blue one flying over the mountains, sold me and I really want to build one that looks that good.
* avionics - I'll do dual EFIS
* safety - help me out here but I think VANs are safe
* handling - docile and predictable, not an aerobatic airplane but that's not what I want. I want something I can do more training in and go on trips from Tampa to small fields in Georgia or across the state to Melbourne.
* performance/economy - typical LSA economy with a 5gph or less in low cruise running on pump gas with the Rotax 912


Questions:
* There is no quick build kit right? I don't see it so I assume its just the regular kit.
* Can I buy the kits one at a time and still meet the E-LSA requirements?
* If so, which kit should I start with? Empennage? Wing?
* Can I buy used or partially completed kits or do I need to buy the whole thing?
* Can I install a used or reman Rotax 912 and is this practical as a way to save money?
* Is the wiring difficult or is it a "plug and play" harness sort of like an automotive harness with push connectors and wires already bundled in looms?
* Should I paint/corrosion proof ALL aluminum or leave it bare? I ask because I am in FL and I know that Cessna started corrosion proofing all of their aluminum prior to assembly in 1997 and it was considered a big improvement.
* How do you paint it? Do I get an auto painter to come out and paint it in my hangar or is that when I get an A&P operation involved? Do I paint parts before bolting them together?


Thanks for any info. I realize I have tons of questions but if someone could answer even a single question that would be helpful. I didn't want to create 100 posts for these initial questions.
 
Quick short answers :

Questions:
* There is no quick build kit right? I don't see it so I assume its just the regular kit.

NO.

* Can I buy the kits one at a time and still meet the E-LSA requirements?

YES.

* If so, which kit should I start with? Empennage? Wing?

#1, then #2, etc.

* Can I buy used or partially completed kits or do I need to buy the whole thing?

Yes.

* Can I install a used or reman Rotax 912 and is this practical as a way to save money?

NO, if building E-LSA. Must buy all from Van's.

* Is the wiring difficult or is it a "plug and play" harness sort of like an automotive harness with push connectors and wires already bundled in looms?

P & P mostly.

* Should I paint/corrosion proof ALL aluminum or leave it bare? I ask because I am in FL and I know that Cessna started corrosion proofing all of their aluminum prior to assembly in 1997 and it was considered a big improvement.

Hard to answer. Where will it be stored etc.

* How do you paint it? Do I get an auto painter to come out and paint it in my hangar or is that when I get an A&P operation involved? Do I paint parts before bolting them together?

Your choice. Can be painted in pieces. ( like wings, fuse, etc. ). Depends upon who you know.
 
I think you have the`likes' pretty much right, but here are a few comments for what they are worth. Matched hole construction applies to most of the other RV's too, however, you won't need your friend to help with the riveting too often as the pulled rivets make it mostly a one-person operation.

You may come close to getting your money back, but it's probably wrong to use the words `investment' and `aircraft' in the same sentence. The real payoff comes in the experience of building your own aircraft, not so much in whether you will get your money back.

Why dual efis? Certainly some builders have done that, but one Skyview seems to be enough for most.

All the RV's look good IMO, and they are at least as safe as any other reputable type. I'm a low time Cessna pilot and although there were many reasons why I chose a -12, one was that from a safety point of view, I was a little concerned about keeping up with a much faster aircraft like an RV-7, although I know this is something that would come fairly quickly with a bit of practice and training.

There is currently no quick-build kit for the -12 (maybe in the future?). However, the 12 builds quickly so that shouldn't be a major consideration.

You need to buy all kits from Vans (or at least from someone who originally bought them from Vans) to build an E-LSA RV12, either at the same time or over an extended period as you complete the various kits (as most seem to do).

I'd recommend starting with the empenage followed by the wing and fuselage kits.

You can install a used Rotax, but then you will need to build EAB. It's unlikely that you would save a lot of money, because there is a lot more in the firewall forward kit than just the engine. The additional aggravation would probably not be worth any saving you might make.

The avionics are basically plug and play - one of the nice features of this aircraft.

