I fly out of TTD at the base of the Columbia river gorge. winds can easily blow straight down the runway at 24-30mph, gusts to 36 in the winter. takeoffs and landings are not that bad in an RV, just an elevator ride, but I always wonder about the taxiing to the runway. what should I consider a no-go wind speed? I have a -6A. sometimes I have had to make a 270? turn to build up momentum in order to swing the tail into the wind as I taxi downwind. I haven't felt any tendency to lift a wing while taxiing cross-wind, but thought I'd ask about others' experiences. I taxi with the stick firmly held in neutral position.
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max cross wind speeds for taxiing ?
- Thread starter kjlpdx
- Start date
longranger
Well Known Member
You'll be able to taxi in a stronger crosswind with the stick into the wind than you will with the stick neutral. The limiting factor will probably be when you run out of sufficient brake to steer the airplane straight, and my guess it will be more wind than you should be flying in anyway.
AlexPeterson
Well Known Member
Taxiing the 6A in crosswinds is tricky if brakes are needed. You don't want to ride a brake, as it might overheat and do bad things. Too little power and your rudder won't be as effective, but enough power to get rudder authority and you may go faster than is safe. I've found a sideways "porpoising" method to sometimes work: quick jabs of the brake to arc one downwind repeatedly. I've taxied short distances with 25k direct crosswinds - not fun and you need to keep your legs very rigid against the rudder pedals.
I don't know if the larger rudder offsets the larger VS on the newer "-A" models, making crosswind taxiing easier or not.
I don't know if the larger rudder offsets the larger VS on the newer "-A" models, making crosswind taxiing easier or not.
LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
Me too. The one time I'm conflicted, however is the "dive forward," which runs counter to taking weight off the nosewheel when taxiing.
AlexPeterson
Well Known Member
If I'm taxiing with a tail wind, and it takes stick force to hold up elevator, then that's what I'll do in that case. Stick force to hold up elevator = less load on the nose wheel. If the tailwind is strong enough, such that up elevator holds itself, then I'll hold down elevator. I do whatever reduces nose wheel load.
BTW, it takes a pretty good tailwind to transition from needing up to needing down as described above. Just guessing, but somewhere in the 10 to 15k range? Depends also on taxi speed. Will try to note next time.
Why not use the standard inputs when taxiing in wind that every PPL student learns? Some aircraft are more critical with this than others. It's good to learn good habits.
alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
Edit: I mistyped the original post below. The phrase that works is--For tailwheel aircraft: "Climb into, dive away." For nosewheel aircraft it is "fly into, dive away" meaning neutral elevator in a headwind. This is taken from the FAA "Airplane Flying Handbook" pg. 2-10:
The presence of moderate to strong headwinds and/or
a strong propeller slipstream makes the use of the
elevator necessary to maintain control of the pitch
attitude while taxiing. This becomes apparent when
considering the lifting action that may be created on
the horizontal tail surfaces by either of those two
factors. The elevator control in nosewheel-type
airplanes should be held in the neutral position, while
in tailwheel-type airplanes it should be held in the aft
position to hold the tail down.
Sorry for the mistake. Disregard my comments below.
The presence of moderate to strong headwinds and/or
a strong propeller slipstream makes the use of the
elevator necessary to maintain control of the pitch
attitude while taxiing. This becomes apparent when
considering the lifting action that may be created on
the horizontal tail surfaces by either of those two
factors. The elevator control in nosewheel-type
airplanes should be held in the neutral position, while
in tailwheel-type airplanes it should be held in the aft
position to hold the tail down.
Sorry for the mistake. Disregard my comments below.
For nosewheel planes you should not "climb into, dive away." That's for tailwheel aircraft. For nosewheel aircraft it is "climb into, fly away." The difference between "dive away" and "fly away" is that for tailwheels the the stick should be forward (dive) when taxiing with a tailwind, and for nosewheels the elevator should be neutral (fly) when taxiing with a tailwind. [For both you use the same aileron inputs.]
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
I'll be darned. Never flew a tail dragger and all my instructors -- including my RV transition training, taught dive away.
Here's the typical stuff I've been taught and have seen in almost every article on the subject.
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alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
Edit: I mistyped my original post above The phrase that works is--For tailwheel aircraft: "Climb into, dive away." For nosewheel aircraft it is "fly into, dive away" meaning neutral elevator in a headwind. This is taken from the FAA "Airplane Flying Handbook" pg. 2-10:
The presence of moderate to strong headwinds and/or
a strong propeller slipstream makes the use of the
elevator necessary to maintain control of the pitch
attitude while taxiing. This becomes apparent when
considering the lifting action that may be created on
the horizontal tail surfaces by either of those two
factors. The elevator control in nosewheel-type
airplanes should be held in the neutral position, while
in tailwheel-type airplanes it should be held in the aft
position to hold the tail down.
Sorry for the mistake.
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alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
Sorry for the confusion above, Bob. It is a bit counterintuitive to push forward if you are trying to protect the nosewheel. However, what you are actually doing by "diving away" (stick forward) with a significant tailwind is taking some weight off the nosewheel. With the stick forward in a tailwind, the elevator is being pushed down by the wind, thereby decreasing the weight on the nosewheel. If you didn't use down elevator the wind could get under the tail, pushing it up, and thereby putting more weight on the nosewheel.
