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LEDs Just to add to the debate

S

Shredder

I'm New Here
Hi, I am a new member here and although I am building a RANS S-6S (for bush type flying) have read a lot on VAF. I am considering different Vans options for a future project and I hope you don't mind me adding to the discussion here. I really enjoy the debate here over the new LED options and the work Dan did comparing 2 options. Here is what I sent to the LED companies.

I am posting this letter on various forums and will post the replies... It's time to put up or shut up!

To: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
Jeff, Dean, and Christian

(Note: I am e-mailing this to all three LED companies that are involved in so much discussion on the various homebuilder forums. I chose Jeff and Dean because they have been part of the discussions. Christian, I chose your name for lack of a better place to start. Feel free to pass this on to whomever you choose.)

My name is Bill Shaffer and I am in the last 1-2 months of building a RANS S-6S. I am at the point where I must choose my lights. The new Whelen LED product is causing quite a stir among homebuilders and builders, as well as LED competitors, are taking note.

I read a lot on the RANS and VAF forums and I am intrigued by all the discussion. Like many experimental builders, TSOs are a guidance that does not always drive my decision, but offers guidelines to which I will not stray too far from. Hence the amateur homebuilt experimental category.

Now to the question at hand.

Which LEDs are the best bang for the buck, and which are just plain the brightest? I would love to see 3 planes with the Whelens, Aveos, and Aeros sitting next to each other, during daylight and at night, with lights on. That would answer 98% of the builder's questions. Probably not going to happen.

So I am wondering how close I can get to that? For now I am looking for information. Apples to apples numbers. What do you have to offer?

I have also considered trying to set up a visual, video recorded, unbiased test for potential customers to view video and compare the different choices from a purely visual observation. A simple test of lights mounted on a test bed. Would you be interested in participating in such a comparison?

Please share information as to why one should choose your product. Also include future price changes/products that may influence buyers. I will post this letter and your responses on various forums for others to see. I appreciate your honest, direct responses. Lawyers need not participate!

Thank you, Bill Shaffer
27 Year pilot from F-15s, to major airlines, to small experimentals. It's all fun.
 
Bill,

I wish you luck with your excercise! I would be amazed if all three gentlemen participate. Jeff and Dean have been very active here on VAF. I was very surprized when Jeff announced recently that the new LED NAV/Strobe combination from Whelen doesn't meet FAA requirements.

It would be nice to have the vendors at OSH or SnF compete head to head. Unfortunately, I think the best comparisons have been done from Dan. I am doubtful that we'll get anymore. But I would be happy to be proven wrong.

bob
 
Hello Bill,

I presume that your question is mostly regarding the LED strobes since the LED nav and position light requirements are not as difficult to meet.

Strobes are measured in units of effective candela. Effective candela are determined using the equation EffectiveCandela = Candela-Seconds/(0.2 + Ton)

Candela seconds are units of candela integrated over the duration of the strobe flash pattern, and Ton is the total on time of the flash. The equation above was determined by human factors experiments early in the 20th century.

Prior to the 1980?s, aircraft strobes required 100 effective candela in the plane of the aircraft. This was raised to a minimum of 400 effective candela which is the current regulation.

The higher the effective candela, the brighter a strobe will appear to the human eye.

The AeroLEDs Pulsar NSP and Suntail products exceed the 400 effective candela requirement in the horizontal plane, and are eligible for meeting the FAA TSO. We are in the process of doing the testing and documentation for obtaining this TSO.

The Pulsar EXP only hits about 300 effective candela, and is as low as 100 effective candela in some directions. This is why it is experimental only.

For your RANs, I would recommend the Pulsar NSP since they provide nav/strobe/position lights on the wingtips in a compact package with light output that meets the FARs.

I have not measured all of the competitor products, so I can?t speak for them. I know that some models may meet the 400 effective candela output level, but I also know that many of them don?t.

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
 
Dean,

Thanks for the quick response. (For those keeping score, he also e-mailed me the same message.)

Although strobe requirements are harder to meet, I still am interested on the comparing the brightness of nav and position lights. I am looking at the whole package and how close they are to meeting TSO/FARs.

Thanks for the information so far. Keep it coming if you have more, including nav/position.