To prime or not is a never ending debate on this forum. If you're in FL, it's probably a good idea.

Some people do their own painting, most seem to have it done professionally, either by a recognised aircraft shop or a good car painter. Apart from the internal painting of the cockpit area, the external stuff can be left until last, although some builders have parts painted as they are finished.

All of the above are just my thoughts. Others will have different views of course, although I think all would agree that based on your priorities, you won't go wrong with a -12.
 
Last edited:
Welcome aboard Ryan, you have come to the right place with your questions. You have answers from two well respected builders, I can think of nothing to add to their good advice..
 
The rv-12 kit is easy (relatively speaking) to build and fast to build. I started out thinking I'd document the build with a web site but I honestly think that would double my time. So much can be accomplished in such little time that its hard to keep up with the web. I gave that idea up shortly after starting. However, having said that I'd like to give out a super big thanks to those that do!

You don't need to order more than one kit at a time, but I've found that having multiple kits to work one can speed the process. If I need to reorder a part because I've proven that the kits aren't idiot proof, then I can work somewhere else until it comes in.

You could go in almost any order of the big 3 (emp/tailcone, wings & fuse) but most go emp/tailcone first. It teaches you the basic skills you need for everything else (although there is more learning along the way). If you need to reorder a part (and you will) because you're learning, they tend to be a little cheaper to replace and easier to handle. Also something else to consider when you decide on the order of the kits, is that when you're done you need to be able to store that kit while you work on something else. Going in the normal order of emp/tailcone, wings, fuse, finish, avionics and engine allow the easiest method of storing and building. My emp is being stored in my ex-home office (many things are stored in there now). My tailcone is hanging from the ceiling of the garage, the wings are in a wing stand in the great room and I'm working on the fuse now in the garage and the finish kit is waiting in there as well.

In all honesty, I haven't built much (other than computers, networks, databases, etc.) in my life. My wife Jan and I took an intro class from George and Becky Orendorff when they were in the Ft Worth area (we lived in a small north Dallas suburb called Plano at the time). There we learned about the tools, techniques and processes. At least we learned enough so that we were able to work up the courage to drill our first hole. At the time we had started on an RV-9.

The Homebuilt help video's have been a large help most of the time. It's nice to see what you are going out to work on and one good approach to doing it. They also help to answer remaining questions you may have about a step. The video's were created early enough in the process that things have changed, so the video doesn't always line up with the plans. They also have someone playing the radio in the background and it gets annoying, sometimes covering up what's being said. All in all, however, I really recommend them to anyone starting up. As a matter of fact, pick up the emp/tailcone DVD and check it out. We rarely start building without watching the appropriate part of the video first. I've even broken my video's down by page number (corresponding to the plans) so I can go directly to what it is I'm working on or may be questioning.

You can also get an idea of the quality of the plans by looking at the revisions on Van's website. You'll see how well done they are. Step by step, picture by picture they really lead you by the hand through the process. It's difficult to imagine how much time & frustration that really good documentation can save you until you've done something else!

I received my first kit (emp/tailcone) in December of 2012. I waited until April of 2013 before I went ahead and started. I wanted to primer and the winds and the cold of winter and spring didn't allow for that until mid-May. I got some primer in but gave up. I wanted to build! so I really started building in Aril of 2013. Most of the emp was primered through the summer months. Basically if a part isn't covered in blue plastic it needs primer. I try to at least go there. There were sometimes when I needed a break and took a week off, or I was waiting on a part so there were some downtimes. But buy the end of December 2013 I was done with the emp/tailcone, wings and starting on the fuse.

I plan on dual Skyviews. My wife, told me that she wants in front of her what I have in front of me. I suspect in the long run that means with dual screens I'll have in front of me what she has in front of her...

I should also mention that we are a team building a plane. My wife Jan, my father-in-law Bill and me. One person will tend to see something different that another may miss and it works out well. We all have different skills and life experiences that come into play. The plus side is that its a fun project for us and will lead to great memories for many years.