Make sense?
This is one of those cases where you need to use your judgement. If the tailwind is very light, it's probably better not to "dive away" because, in that case, you would simply be adding weight to the nosewheel. It doesn't matter if you do that in Cessnas, but it might in an RV on rough ground. I don't know.
Hope this helps.
LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
Yes, and I also realize I've been doing it wrong... again, partly because of my obsessive desire to taxi with full stick aft. 
seems to me that in trying to swing the tail into a very strong tailwind the vertical stabilizer is going to offer the most resistance. by pointing the rudder into the wind the area of the vertical stabilizer would be reduced, and certainly you would want it straight as you turn directly downwind.
does anyone know of any incidents where an RV got flipped in the wind?
does anyone know of any incidents where an RV got flipped in the wind?
It all depends on the relative wind over the tail. If your taxi speed is greater than the tailwind, the relative wind moves front to back, and aft stick pushes the tail down and the nose up. If the tailwind exceeds your taxi speed, the relative wind is from back to front, and the control action is reversed; forward stick will push the tail down, nose up. Same logic with the ailerons-hold the upwind wing down with normal stick movement when the relative wind is front to back, but reverse the stick when wind is back to front.
alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
Of course you are right, Bob. I would add one additional factor. Relative wind also depends on how much prop slipstream is involved, ie. how much throttle one is using during taxi.
Thus, I think the long and short is that the natural inclination to adopt and teach arbitrary rules is a bit simplistic. It depends on whether you are tailwheel or nosewheel, what the relative wind is doing, what you might need to do to protect a nosewheel, etc. As my former Alaska bush pilot/tailwheel instructor commented to me, one should use whatever control input is necessary to keep the tail down and the wings level. That's all.
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wrongway john
Well Known Member
Last month I was in 35-40 mph winds in my 6. Normally I?m a fair weather flyer, and sure was pleasantly surprised how well it handled the winds while taxiing. It showed no tendency whatsoever to try to lift a wing.
Full confession time ....
Me too.
I've taxied in x-winds 20G26 ... that big sail on the aft end of a Nine makes it quite interesting. Took a lot more lateral braking control than I had figured. There was, however, no tendency toward wing lift.
Yes, and I also realize I've been doing it wrong... again, partly because of my obsessive desire to taxi with full stick aft.
Me too.
I've taxied in x-winds 20G26 ... that big sail on the aft end of a Nine makes it quite interesting. Took a lot more lateral braking control than I had figured. There was, however, no tendency toward wing lift.
acroflyrgirl
Well Known Member
Am I alone or is the text so small due to the huge pic on page two here that reading the postings are, ahh, challenging?
PS Beautiful pic even if there is no RV in sight.
PS Beautiful pic even if there is no RV in sight.
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turbo
Well Known Member
Am I alone or is the text so small due to the huge pic on page two here that reading the postings are, ahh, challenging?
PS Beautiful pic even if there is no RV in sight.
Pic problem fixed. Carry on.
apkp777
Well Known Member
Keeping in mind that a "tailwind" does not begin until "windspeed exceeds groundspeed". So unless I have a tailwind greater that 10-15 kts, I mostly consider it nill. I generally always keep the stick aft (except on grass in a tailwheel) and put the "stick parallel with the wind" and "opposite rudder". Just like it is while landing in a crosswind.
To the O.P. You do want aileron deflection while taxiing. Even though you don't experience "wing lift", you still want consistent technique, using the same same control inputs with a crosswind on the ground as you would in the air. I have flown out of Hood River when the winds were howling. I was in a 172 and like you, much more concerned about taxiing after landing than I was the landing itself. If I remember it was about a 30kt wind, mostly cross. I guess a "max crosswind" limit for taxiing will be one of those lessons where you get the "test first, then the lesson".
To the O.P. You do want aileron deflection while taxiing. Even though you don't experience "wing lift", you still want consistent technique, using the same same control inputs with a crosswind on the ground as you would in the air. I have flown out of Hood River when the winds were howling. I was in a 172 and like you, much more concerned about taxiing after landing than I was the landing itself. If I remember it was about a 30kt wind, mostly cross. I guess a "max crosswind" limit for taxiing will be one of those lessons where you get the "test first, then the lesson".
memories
TTD has pretty strong winds sometimes... Years ago there used to be a restaurant named The Red Baron on the field. I can remember "hovering" a C-150 in front of the restaurant (over the runway obviously) and waving at the folks...
The upwind took forever into the wind. There was no crosswind or down wind leg. Just one hard 360 degree turn and viola, I was back on final...
Good times...
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread topic...
TTD has pretty strong winds sometimes... Years ago there used to be a restaurant named The Red Baron on the field. I can remember "hovering" a C-150 in front of the restaurant (over the runway obviously) and waving at the folks...
The upwind took forever into the wind. There was no crosswind or down wind leg. Just one hard 360 degree turn and viola, I was back on final...
Good times...
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread topic...
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