Thanks, Bill
 
From the Aveo CEO. If you want the pics I can forward the e-mail. Just ask.
Bill
From: Christian Nielsen ([email protected])
Sent: Thu 1/28/10 2:08 PM
To: Bill Shaffer ([email protected])

Attachments: 18 attachments | Download all attachments (3.4 MB)
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Dear Bill,

Thanks for taking the time to write. Aveo prides itself on direct interface with our customer base and fans, and we encourage such inquiries as it gives us an opportunity to explain our products and company philosophy. When someone buys an Aveo product, it is a purchase of many, many hours of design, engineering and dedicated production as well as quality components and high tech manufacture.

I must first apologize for the lack of knowledge on my part of said forums that you referenced in your email. I am not a member or reader of such things due to time constraints of running my companies, so I am really not aware of what comments and discussions you are referring to -- so I will only stick to strictly engineering data and scientific facts as they seem to be more relevant to your query than marketing hype anyway.

You will find some of the answers you are looking for on my blog entries this coming week at www.aveoengineering.com. My entries of late have been limited due to a rather severe rotator cuff/biceps tendon rupture injury which is even impacting my typing right now, so I ask that you bear with any typos, etc. I also am taking my time in writing you so that I can incorporate as much as I can possibly say on the subject.

You asked me my opinion of the new Whelen light -- actually it disappoints me as Whelen has such market capture that I expected a better product from them. After a review of it, I fail to see how it can be "exciting" other than as a very inexpensive light..... Why is this my opinion? Having invested a couple hundred thousand dollars into establishing the leading led-array testing laboratory in all of Europe and one of the top labs in the world (you can see this incredible equipment at our website, http://www.strojkovengineering.com/...d-array-measurement-and-testing-lab/index.php ), we know what we are talking about and can back it up with empirical measurements.

You can look right at the Whelen website and gather the facts you need.

Look at Whelen's photo of their rudder light and you will see that it has only 9 leds, and their wing light has only 13 leds for all functions (nav-strobe), so when they write in their pdf brochure such a claim as the "same performance" as competitors' lights that are higher priced it is a claim they simply cannot back up with performance measurements.

You can see what I consider to be an outrageous claim -- Why pay double (or more) for the same performance -- in the yellow type below in Whelen's pdf on their website:


Picture28.png

PoliceLine5.jpg

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Lightinng

I sent you a pm, I would like to see the pics.

I am very interested in a complete lighting package. I have looked at all the various mixes and it gives me a headache. I expect to go with some company's complete set up, with rudder and taxi and landing etc etc. Seems nowadays that the package of enclosed lighting all from one manufacturer is a great way to go.

One of these days something will present itself as the best solution given my budget and interest in the led stuff.

Thanks for your work on this. Likely many of us in the same boat.
 
Interesting......

On Christian's blog he stated: "We are willing to offer free measurements in our labs if they cannot afford it. I own it, so I can offer it. All they need do is send us their lights and we can take measurements in our state-of-the-art lab, video record the entire testing and post it on our website and youtube for the world to see. We will show direct side-by-side videos of our lights and theirs, and we will post the graphs of the output from the advanced goniophotometer equipment. It should be clear from these videos and real-time recorded measurements what the truth is and what the marketing hype is. BILL, I INVITE YOU TO COME VISIT ME AND PARTICIPATE IN SAME AS AN UNBIASED WITNESS."

Wouldn't it be nice to get all the vendors in the same lab for compartive measurements? I know that's just a dream, but it would be nice to see an Aveo vs AeroLeds comparison. I don't even consider Whelen a contender at the moment.

bob
 
rleffler said:
Interesting......

On Christian's blog he stated: "We are willing to offer free measurements in our labs if they cannot afford it. I own it, so I can offer it. All they need do is send us their lights and we can take measurements in our state-of-the-art lab, video record the entire testing and post it on our website and youtube for the world to see. We will show direct side-by-side videos of our lights and theirs, and we will post the graphs of the output from the advanced goniophotometer equipment. It should be clear from these videos and real-time recorded measurements what the truth is and what the marketing hype is. BILL, I INVITE YOU TO COME VISIT ME AND PARTICIPATE IN SAME AS AN UNBIASED WITNESS."

Wouldn't it be nice to get all the vendors in the same lab for compartive measurements? I know that's just a dream, but it would be nice to see an Aveo vs AeroLeds comparison. I don't even consider Whelen a contender at the moment.

bob
Click to expand...

Bob,

It isn't necessary to use the same lab. Any certified photometric facility will produce accurate results. We are in the process of testing our products at a certified lab for submittal to the FAA as part of our TSO data package...

