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More Rv-12 questions

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cardinal285

Member
Greetings all, I am a first timer ready to select a homebuilt kit,but like many of you I am struggling to select one best for me.My short list is the RV-12, Rans S-19 & and Zenith Ch750. I am aware that no one plane is perfect in all aspects, but looking to find one that does most things I am seeking, both in performance and the building process. Performance wise I feel the 12 is great.(I fly mostly local & some X-C) My concerns with building are based on what I have read here in the forums. Perhaps some of you can weigh in with your own thoughts and experiences.
1.Forming the longerons seems to be a challenge. I question why Vans (the best kit supplier) has builders beat these parts into shape and submission with a sledge hammer? I would think they could be provided bent,shaped and drilled in the kit.
2.Final fitting and glassing the canopy also appears to be time consuming and difficult. Knowing that the kit is all CNC punched for accuracy I would think all the planes dimensions would be close enough to have these parts prefabbed and provided. (Perhaps refering to concern #1 answers this) A slider like the Rans S19 appears superior to the foward flip up.
3. Constructing an item as critical as a fuel tank by riveting it together and then trying to seal it with some substance that I can not find anyones postive experience with.
4. Rotax motor seems to have lost some support by builders switching.
I live in Southern Calif. and would welcome the chance to see your project or finished plane. The other recent thread of questions was very helpful. Thanks in advance to those of you that can help me decide.
Gary
 
I'm only part way through the build so others will be able to answer more fully, but:

Longerons - I just finished those recently, with the help of a die manufactured by another RV builder on the forum. It wasn't as difficult as I was expecting, and there was no sledgehammer involved. Just a vice, two wrenches, the die to help get the curve right and some elbow grease to make it all happen.

Canopy - not there yet and glassing is not something I'm looking forward to

Tank - You can buy a pre-built one from Vans now

Rotax - Good to see others trying different engines, but I'll be using that expensive Rotax. It has a good reputation generally, there are plenty of them around (and Jabiru too) so I figure a potential buyer here in Australia is more likely to feel comfortable with a known brand, than an engine that few people in this country would know anything about. So will I for that matter!
 
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You also can buy a performed and complete canopy.

Usually, anything you dread turns ot to be a non issue. Don't listen to the negative posts, people can say what every they want on the internet with zero facts or experience to back it up.

Why go with a yet unproven engine? That makes no sense to me what so ever.
 
. . . "Why go with a yet unproven engine? That makes no sense to me what so ever."

Answer: $$

Let us not forget ... at some point, the Rotax 912 was also an "unproven engine."
 
Why a RV-12?

Go find one. Oshkosh if you have to. They are a great airplane. I just finished the test flying on mine this AM. No squawks at all. Flies just great will carry the same load as my RV9-A. I have not installed the wheel pants yet but flat out at 3000 feet 1320 pounds 80 degrees the indicated air speed is 128. Corrected it is 132. This is MPH. With wheel pants which I have but not put on I figure it should pick up 3-5 knots.
The Rotax engine? It is expensive but it fits, it works, it has a good reputation, The price is firewall foward by the time you purchase all the parts for another brand engine the price gap will be less.
Thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

RV9-A flying RV12 flying love them both. I guess i'm a Vanfan.
 
Which Plane to build!

Gary,
I recommend you take some time and visit each manufacture head quarters and tour the factory and fly each demo plane. This will help you alot on your quest to choose the best plane for you. Spending a couple of thousand to fly to these locations is not a lot when considering you are going to drop $65,000 in your project. Also consider taking a EAA Sport work shop when it comes to your area taking the sheet metal course. It will show what aircraft building is all about, best $300 I ever spent. Answers to Question 1,2,3. You are about to build an experimental airplane. It is what it is, Your job it to build it like the directions say. Yours is not to reason why but to build it like it says. Like you said nothing is perfect but this one is close. If there are certain parts you don't like then subcontract them out to contract builders on the form. Join an EAA chapter in your area they contain a wealth of knowledge. You build it in 5 subsections starting with the tail kit. This one is the easiest to build. You will become a better builder with each sub kit. However if you don't enjoy this first build then you are out just a few thousand dollars and you sell what you can on the form and walk away. It's not easy and requires a large commitment and organizational skills. But when you are done you will have completed and unbelievable journey of self discovery that only a builder knows. If money is not a problem then the RV12 Kit is the Cadillac to build compared to all the other different manufactures. I just flew mine 762nm from Texas to OSH in 6.5 hours and burned 35 gals of gas with an average GS of 120kts on mostly Premium Unleaded fuel. If you drove a car that distance it would take alot longer and may use even more fuel. Not bad for this E-LSA which doesn't require a medical to fly and you can do all your own maintenance if you so Chose. Good Luck!;)
 