Something to consider if you think about selling down the road. To use an analogy, its always easier to get your money out of a basic house that looks nice than it is a home with everything upgraded and maxed out. It's sort of the same way with planes. Think of the extras as stuff for you, that you want to make your experience more enjoyable, without the worry of getting something back out of it (in terms of dollars). Having said that, I'm getting all the extras/options and in the end maybe a bit more (dual screens).

Good luck and welcome to the group!

Bob
 
Last edited:
A couple additional thoughts...

First, let me add to the welcomes. As to the RV, you have chosen wisely, Grasshopper. I hope that your experience in building the -12 will be at least as rewarding as mine is being to me.

Four items: 1) EAA; 2) E-LSA; 3) Shipping; 4) VAF archives

1) If you haven't already, join the EAA and also sign on with your local chapter. Get well acquainted with all the RVers in Central FL. They have much valuable info they would love to share. Find a Tech Counselor who is fully up on RVs, and even better, one who is knowledgeable with E-LSAa and the -12. You will not have enough time to make all your own mistakes - they can steer you in the right direction. If you still have access to that C172, you may even want to go visiting at further distances from home. Check out whether an EAA workshop will be held near you, like at Sun N Fun for instance. The "Building an RV" course is very worthwhile even though it's geared to the solid rivet crowd. It gets you started working with aluminum monocoque construction.

2) Decide early on if you want to build E-LSA or EAB. You mentioned dual EFISes?that option was thoroughly explored by Van's for nearly a year before they dropped it, so that means putting in a second EFIS would make your plane EAB. More on that ref in 4) below. One of the best bits of advice I received, very early in my project, was to document the build as I would for EAB, even though I still intend to go E-LSA. You never know what sort of magical goodies are going to hit the market before you're flying, and just in case you can't do without out one of them, one which would make your plane EAB, you will have that option open to you. I got that from my TC.

3) Since you're so far from Oregon, you may want to consider ordering your kit in its entirety, right up front. The savings on shipping charges would be significant. The down side is having a lot of crates to store until you're ready to open each one. Talk to other RV builders in your area to get additional input.

4) Getting on VAF is one of the best moves to make. I strongly encourage you to get very familiar with the archive search function. You will find a mother lode of discussion (the good, the bad, and the other) about any subject you may be wrestling with, such as priming and/or running a second EFIS. Just remember to keep the filter active. Merely because somebody says so doesn't make it universally true. You are the one to decide what is valid for you and your project, and arriving at those conclusions will likely require considerable research. It's all good, though, so don't be hesitant.

I wish you all the best success with your RV-12. If you haven't flown one yet, you have a real treat in store. Fair winds and blue skies.
 
1. Build ELSA. MANY benefits to that!!! It will be easy to add a second EFIS if you want after you are flying. I wanted dual but having flown with a single Skyview for a year it is Ok that way. IPAD with FOREFLIGHT might be just the right thing for an interested passenger to play with.
2. Empennage first. You will be surprised how fast the emp is all finished.
3. Order the wings and fuse together for that same reason. You dont want to finish something then have to wait 6 weks for the next kit. If you are CERTAIN, you could order emp, wings, and fuse together. If you are not certain, the emp has less risk.
4. Learn to use SEARCH on the forum. Every possible newbie question has been asked and answered! Search ahead before you do something - like search for the word "longeron."
5. Your best effort at this point is to read other peoples build logs. I HIGHLY recommend schmetterlingaviation.com as both thorough and entertaining. Also Marty Santics blog and Tony Tessitore's picture set. Workmanship at its finest. Read them in order. I read Dave's and Marty's on a business trip and placed my order when I got home - i was convinced it was do-able and that every small issue or question had an answer. (First time builder.)
6. For one story of painting in parts, see this: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=67760

Welcome!
 
