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My panel layout

Paul:

Your panel looks very clean and neat, like a certified, production airplane. I like the layout a lot.

I've got one one comment about switches. I don't know about you, but I find that switches are easier to find when they are set apart in groups of no more than five, instead on one long string. Human-factors engineers have done studies, and they've found that the human brain works best with smaller groups of objects. Even a half-inch between adjacent switches is enough to set the groups apart. If a long string is absolutely necessary, it's a good design practice to color-code the levers with rubber boots, which would also serve to visually "group" them.

Some people tend to group switches based on function, i.e., lights (position, strobes, landing lights, etc.) grouped together. That's good, but I also try to group switches based on Mode of Flight when possible. For instance, before every takeoff, you turn on the strobes and the boost pump -- and after you clear the runway on landing, you turn them off. So you could group those two switches together.

You can also group things based on how much you use them. "Emergency" or seldom-used switches (Essential Bus Standby Power, Passenger stick-function disable, etc.) can be put out of the way, and/or guarded.

In the military, we used to do "blindfold cockpit checks," to see how quickly and how easily we could locate certain controls and switches, without looking. With a row of a dozen identical toggle switches in front of me, I'd be hard-pressed to remember which was the Pitot heat, which was the Aux Battery and which was the Fuel Pump, just by feel or memory.

Just some things to think about.

Keep pounding those rivets! See you at a fly-in someday! :)
 
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Buck,

Good ideas. I'm planning on using the colored boots on the switches. Red for engine stuff, green for lights etc... The exact order is still in flux, but I'll have enough holes when I get it laser cut.
 
nits

I like it because it's very clean and because it's ergonomic. Nice job! My nits are:

1. Is the ignition switch going to dangle the keys were a foot or knee will hit it while getting in or out?
2. You have a lot of switches all in a row. Will you be able to easily read the labels under any circumstances or, alternatively, will you be able to memorize their positions for the braille method? I see while I was writing this BuckWynd did this part even better than I did. Mine is 5 over 5 - see site.
3. I put my Auto Pilot where the passenger could reach it and control it as one more way of ensuring survival of a non-pilot passenger. Just a thought.
4. I don't know if you have WX on the EFIS, but consider going with the 496 over the 296 or 396. Same mount, same power & data cord.
5. Are those fuses or breakers on the right? Have you considered SCB's?
6. Why do you need a clock? Is it for the timer for approaches? EFIS should read out time, at least.
 
Thanks for the input. The A/P will be controllable from the Pax side via the EFIS and the switched will be color coded. I might sneak in a little space between a few groups. I'll check on the key dangle. As far as the clock goes, I like to have a clock for approaches that is right there, no multiple button pushes. All good feedback.
 
I like the panel. It is real similar to what I have in mind. I am just now starting my layout. I need to sit down and figure out the switch/breaker/fuse thing.

Sounds like you are instrument rated. A suggestion: for the price of a SL30 and a Garmin 396, you can have a Garmin 430 and have an approach certified radio. Then, add the 396 with weather later.

I have never used a 430 or a trutrak autopilot. But. . . . I have been playing with the 430 simulator and a set of local approach plates. IT IS THE WAY TO GO OF THE FUTURE.
 
Hi,

It's still a few thousand more *and* Stein won't let me have as nice of a panel as he has..... something about I can't be better looking *and* have as nice of a panel as he does..... I'd consider the 430 though...
 
key vs switches

MNRVFlyer said:
I'll check on the key dangle.


I don't have a key in my panel just for that reason. I have never liked key switches in airplanes. I only have toggle switches for everthing and a "hidden" (but easy to reach) disconnect. Think about it, I like it.
Click to expand...
 
Nice Paul. I couldn't agree more with the guy's that said to seperate and group the switches.

I put mine in an "L" shape, starting to the left of where your clock is, going down, then going across the bottom to the right. Basically, they are grouped as "power" below that and right "engine" gap "lights" gap flaps. It's the normal sequence at start up.

Don't have a picture of mine yet, should have in a month or so.

One thing I would do (I did) is surround the "glass" with steams as a normal 6-pac. Put the ASI where you have the clock, put the ALT where you have the ASI, put the clock wherever.. (I had a hard time reading the labels on the photo but I think I had them correctly).

Larry
 
Yes, but..

lrfrey said:
...
One thing I would do (I did) is surround the "glass" with steams as a normal 6-pac. Put the ASI where you have the clock, put the ALT where you have the ASI, put the clock wherever..
Larry
Click to expand...
My dad used to call me "yeahbut" and here I go again. Yes, I think, ideally, it is best to have the backup steam guage where you expect the data to be on the EFIS. But, with any luck at all, you will never have to use it. And after a few hours behind this panel, you'll know where the information is just from having watched it. So, if it is easy, do it, but in your case it looks to me like a major change would be needed. I am considering a Dynon for flight display backup (with battery) instead of steam gauges. The format would be almost the same and all in one place.
 
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No Mapbox?

I will open myself to ridicule, but I think that a panel without a map box is not complete. It is the easiest way to manage cockpit clutter. All of Vans planes have one even the RV-8. Sorry, but it is my personal pet peeve. I just had to comment on an otherwise good looking panel.