I am not really interested in sending any of our products to Aveo not matter what "free" testing they offer.

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
 
I just got back from a trip and found I had not received the whole e-mail from Christian at Aveo. Here is the link to his blog and, as opposed to any implication that I may have some agenda, I only want to find a good light for a good deal. A great light for a good deal would be even better. What's a good deal? Anyway...

http://www.aveoengineering.com/blogs/Aviation/

Bill
 
AveoEngineering's AveoFlash Aircraft Lights

In regards to Bill Shaffer's postings about LED aircraft lights, and Christian Nielsen's response thereto, everyone should please be aware that Christian's response that was posted here was INCOMPLETE - his response "cut off" at the first (of several) diagrams. For the complete reply, with diagrams and other technical information, you can go to the AveoEngineering blog at:
http://www.aveoengineering.com/blogs/Aviation/?p=144

Here is a thought for interested aircraft owners / builders to contemplate:

Like Bill Shaffer posits in his posting, anyone who will perform a realistic, unbiased "apples to apples" comparison of LED aircraft lights produced by Whelen, AeroLEDs, Kuntzleman, AveoEngineering, and whatever other manufacturers you choose, comparing such factors as candela output, power consumption, aerodynamic drag, water / weather / shock resistance, weight, cost, and warranty, etc., will, in my considered opinion, almost inevitably come to the conclusion that the AveoFlash lights by AveoEngineering are, by far, clearly superior to any other aircraft lighting solution on the market today. That is exactly why I chose to be a Dealer for AveoEngineering!! (Yes, I admit it and I am darned well proud of it!!)

Anyone who wishes to contact me with any questions you may have, please feel free to do so.

Stan Smith
AveoMidAmerica
Authorized AveoEngineering Dealer
 
Requirements

Decades ago civil government authorities created a performance standard for the categories of exterior lighting on aircraft. The overriding purpose of exterior aircraft lighting is to provide a uniform safety of flight for all aircraft. The standard for regulatory lighting means a Gulfstream has the same opportunity to see and avoid as a Cessna 172 does. Manufacturers cannot pick and choose their own methodology for evaluating light output, or hand pick pieces of the lighting standard that allows them to call their light compliant, approved or certified. When a Position light is combined with an Anti-Collision light in a single assembly ALL aspects of the product must comply with ALL aspects of the standard. Products that are able to comply with all aspects of both a Position light (as defined in FAR's) and an Anti-Collision light (as defined in the FAR's) may submit their data package for issuance of an FAA TSO. The 'how bright is it question" or "is product A brighter than product B" becomes thousands of test points that demonstrate to the FAA the product complies. The Technical Standard Order is the FAA mechanism to independently verify the product meets the minimum performance standards, ?close enough? to the FAR?s just doesn?t cut it with the FAA.

Discussions to the performance of non TSO exterior lighting products should therefore be left to the community of people who willingly choose unapproved products opting for their own standard and assuming their own risk.

We've offered a price sensitive product for a price sensitive market, the MicroBurst cannot be TSO?d and is not TSO?d or advertised as TSO?d.

Minimum performance standards exist for safety of flight reasons only. ALL US registered aircraft without exception, flying at night, should only be using lighting that meets the requirements per the FAR?s. If the claims of alternate lighting solutions are so far superior to the approved ones, it stands to reason they?d also have the TSO letter to accompany the product. Look for the TSO Documentation as a minimum. It?s available from the FAA (website) or from the manufacturer, if they have it.

In order to provide a valid ?apples to apples? comparison, one of the Whelen TSO approved products would be better suited to test along side the Aeroleds & Aveo products that claim to exceed the FAR requirements.

A well versed quote below by Vic Syracuse was on a prior post and sums it up.

?Your limitations clearly state that you must be in compliance with the FAR's in certain areas, the relevant one here being lights for night flight. Right now we have a lot of freedom with our airplanes. Let's not get too cocky and decide no-one is watching therefore "I" can be the judge of what is right. Keep in mind that others are sharing the airspace with you, and everyone is expected to abide by the rules?.


Jeff Argersinger
Whelen
 
Prospective

Jeff

Let's back up. The reason for lights is to be seen. The more I can make myself be seen, the happier I am. TSO is not only a question of meeting FAA requirements, but also money and time to get TSO'd. TSO is required for a certified aircraft, not so much for the group you now address. Because I'm an experimental aircraft builder, I'm going to look for products that meet FAA requirements and my requirements (which are higher in this case). I realize that common sense is not so common, but brighter is better in my book. Back to the question, which is brighter?

