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My tools.. comments required

M

Mohammed

Active Member
Patron
Hi

I have been doing some research and comparison for tools kits for my RV8 project and decided that rather than buying everything at once I'll just buy what will get me through the empennage kit and buy anything else later or as I progress. So this is what I have chosen to go for:

1) Cleaveland 'Get me started kit
2) Replace the hand squeezer with the pnumatic one
3) Replace the c-frame with DRDT2 front face kit (I'll construct the frame locally to save on shipping)
4) Replace the1" flush set with the swivel one
5) I'll remove all the items that I can buy locally specially if they are heavy to save on shipping (ie snipes, 3M wheels)
6) I'll add the following items:
6.1) drill stops (do I need them)
6.2) rivet gauge
6.3) 1/8 and 3/32 drive pin punch (do I need them?)
6.4) scotchbrite pads

What do you think of this? Am I missing something?
Is the number of clecos enough for the emp?
Do I need cleco clamps or will regular workshop clamps do?

Mohammed
 
Mohammed, a couple of things:

1) Drill stops -- bought 'em, never used 'em. Well, I did use them at first, but soon discovered that it was a bigger pain having to move them to new drill bits as they wore out and I couldn't find the hex wrench ... I just did without and never missed them. Never drilled into my finger, either. ;)

2) I think you'll find that there are times when a hand squeezer will come in handy (no pun intended), so I'm not sure that I'd eliminate it. And, while I'm a big fan of my pneumatic squeezer and would recommend every builder invest in one, it's really not a must-have for the empennage, IMO.

3) Pin punches come in really handy in lining up holes prior to inserting rivets in some places. Maybe the newer kits line up so well that they're not needed, but I know that I had mine out regularly when assembling parts to rivet.

4) Yes, clecos are necessary. In fact, I don't remember if any side-grip clecos are really needed for the empennage, but you'll need them during the rest of the build, so it might not be a bad idea to buy a few of them.

5) Extra #40 and #30 drill bits. You'll waste a lot of time forcing dull drill bits if you don't.

6) I'm not sure what's in the "Get Me Started Kit", but I'm guessing Band-aids aren't in there. Always good to keep a box handy. :D

Good luck and welcome to the club!
 
I'd keep the hand squeezer. Sometimes it's nice to be able to go very slowly.

Cleco clamps -- I've already used them a lot and don't want to miss them.

Scotch brite pads -- I bought them locally.
 
I bought the drill stops, have never used them.
I upgraded to the pneumatic squeezer and don't have a hand squeezer. So far has worked great. Finished the wings now I have not "Needed" a hand squeezer, although a few times it would have been nice to have.

I use the punch pins for alignment and removing rivets. I would put in the must have list.

I made it through the tail with just the clecos in the kit, but more are better. Have ended up purchasing more while working the wings.
 
The punches are also needed when you drill out rivets (and you will drill out rivets). Get one of the small tungsten bucking bars (I think mine is 3/4" x 2" x 3") as it will be invaluable in the tight spaces in the empennage. Also, get a no-hole yoke for your squeezer(s) to get the tight spaces at the rear of the elevator and rudder ribs. No matter what tools you buy, inevitably you will reach a point in the construction where you need to wait for a tool you didn't know you needed to arrive, so don't sweat it too much. Even now I'm still getting new sets and bucking bars for riveting on the -10.

Edit: After looking over the Cleaveland kits, I recommend you pass up the starter kit and go with the "RV Builder's Kit". Amongst other things, what good is a back-riveting plate if the kit does not also include the set? However, there are some things I'd leave out. Get the riveting tape and dispenser at your local office supply (you want low-tack scotch tape). Keep the mushroom set - you may find it gives you better results. If you can, get a separate microstop cage for each countersink; it's less of a pain to switch cages than it is to swap cutters in a cage and reset for depth. Oh, and the best present I ever got was a complete number sized drill bit set, with the metal box that has the flip out holders for the bits. You get pretty good at telling #40 and #30 bits but the other sizes can be hard to tell and read off the shank.
 
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Good comments so far. The back rivet set DOES come in the get me started kit, but shipping with you is going to be the most controllable cost in getting the tools and it is much cheaper to ship all at once than multiple boxes so keep that in mind. If you go with the 'starter kit' I recommend doubling the clekos, you can get by with the minimum, but you will need them eventually.

For the punches the 3/32" and 1/8" are mainly for removing rivets as mentioned. There is also a tapered punch that works well for alignment of prepunched parts so you are not using the cleko to force alignment.

flion mentioned a thin nose yoke for the squeezer. Since you are building an -8 you will want the 4" thin nose yoke. They are a bit heavier, but on the -8 there is a whole row of rivets that you can set with a 4" that you can't set with the 3", so if you already have the 4" thin nose, you save a yoke.

I can't stress enough REAMERS FOR PREPUNCHED HOLES #40 and #30. You will only have to buy one set (unless you drop the drill) and they are the right tool to enlarge matched hole prepunched holes. Rounder holes, less deburring, and they don't wear like drill bits that chatter.

When building the DRDT I suggest using 1/4" wall thickness for the frame if weight and expense are not an issue. This will greatly reduce the flexing of the frame.

-
 
Drop the drill stops altogether. If you find you need to drill someplace and want a drill stop, just set the depth and wrap the bit in a masking tape ring.

Knowing you're trying to do this on a tight budget Mo, stick with the "Getting started" tool kit and other upgrades. Just make a list of the tools that are in the bigger tool kits and not included in the basic one. That way down the line when you get to the wings and fuselage you can just submit one big order for the remaining tools.

Just my 2 cents worth..
 
Thank you guys for the feedaback so far..