Bruce Reynolds
RV-6A
 
Nice. Having the critical dead-EFIS instruments bunched together is a good idea. Otherwise, I'd put the ASI where the clock is because it's right under your sight line when making those last two slow speed turns in a (left) pattern. There's absolutely nothing easier to interpret with a fast glance than that 'ol steam gauge; then the ADI under it and the ALT where the ASI was. (It's also where other pilots expect them to be.) To each his own.

Look out for EFISs and audio panel interfering with ribs. (That little dot in the middle of the audio panel is a screw!)

More to it than the panel, though. Consider putting the throttle where Van's says to place the carb heat and shuffle the other controls to port along with it. If you need carb heat, put it under and between the throttle and prop (or mixture) on its own little bracket to give your pax more squirming room. In cruise, mixture sticks out a long ways. This also places the throttle right under the flap switch so you can tickle both without letting go the throttle.

Consider using progressive on switches (B&C sells) for space saving. Combine master/alt, land/taxi, aux pump/primer (you got?) and so on. You will appreciate the extra spacing for finger room and larger nomenclature.
Enough room around those dimmer knobs?

Have fun wiring.

John Siebold
Boise, ID
 
Bruce Reynolds said:
I will open myself to ridicule, but I think that a panel without a map box is not complete. It is the easiest way to manage cockpit clutter. All of Vans planes have one even the RV-8. Sorry, but it is my personal pet peeve. I just had to comment on an otherwise good looking panel.

Bruce Reynolds
RV-6A
Click to expand...

No ridicule at all but..............you can (I did) put lots of pockets in the interior sides, arrange it and see it all at a glance. No door to open. Panel space is expensive, (can be) make the most of it. :)
 
Too many switches

Paul,
I wouldn't say you designing sucks. It looks very good to me.

But, the comments regarding your line of switches are valid.
You may be inclined to stick with what you have because it does look neat, but you may come to regret it when you are flying it.

Ergonomics is the key word.
*As suggested the switches are ergonomically better if grouped.
*Another way is to use different shaped switches for tactile feel. My Laser Ignition for example was a guarded switch.
*A number of switches can be elimniated by using three position switches such as;
Master/ Alternator- OFF/Master/Master & Alt.
Nav/Strobe- OFF/Nav/Nav & Strobe.
*Any switches that are rarely used in flight can be placed away from the 'operational' switches. see pic.


Pete.

rightpanelvf7.jpg
 
Nice

Don't let Stein bully you. I don't want to have to come up there :eek:

I like it. I can't read the switches so I don't know what they are for. Seems like a lot of switches for an all elec panel. Separate them if you can for all the reason the others have mentioned.

Just a couple of observations. I'd dump the clock and put in a CDI. Both 3500's have clocks. So does the 396/496. No need for a 4th.

I'd also give serious consideration to putting in a 430. Then you will have an IFR machine. Also since you have a 330 transponder you will have traffic displayed on the 430. I have the same set up and love it. I also added a 496 on an "L" bracket off to the right. I would not be without the 496.

I noticed you have potentially two SL30/40's but no CDI. If you do the 430 you can dump one of the comm's/nav/comm's to help fund the 496.

If you don't do the 430 the 496 will be great. The 496 will drive the auto pilot, provide traffic, weather and instant comm selection. The screen might get a little cluttered though. When flying in a crowded environment the screen on the 430 gets tight with traffic. I don't know if I'd want everything on one screen.

Other than that it looks fantastic. I'm jealous of the AF3500's. If doing again, I'd have those for sure.
 
Bruce Reynolds said:
I will open myself to ridicule, but I think that a panel without a map box is not complete. It is the easiest way to manage cockpit clutter. All of Vans planes have one even the RV-8. Sorry, but it is my personal pet peeve. I just had to comment on an otherwise good looking panel.

Bruce Reynolds
RV-6A
Click to expand...
Having flown lots of IFR and cross country, in my opinion the easiest way to manage cockpit clutter is a center console/armrest with separate compartments for charts, plates and manuals. The map box may allow room for storage but not organized storage.
 
AltonD said:
Sounds like you are instrument rated. A suggestion: for the price of a SL30 and a Garmin 396, you can have a Garmin 430 and have an approach certified radio. Then, add the 396 with weather later.

I have never used a 430 or a trutrak autopilot. But. . . . I have been playing with the 430 simulator and a set of local approach plates. IT IS THE WAY TO GO OF THE FUTURE.
Click to expand...
I'd agree with this--for the price of those dual SL-30s, you could buy a GNS-430w and an ICOM IC-A210 or SL-40. You'd loose 1 VHF nav but you would gain IFR WAAS GPS. Tie the GNS-430 to the portable 396/496 with XM weather. Also agree with the above on grouping the switches. My panel is also similar to yours. On mine, my switches flow from left to right from startup.
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/91Panel/index.html
 
Thanks

Guys,

Thanks for all of the advice. It's all being taken under consideration. A couple of points...