Peter Richmond
 
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N787KV said:
Back to the question, which is brighter?

Peter Richmond
Click to expand...


Peter,

In another thread, Jeff stated:

So as to not mislead anyone on VAF, the Microburst? products were designed to fill a gap in our product line for Experimental/Light Sport/Ultra-light aircraft lighting. Many pilots simply want an affordable lighting system to provide added safety even though they will never fly at night with their aircraft, or, as indicated in some discussions on VAF, do not expect the ?lighting police? to come looking for them, therefore either build their own lights which would have no approvals, or purchase un-approved lights.

The Mircroburst? lights are designed and built to the same practices as the many Whelen TSO approved products; however they are for experimental use and will not comply with all aspects of FAR/TSO requirements. We are not marketing, or selling them with claims of FAR/TSO compliance. They are their own entity within our product line. The mounting hole pattern is slightly different than our legacy products, however will fall within the same footprint.

The benchmark of performance for ?legal? night flying is a position/anti-collision light system that is TSO approved. If a product is not marked as TSO approved (where an approval exists), it should be assumed that it does not comply with all of the TSO/FAR requirements, or, data should be supplied with each unit sold to the end user substantiating the claims of full TSO compliance.

Apparently Whelen believes there is a market with experimental owners that believe that meeting the FARs for lighting isn't important. My personal opinion is that some may purchase this product based upon Whelen's reputation and not fully understanding that this product doesn't meet their expecations of meeting FAA requirements.

Personally, I'm looking forward to both AeroLEDs and Aveo releasing test data indicating that they meet the FAA requirements. Most of us don't necessarily care about TSO certification, but we do care that the specifications are met or exceeded.

bob
 
Bob, Thank You for your input.

"Apparently Whelen believes there is a market with experimental owners that believe that meeting the FARs for lighting isn't important"

Many years of walking the flight line at Oshkosh & Sun N Fun and observing all of the various unapproved and/or ?hand rolled? lighting systems installed, it did become apparent that meeting the FARs was not necessarily a priority for some individuals.

"Most of us don't necessarily care about TSO certification, but we do care that the specifications are met or exceeded."

A TSO is not required, even with certified aircraft, but the data to substantiate a light meets the FAR requirements is. Whelen takes the approach to TSO the majority of our products to eliminate the need to supply data with every product to show compliance.

When a manufacturer makes claims of meeting or exceeding the FAR/TSO requirements, the assumption would be that they have tested the product to verify those claims. If the product was tested, shouldn?t the data (chromaticity, photometric, and environmental) be available or supplied with the product if there is no TSO? If not, the validity of FAR/TSO compliance should be questioned.

It boils down to the general aviation community being able to rely on the manufacturer to provide accurate information regarding the ability of their product(s) to perform in accordance with ALL aspects of the FAR requirements if they are advertised as meeting them.

Jeff Argersinger
Whelen
 
LED winner

Well, winner for my choice anyway.

AveoFlash Ultra

Why? Well, when I set out to try and do an apples to apples comparison I had no idea it would be so hard. People talking around TSOs and various other things made me question various claims. I had envisioned a head on comparison with video so we, the builders, could SEE the difference and make a decision, along with TSO approval or not, which we wanted for the price being asked. Not going to happen. Nobody is going to send their product to another company for comparison, and probably not to a third party, to compare head on. Lack of trust, or lack of confidence in their product. I don't really know for sure. Maybe this year at Oshkosh we can get 3 planes next to each other for a head on visual comparison.

So why AveoFlash?

It came down to 3 things.

1. Christian Nielsen, CEO of Aveoengineering, took the time to write the most complete response. Despite a misunderstanding when I posted only part of what he wrote, which was ALL I had received in the e-mail, they have communicated with me the most.....by far. We cleared up the misunderstanding and they have been helpful. Karen Nielson, President Aveo Engineering USA and US/Latin America distributor, also wrote me many times with helpful info.

2. TSO/Bang for the Buck. Not that I care about the TSO approval itself (experimental), but what is says about them and their product. They have proven they meet a measurable standard. Without something else to hammer a nail in, I will use that as a level of quality I want to be close to.

Christian makes a good case with the simple count the LEDs argument. Optics are a harder animal to judge but you can see which lights made higher quality optics. I do want a bright light for a reasonable price. I felt Aveos met MY requirement for how bright I wanted a light(absence video/data to compare better) for the dollar. Simply my humble opinion.