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I fretted for many hours over the longerons, the canopy, the cowlings, and the fuel tank. They have all turned out to be non-issues. I wrote about the longerons (search for THWACK) after they turned out to be fairly easy. The most cussing I've done has been about those fraking cushion clamps - particularly the doubled ones used when you start installing the engine wiring and heater cable... But in the big scheme of things that is a pretty darn minor issue. (The bauxite miners are laughing uncontrollably...) Building this thing has been HUGE FUN - I am at 760 hours now and should finish it up at about 850. You can see my progress here (including painting - there is also a detailed painting post on the forum) http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.151245628228677.26907.100000297210697&l=a2b29e894a&type=1
 
light Sport

Yep, I like the RV-12 design too, But Van's choose only one engine the Rotax
which nobody can build or work on. Choose an american engine that you can
build or buy like an O-200 or O-235/O-320. The Zenith 750 will support an
O-320... I think Van's Rv-12 should support an O-200 continental that is an
American design and can be rebuild also....Zenith designers have also supported both the rotex and Continental & Lycoming engines. Dang Van's
dudes got into light sport late and decided to hitch up with only one engine...
the double dang rotex....
 
cardinal285 said:
My short list is the RV-12, Rans S-19 & and Zenith Ch750.

1.Forming the longerons seems to be a challenge. I question why Vans (the best kit supplier) has builders beat these parts into shape and submission with a sledge hammer? I would think they could be provided bent,shaped and drilled in the kit.
2.Final fitting and glassing the canopy also appears to be time consuming and difficult. Knowing that the kit is all CNC punched for accuracy I would think all the planes dimensions would be close enough to have these parts prefabbed and provided. (Perhaps refering to concern #1 answers this) A slider like the Rans S19 appears superior to the foward flip up.
3. Constructing an item as critical as a fuel tank by riveting it together and then trying to seal it with some substance that I can not find anyones postive experience with.
4. Rotax motor seems to have lost some support by builders switching.
I live in Southern Calif. and would welcome the chance to see your project or finished plane. The other recent thread of questions was very helpful. Thanks in advance to those of you that can help me decide.
Gary
Click to expand...

The 750 doesn't really belong into this list, does it? Unless you're not sure of the kind of flying you want to do with your finished plane. The Zodiac CH-650 is more like it.
Anyway, if you're concerned about tricky steps in the build process than the RV-12 is the one to go with. The reason you know about the longerons (no prob with the dies and done in an hour using them), the canopy (messy but doable) and the tank (Very messy but I had no issues so far) is that the mass of builders have documented their problems and so you also get a solution or at least some pat on the shoulder.
I also considered the S-19, there are hardly any finished by builders yet, at least compared to the fleet of RV-12s. The Zodiac's? Well, it's the same intense building process as the S-19 but just walk up to one, the 750 and 650 have in general the same wing construction, put your index finger under the out most rib, look down the top surface of the wing and slightly push up. You'll immediately see bulging between the wide rib distances. 'nuf said.
You also seem to feel limited that Van's chose only one engine for the RV-12 whereas RANS and Zenith let you decide which one to use. Well, that is comparing apples to oranges. RANS and Zenith let you decide because they are not providing ELSA kits but offer their kits for E/AB registration. You have the same option with the RV-12 if you really want to change what Van's had laid out in the ELSA kit. Then you can chose any engine and do anything you want to before registration.
But Van's is the only one offering the option to go ELSA with its kit, which has some benefits down the road but then you have to go with the choices the manufacturer made for you.
Just look at the build times for the different planes, I mean the real build times that builders reported and see what types of builders that are that finish the planes. With the RV-12 you'll find a large number of first time builders still doing a good job of finishing within 700-1000 hours. I haven't seen that with other manufacturers.
 
Regarding #3, about the fuel tank....

A friend has a certified airplane and obtained approval to close up the inboard wing section and seal it so that it had more fuel capacity (yes, the existing tanks were removed). I helped him do it. The aluminum structure was already riveted together (it was over 40 years old at the time) so we couldn't get any sealant between the parts, just over the rib flanges and joints and rivets.