@Mike it is true about saving if ordering the whole lot at once and that was the plan initially but I changed my mind when l saw the totals and thought I would rather save $1000+ now to buy tools I need right now like an air compressor. I got couple of questions for you Mike.

- Can I substitute the 3" by the 4" thin
- Can I substitute the drill bits by the dreamers or are the specific purpose kind of tools
- Do you offer the DRDT face kit or I can only order it from EA?
 
@Mohammed

Replying here for the benefit of others and future searchers.

You will need drill bits as well as reamers since not all holes are match hole punched. Even on a tight budget I would recommend the reamers.

Choosing between the two yokes you should choose the 3" standard. Most of what you use a 'squeezer' for is squeezing dimples, over half of the dimples in the plane you will be doing with the squeezer. You do use it for riveting as well, but would not want only the 4" thin nose yoke as you would not be able to use it with dimple dies. All of the rivets that I mentioned could be done with a mushroom set and bucking bar. Also for the trailing edge rivets you can use... (hold your breath everyone... ) pop rivets. This will keep you from buying a thin nose yoke. The MK319 rivets that come with the kit are direct replacements for the 426-3 rivets used in these areas, most builders just prefer not to use them. (still cringing at the backlash from this statement).

We don't stock the DRDT front end kit, but can source if from EA and include it in your box to save shipping (you can send us other stuff to consolidate too). All of our kits are really just starting points and customizable to fit your needs. Unless noise is a factor you should really consider a standard c-frame tool.

Looking through the starter kit again (and for the benefit of others again) I notice the double offset 1/8" cupped rivet set. I don't recall ever using that in an empennage kit of any model. Other readers, could you chime in with your experience here. The first time that I recall that that tool is used is riveting the ribs on to the wing spar??

Finally I really don't like the drill that is in the kit. We put it in there because the the kit was designed for builders who want to spend as little as possible, but I would rather use an electric drill than that one. Either spend $150 for the Nova or $0 and use a battery operated drill.

Thanks for the discussion, I think it will help many beginners who are in your same position.

P.S. This was a fun excercise in hyperlinks, anyone that think I overdid it let me know!http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/contactus.asp

--
 
Risking a thread drift..

@ Mike and Mo, (and all the tool store operators)
My comment to Mo yesterday about making a list of tools that are not included in the starter tool kit but are needed to complete the regular tool kits got me thinking. So I did a little research.
I checked several stores online catalogs. (Avery, Browntool, USTool, Isham, and Cleaveland to be specific) While all had what generally could be called beginner (Getting started) tool kits and of course the deluxe kits, not one of them have what I would call a "Next Step" kit. A step between the Beginners kits and the Deluxe kits that budget builders like Mo here can order down the line and not have to worry about ordering duplicate tools. Just wondering if it can be done or has been done and I haven't found it..
 
@Bill

That is one of the reasons that we created this Excel sheet. It is the 'Complete Kit' in Excel format so that you can customize or check off items as you acquire them. Often new builders are overwhelmed anyway and don't know where to start. Once people figure out this is not magic they start forming their own opinions about what they 'need' or meet other builders and get to see other tools in action. We give the customer the same 'kit discount' if they buy the 'upgrade' of the tools. This builder customization is the reason that we always list individual prices in the breakouts of the kits. This way you know exactly what you are paying for and how much each item is. Saying we will throw in a Cadillac for free is just marketing, nothing is free. Next 5 people to order our $60k tool kit gets a free SUV! Or order our 10,000 piece tool kit (comes with 9800 rivets). We just show you the item lists based on our experience.
-
 
Everytime I think: I have every tool ever made, I spend another $500! :rolleyes:
Weather in Texas is finally good again, Ready to hit the shop!!
 
BTW, I did use the drill stops all the time. They keep the drill from being pulled into the work and damaging it.

Get the Avery rivet squeezer as it can use the same yokes as your pneumatic squeezer. In fact, I would recommend you get the hand squeezer first and then the pneumatic squeezer if you need it. I built my entire plane with just the hand squeezer.
 
Thank you very much Mike for the valuable feedaack
I have couple of questions before I submit the order:

1) Do the dimple dies (DIE4263, DIE4264) and squeezer set (SSF1, SSF8, SSF2 & SSC4S) work with the pneumatic squeezer from Avery and their quick adust?
2) Do the air regulator (ARF1) and the swivel (ASRD14) do the same job? Are they used only w/rivet guns not with sqzr or drill?
 
Seems that Mike is not around.. can any of te more experianced builders help me out with those questions?
 
Sorry for the delayed reply, I was working on a Veteran's day project that took all of my spare time.

The dies and sets are an industry standard 3/16" shank. There is some old WWII surplus stuff that takes a 1/4" shank floating around, but any modern tools are interchangeable.

The air regulator is generally only used on the rivet gun. It is actually an air flow restrictor keeping the gun running at a steady speed regardless of length of hose. I recommend the AFR1 as it is a needle valve and is much more controllable (user rotates several revolutions from full on to full off). The swivel type is also a flow restrictor but is 1/4 turn from full on to full off. With this type you must adjust the valve while the gun is running so you can hear the speed change.

To get immediate answers it is best to email me mike.toolman (at) gmail.com
 
Mohammed,

I think you are going to need a hand squeezer of some type. Some old timers around here may be good enough with a pneumatic squeezer to do all of the jobs well, but as a beginner I doubt you will be. I like the control of the hand squeezer. I have the Cleaveland hand squeezer, a Tatco hand squeezer, and a pneumatic squeezer. I use them all.

One other thing that I really like is the quick change chuck from Cleaveland. Its very fast to change bits. I didn't buy the full set to keep the cost down. I bought the adapter for #30, #40, and the drill chuck adapter for every thing else. I'll probabaly buy some more adapters over time since I just end up bitching when I have to use my old chuck on the adapter.
 
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