3. Looks. We are all vain to an extent and IMHO Aveo has the best looking light I can put on my hard work. Ultra looks the best to me. (side note:I would be tempted by the Andromeda, which is gorgeous, but I doubt it will be a mere $100 jump. Over a grand I would expect. Price not released yet)

So there you have it. My choice is made but my quest for apples to apples comparison was incomplete. I had to make a choice because my plane needs lights.

AveoFlash Ultras

Thanks, Bill

PS. I have zero connection to any of the companies.
 
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One more thing I would like to add is that Aveo is designed and manufactured in Eastern Europe, while both Whelen and AeroLEDs products are designed and manufactured in the USA. I don't know if that matters much anymore, but it may factor into some people's decisions.
 
I am new to this site but i have been following LED debates on other forums and have to agree with Shredder, after viewing various amounts of conflicting data, that Aveo are my preference at this time but I will wait for Sun "N" Fun to make my final decision.
I have to say that the response to Deans post on the Aveo blog site seems wholly appropriate and i cant add anything more to it! :eek:

http://www.aveoengineering.com/blogs/Aviation/

I also believe that if the lights don't "Meet or exceed" then don't fit them to your Vans, as whoever owns the aircraft next may pick up the tab for you saving a few bucks!:(
 
Really... you think that blog post was appropriate? I think it was pretty over-the-top and read a heck of a lot into a simple statement that I made. I got a good laugh out of it. Calling me "Mr. Bean" is pretty sophomoric.

Incidentally, the AeroLEDs Suntail and Pulsar NS series light do exceed the TSO requirements, and we expect to have TSO approval from the FAA by this summer on both of those products.


VansManiac said:
I am new to this site but i have been following LED debates on other forums and have to agree with Shredder, after viewing various amounts of conflicting data, that Aveo are my preference at this time but I will wait for Sun "N" Fun to make my final decision.
I have to say that the response to Deans post on the Aveo blog site seems wholly appropriate and i cant add anything more to it! :eek:

http://www.aveoengineering.com/blogs/Aviation/

I also believe that if the lights don't "Meet or exceed" then don't fit them to your Vans, as whoever owns the aircraft next may pick up the tab for you saving a few bucks!:(
Click to expand...
 
WOW!!

. . . And as far as comparing products ladies and gentlemen, let me give you a big tip-off, from now on in our display booths at every trade show we will put the competitors' products right next to ours for side-by-side comparison and we will have a $10,000 goniophotometer-calibrated fluxmeter there for YOU ALL to do your own measurements of the FACTS. . .
Click to expand...
All I can say is WOW! After going to http://www.aveoengineering.com/blogs/Aviation/ and reading the post I am really taken aback by all the passion involved in this hot topic. I am not quite sure what to think about all the mud slinging going on. And all over lights no less. Again, I say, WOW!

I guess one good thing to come out of all of this debating is the above statement. Hopefully those of us who will attend Sun n Fun will finally get some semblance of a side by side comparison. This will be a Sun n Fun I am anxious to attend.

p.s. Jeff Argersinger, please check your PM's.
 
Whelen has every advantage and blows it.

Aveo has nice stuff, but doesn't seem to offer a "left, right, tail" system tailored for RV's.

The AeroLeds RV package is over $1100, which is only possible because of Whelen's pricing for TSO product.

Sheesh.
 
May I ask a simple question?

Are there ANY LED Nav/Position/Strobe combinations that currently have TSO certificates? In searching through the TSO database, I could not find any.

I understand that in building an Experimental, the letter of the law is that my lights do not need to have TSO approval.

For those manufacturers that post here (and I appreciate very much your involvement) which models have you submitted for TSO, and what is the expected date of that approval? If I were to purchase lights now based on statements like "meets XYZ requirements" and then later you do not achieve TSO approval because you do not meet those requirements, will you refund my purchase price?
 
hooked up the new WHELEN LED's

Thanks to Jeff from WHELEN I have a set of their LED nav/strobe/position lights to test. I have seen all of the other manufacturer's products before at SNF and OSH but have not had an opportunity to examine them first hand outside the display booths at those shows.

I now have the WHELEN set to evaluate first hand on my plane. In the past two weeks I have wired them up on my RV9A project. Although they are not permanently mounted in the wingtips or the tail I do have them functional. Here are my thoughts.