I want a clock that I can use without any EFIS fiddling
I don't think I'll use a CDI as both EFIS's have them...
We don't like map boxes at Stein Air and I have inherited that prejudice
I'll definitely do some switch grouping along with colored boots
I'm considering a 430, but it still more $ even without a SL30 & 496
I really like having a battery powered GPS
I didn't miss the round gauges in my RV-6A panel redo...

Keep 'em coming!

Thanks!!
 
A couple more...

Keep the flap and aux fuel pump switch close to the throttle knob as you will be using them together while landing. Mine are such that I don't need to take my hand off the throttle knob to operate either of these.

As others have said Group the switches. Loose a lot of those circuit breakers. Instead use fuses. I don't like the map box either.

Is it a tipup or slider?

Keep in mind that there is a structure behind the panel that needs some consideration. I take it that you will not be using the canopy ejection system if it is a tipup, but there are other structures to watch out for. Also check the height of the top instruments for clearance.

I build my panel for full blown IFR (SL30, 430, 2 EFIS, back up round gages). Now after flying for one year and think about it, I don't think that I will really be doing much IFR in my plane (my wife won't go if there are clouds to close). :eek:

If I were doing if over I think that I would not have put some much in my panel. Maybe just one EFIS, and SL40 and a 496. I still would have put in some round gauges (alt, asi, T&B).

Kent
 
Hi Paul. You seem to be getting some good advice on your panel.

I'm not an expert on panel design, but I've found a couple of things annoying about what I originally ended up with. It relates to formation flying.

The most significant is that I had to move my passenger PTT switch to just above the throttle so he can fly formation and transmit without removing his hand from the throttle. An alternative would be to attach it to the right stick and rig up a disconnect for when the stick is removed.

Same comment for elecric trim control and flaps. The Pax need to be able to operate them without removing his hand from the throttle or stick.

So, if you plan on flying formation and give instruction or get instruction with the right seat occupied, please consider these issues.

V
 
I don't have a good understanding of how much you can control the autopilot via the EFIS yet. I'm assuming changing modes would require that you have to touch the A/P. With both the A/P and your clock/timer on the left can you comfortably reach across with your right hand to adjust both of them or would you need to switch hands that are on the stick so you can use your left hand to change the A/P or timer?

For those with flying panels is this something to worry about?
 
Hi,

With 429 in the AFS-3500 I won't do much fiddling with the A/P. I spoke with Rob a AF and he has 429 working in a test setup and should be available soon.
 
Hey Paul, here's your panel using the Vertical Power VP-200. Nothing like a little photoshop to make a Friday night interesting... ;)

pp.jpg
 
Paul-

It looks like you have a slider panel. (?) As someone above mentioned, you will have to do major surgery to your outboard panel ribs to place the EFIS's that high up on your panel. Big deal? Maybe not, I don't know, but you might consult with Van's first.

Re: ergonomic suggestions and placement of controls and switches--take a look at recent model production aircraft. They (one would presume) have spent a lot of time and money on ergonomics and human factors and probably have better panel layouts than most of us (me definitely included) could come up with intuitively on our own.

One example of this for me is placing my flap switch just to the right of the mixture control rather than right above the carb heat and throttle where I had it and the boost pump originally. I do still have the boost pump up in that position but decided to move my flaps switch to the right of the power controls (a la Cessna) because it is a very intuitive placement that does not force your hands to leave the power controls in a meaningful way.

Panel planning is a lot of fun. Good luck.
 
MNRVFlyer said:
Hi,

It's still a few thousand more *and* Stein won't let me have as nice of a panel as he has..... something about I can't be better looking *and* have as nice of a panel as he does..... I'd consider the 430 though...
Click to expand...
Hi Paul,

Hmmmm, sounds like you may need to take your panel project to the "dark side of Skunkworks" and only display it after its complete. Nothing like a little friendly competition...
 
MCA said:
Hey Paul, here's your panel using the Vertical Power VP-200. Nothing like a little photoshop to make a Friday night interesting... ;)

pp.jpg
Click to expand...
Boy you gotta love people that are in sales.... I have been gulity of this many times... ;-) Sounds like a great idea though. Cleaner panel. I will have to add it to my list for consideration.
 
I know it is kind of old timey but it is nice to have a cigarette lighter type plug to have as an aux power port. It might be the cheapest thing on the dash. Another thing to consider would be to move the cbs to a sub panel below the dash in such a way that they are not really in sight but mounted vertically so you could run your hand along them to feel if one popped out. I have flown planes with this setup and it worked fine. I agree with moving the sirspeed to the left where the clock is but do not give up the clock. You might need it so the paxs have to keep asking what time it is.
 
Two.

You need at least two in my experience.
One to charge your phone and one in the back to run the Electric Beer refrigerator.

Pete.
 
Panel Layout

Hi Paul,

I like your panel a lot and was working on a very similar version for mine except with Grand Rapids EFIS. Your panel seems set for IFR with the Dual Nav Coms, is that your plan and can you share your thoughts on going with the AF3500. Paul. I'm also curious if you found a 2 1/4" sensitive altimeter for backup that does not cost a fortune. Any thoughts you can share on you panel would be appreciated, since I.m sure in you work life you have seen many options. Thx
C-J
 
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