As Bill mentioned - once you get your pink slip then you can do the dual screen mod, also the AOA and the stab tips, and.... :)

Bob
 
Bill believes there are many benefits to building ELSA, that may be so but there are actually some BENEFITS to NOT building ELSA, it is a choice only you can make. There are thousands of Vans RV planes out there, only a few hundred of them are ELSA, the rest are all EAB.
Vans tends to encourage ELSA building, that way THEY get to sell you every last thing for the kit at their price. You mentioned a used engine, no no with ELSA, perfectly acceptable with EAB. Same with other items obtained at a better cost perhaps on the used market. Vans does price things fairly I believe though if you are going only for new items.
ELSA is an easier path to follow, since all the decisions are made for you, just fork over the bucks and go. When you are done, your name does NOT go on the ID plate as builder, only Vans name goes there as builder. Some have built EAB for various reasons, alternate engines, simpler panel, different systems, etc.
There are those that maintain the ELSA will bring more on the used market if you decide to sell. My response to that is that if you are building to sell, you are probably misguided, and should build it for you to FLY!
 
Thanks guys for the answers.

I am a huge forum user on other sites and have responded at least 1 million times with "use the search" but its helpful and encouraging to get actual answers to my specific questions at this specific time as things can and do change.

There is a lot of good info here and I will digest it and supplement it with some targeted searches.

I am not quite ready to pull the trigger but I am honing in on this airplane as the one to build if I do build.

There is a local EAA chapter at KCLW and I need to get over there one of these days. They have some dinner on the first Tuesday of every month I think so that may be tomorrow night.
 
Welcome to the form. Considered taking a SportAir workshop on sheet metal when it comes to Florida. Here is the web site http://www.sportair.com/index.html
Building an airplane is a true adventure. It takes a large commitment and a long time to do. You need to have everything in your life stable, if married have the wife on board, etc. Yes you can order multiple subs kits and save on shipping. I wouldn't recommend this for the first time builder. I suggest just ordering the tail section first. That way if for some reason you never get it done then you will only be out the cost of that kit only. Used sub kits usually go for 30% less than full retail. Unless you are an experienced builder I don't recommend buying used sub kits either. Newer sub kits have newer updated parts and plans. Consider going to Sun & Fun in April. Priming the inside of your plane increases your build time and has been debated here endlessly, it's up to you. Most guys fly their planes for a year before painting because you are going to take that engine cowl off a lot tweaking the motor as well as tweaking the airframe. Nothing like scratching that new paint job with your screw driver if you know what I mean.:mad: Most guys take their planes to a professional paint shop when the time comes. This is the final step at the end of a long journey and you want it to be perfect. Painting a plane by yourself is a labor intensive event but again if you have Experience painting then go for it. Good luck with your new adventure.:D
 
Hello Ryan,

Welcome to the world of RVs! Should you choose to join us, you'll be in for the ride of a lifetime. I can't offer any more sage advice beyond what the guys before me have given. Just wanted to let you know that if you decide to take the plunge, I have in my hanger in Maryland, a brand new, unopened RV-12 empicone kit. It was delivered last week to a contract builder (allowed under the E-LSA provisions). However, the owner has decided to go S-LSA RV-12 instead of having one built. Shipping from Maryland will most likely be less than from Oregon.

If you're interested, just email me at [email protected] and we'll get it on the way.

Best of luck to you!
 
Bill_H said:
I HIGHLY recommend schmetterlingaviation.com as both thorough and entertaining
Click to expand...
Thanks Bill! I would just add that I captured the entire blog into three fairly large PDF files that you can download and read offline. The downloads also offer the benefit of going in chronological order rather than the reverse order when reading online.

They are free to download from:

Volume 1: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B4DKCfPk8DZwZDJhNTAzMjgtYTBiMy00MWFkLTk5YjMtMzBmMDIzNDUxOTJj&hl=en

Volume 2: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4DKCfPk8DZwWFNjWEx5VEFTdjQ/edit?usp=sharing

Volume 3: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4DKCfPk8DZwTG9sVjJKamg0em8/edit?usp=sharing
 
@RYODER

Just started my 12 build a few days ago. My train of thought was similar to yours, except for the investment part. Toys never hold their value. Although I think the 12 will hold better than some others, you really are paying for the experience.

Just started my build blog today. You are welcome to check it out at RV12Build.blogspot.com

Enjoy the ride!
Gary
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top