I have a 1966 Cessna 172 sitting side by side with my RV project in the hangar. After wiring the lights up and placing them on the wings in relative proximity to where they will be when permanently installed, I then turned them on.

Here is the initial thoughts on first power up:

Thought #1
They are bright!

Thought #2
I really don't care if they are not TSO'd. You see, once I turned them on, I then walked 10 feet over to my GA 172 and turned on the nav lights and strobe lights and turned off the lights in my hangar. There is absolutely no comparison between the TSO spec meeting lights on my 172 and those on the RV. The LED's blow them out of the water in brightness! Especially the tail nav/strobe light.

Thought #3
I am sure there are other issues in addition to brightness that "those in the know" are concerned about, but the truth is, the way our wingtips are designed, and because of the general construction of these lights, there is little doubt in my mind they will outperform any existing incandescent lights currently used on GA aircraft.

Thought # 4
At this point I don't care what the FAA specs say about lighting. They need to go back and re-evaluate their requirements or, if they are not interested in keeping their requirements current, get out of the business of telling us what "must be" all together.

It is clear to me that if the FAA is not going to allow an LED light to be used on our aircraft because it did not meet their bureaucratic documentation requirements that define a "legal" light, then they have not served the people of the United States well at all.

I know there are some government bureaucrats reading these posts so I want to say to you: Hey, how about catching up with the current times and recognize there are individuals, groups, businesses out there doing a better job of protecting the general public than you are with your archaic rules and regulations!!! GET UP TO SPEED WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD OR GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!

Ok, the last statement is my opinion. If I offended any Politically Correct Minded people out there, well, my apologies. I am sure if my post is too offensive the moderators will remove it from the forum. Which, by the way, I feel is entirely their right to do so. Since I know full well, they would in no way be violating any "Rights to Free Speech" in doing so.

So these are my .02 on the issue from my initial first hand experience.

Live Long And Prosper!
 
Actually...

krwalsh said:
I understand that in building an Experimental, the letter of the law is that my lights do not need to have TSO approval.
Click to expand...

the requirement specs for lighting on experimental aircraft is exactly the same as for "standard" certificated aircraft. The requirements are set down in 91.205 which applies to experimental amateur-built aircraft when operated at night by way of the operating limitations.

Now for the other side of the coin, I've never heard of anyone being "gigged" for not having "legal" lights if they look sufficient.
 
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Mel said:
the requirement specs for lighting on experimental aircraft is exactly the same as for "standard" certificated aircraft. The requirements are set down in 91.205 which applies to experimental amateur-built aircraft when operated at night by way of the operating limitations.
Click to expand...
You know Mel, this is exactly the point of my rant above. If it is blatantly obvious to anyone who has the ability to see that an airplane can be seen using Light X manufactured by Company A, why should the plane have to meet some archaic requirement set forth by a government bureaucratic entity?

Oh, and Mel, that was a rhetorical question. I did not expect you to supply the answer. :)
 
AeroLEDs is in the process of putting together a TSO submittal package for our Pulsar NS series and Suntail LED nav/position/strobe lights. We will provide an update on the status of our TSO application once we have submitted it to the FAA.
 
Thanks for the review of the Whelen LED nav/strobe/position lights, Steve. The only downside I really see is if a person who has them gets into an accident while flying after dark. Could the insurance company then deny the claim because the lights weren't TSOed?
 
rvator51 said:
Thanks for the review of the Whelen LED nav/strobe/position lights, Steve. The only downside I really see is if a person who has them gets into an accident while flying after dark. Could the insurance company then deny the claim because the lights weren't TSOed?
Click to expand...
The only answer I have is: If the accident were not related to the lights or lighting in any way then I would sure hope it would not be a factor in determining whether they would cover the accident. Of course, I know that is not necessarily how the insurance industry works but, it should be.
 
rvator51 said:
Thanks for the review of the Whelen LED nav/strobe/position lights, Steve. The only downside I really see is if a person who has them gets into an accident while flying after dark. Could the insurance company then deny the claim because the lights weren't TSOed?
Click to expand...

TSO isn't the issue. TSO certified devices aren't required in experimentals. However, devices that meet the requirements of the FARs are required. As Mel stated, it will be very difficult on a ramp check to determine if your lights meet the FARs.

Hypothetically, if an insurance company finds out you have devices that have been publically declared to not meet the FARs by the manufacturer, I guess that could give them an out on a claim. Whether they would go to that level of effort is a different discussion.
 
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