There were some leaks he had to fix, of course - but the airplane has been flying, leak-free now, for about 20 years.

The sealant works.

Dave
 
hi to all.
I have decided to build "12" because of the folowing reasons:
1. Easily removeable wings
2. best documentation of the plans for build
3. Very good customer support or residence outside USA as i am
4. professionally overhauled Rotax engine with all paperwork cost in Poland about 12000 $ (nearly the same as in all Europe)
5. For me RV12 is most beatiful sport plane for home build i have ever seen ;)

Now my tailcone is allmost finished, i am waiting for the wing kit :)

regards
 
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Gary:

I'm in somewhat the same circumstances. To add a wee bit of financial reality to your thinking, I'm estimating a newly built -12 will cost its owner about $80K, perhaps $82K. Not exactly the number you see mentioned...but that's probably a fair estimate.

How did I get to that cost from Vans almost $65K?
-- $3K for tools, by the time everything is built. That sum comes from PMs from other builders, forum posts here, and the reality most builders don't end up selling most of their tools
-- state tax, assessed usually at the time one seeks a Registration Number. My figure presumes Florida's 6% + $50 cost, based on Vans kit pricing.
-- paint job, for which I allowed a $10K cost (could be more, probably not much less)
-- there was a nice estimate provided here recently about the likely net add'l cost of the 12's "v. 2.0" panel with one 10" Skyview; it was estimated to be $2k

This doesn't include govt. & inspection fees, nor does it include any additional electronic doodads & pilot accessories which I'm sure are going to be unavoidable purchases once one has such a nice a/c to fly. It doesn't include options not included in Vans basic pricing sheet (most of which, if not all, I would opt for).

Taking that cost figure and comparing it to some of the almost new, low-time RV models we see for sale, here and elsewhere, it's a good thing that so many builders feel the experience is so positive.

Good luck on your decision. I've yet to correspond with an RV-12 builder (and several have been very helpful to me in sorting out the wheat from the chaff) that didn't feel good about the kit (despite the niggles you mentioned, each of which has been a bugaboo to some builders), and the -12 flies wonderfully (thanks again, Mitch Locke). One final data point: There have been almost as many RV-12 kits begun during the full 3-year period its been available as ALL S-LSA aircraft sold in the USA by all S-LSA manufacturers, foreign and domestic. Obviously, Vans has a gem on their hands...

Jack
 
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I was a first time builder. I have a lot of wood working experience, but no sheet metal unless you count making a dustpan in junior high, 40 years ago. The longerons were a bit of work. My first one was probably ok from a safety standpoint, but not up to my personal standards. The second was much better.I ordered 2 pieces of new angle (the shipping cost was the same). The 3rd one was made using an arbor press and it was a breeze. It was much better than the second, so I used the other piece and made another. It was of course the best of all. That is the problem of building just one airplane. There always is a learning curve, and by the time you figure out how to do something, you are already on a new phase.

The canopy was no big deal. I had no prior experience with glass. I dreaded it, but had no problems. Just go slow an follow the directions.

The fuel tank is more a pain than a real challenge. Proseal is messy, and the MEK to clean things up is toxic. I spent over $100 in materials. Knowing what I know now, I would have had The tank built for $200 and used the time on other areas.

In short, there is nothing on the 12 that is really difficult. I enjoyed the build process, and spent about 900 hours on mine. It flies nice, and is cheap to opperate. I spent about $1000 on tools and around $800 on shipping. Re-do's added a couple of hundred. I had the money, and feel I got my monies worth. I considered the Rans and the Zodiac, but am glad I went with the 12. I flew a factory build Zodiac, but felt the control harmony was sub par. The s-19 is a good looking bird, but the Vans build support and this forum were the deciding factors for me.
 
Really good comments and feedback Mark, thanks.

I intend to build the RV-12.
As it stands right now, it will be an E-LSA, but I want to see how the first two builds go with the Viking engine. Both LSA and E-AB have their advantages, depending on individual preferences. To say the least, the Viking is interesting. I hope the engine works out for the RV-12. Even the well proven Rotax 912 still has some kinks to work out, with the RV-12 installation. I am not compleley convinced Rotax is the way to go FOR ME. If I choose E-LSA, there is no other option though.

This forum is a wealth of information. I have not even started my project yet and I already feel I have learned a lot from everybody. That is a testament to the benefit of this forum.

I'm not in big rush though. I will take the project "one day at a time," after I retire from flying, at the end of this year.

Thanks again.

Drifty
 
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